84 replies to this topic

[Murdalizer]

Korm, on 20 December 2012 - 02:17 AM, said:

Sadly people are still using lrms as press one button to win. I really hope they will get hurt by ECM.

Use cover much?...hmm how about AMS?(which could use a wee buff)....you know why lrms seems so OP now? its because of the ECM, it made people play like a bunch of jackasses

The ECM is bad game design, thats a fact!

Mack1 is 100% correct, i might as well boot up BF3, find a 64 man, 10000 ticket game....thats what this game is turning into, thinking mans shooter my ***.

i even saw someone suggest respawns in this game,..hmm like thats gonna make people play smart.

[Roadbuster]

Let TAG take up an energy hardpoint, but enable the mech firing it to lock on the target, even if it's effected by ECM.
The increase of the TAG lasers range is a very nice thing.

And PGI should think about removing the stacking of ECMs, or at least reduce it.
Currently the team with more ECM has an advantage because they can counter opposing ECM while keeping another in disrupt mode.
A ECM in counter mode should counter all ECM effects in its area of effect (100m for example), no matter if there is 1 or 8 ECM mechs near it.

[Lupus Aurelius]

TAG is not a counter to ECM.

LOS, and has to be pinpointed on the target mech and held there for as long as it takes missiles to hit, requiring a weapon hardpoint and has to have a key permanently depressed to work, and is only effective on 1 mech at a time.

vs

AOE that runs 24/7, all you have to do is toggle between counter and disrupt, can be placed in any 2 crits and weights 1.5 tons, requires no targeting, and is effective on all mechs within the 180 m radius.

[Inappropriate1191]

Inappropriate1191, on 20 December 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

ECM is fine where it is after the patch. I get to use LRMs now, even without TAG, but just simply have to use them more strategically and have to work with scouts. It's not as bad as it was a few weeks ago, where everyone had to brawl, and no one used streaks or LRM. Now, if only they'd fix the gauss rifle's explosion chance, and make it to where both the gauss and the AC/20 wasn't so damn fragile. Swear to God, both guns feel like as though they die the minute the enemy looks at them, and I haven't even had my armor melted off, yet.

I find myself having to repeat myself. Once again, the fact that I can actually -use- my LRMs in both 8-man and PUGs proves that ECM isn't the iWin button it once was. Before the patch, LRMs were worthless. I couldn't get a lock on anyone. Now, I can use LRMs without TAG. Something changed.

Also, once again, BUFF MAH GUNZ! MAH GUNZ DIE TO GENTLE BREEZES AND DIRTY LOOKS! BUFF 'EM! NAO!

[Apoc1138]

Noth, on 20 December 2012 - 07:43 AM, said:

In lore the Null signature system does this:

It effectively does what ECM is doing right now, making it hard to track at anything but short range.

no... I can still see the heat from a mech at 1000+ meters

we all have free C3 computers;

Quote

Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, andNarc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming.

this is exactly what it is doing in game - preventing targeting and guided weapons, and disrupting communication
the only thing we don't have is that BAP equipped mechs should get a warning to say that it is being jammed by ECM (which is a given if you can see heat in heat mode but not target)

Null Signature;

Quote

The null signature system features heat baffles that mask the 'Mech's heat sinks and reduce its infrared signature.

I can still see them in heat vision, so no it isn't Null Sig

arguably, the only thing that ECM is doing that it shouldn't, is screw with TAG, as it's not specifically mentioned

[Codejack]

Vassago Rain, on 20 December 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

That's good.
Now explain to me why my atlas keeps dying to TAG and LRMs in 20 seconds, even as I'm covered in my invincibility shroud.

Try moving.

[Noth]

Apoc1138, on 20 December 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

no... I can still see the heat from a mech at 1000+ meters

we all have free C3 computers;



this is exactly what it is doing in game - preventing targeting and guided weapons, and disrupting communication
the only thing we don't have is that BAP equipped mechs should get a warning to say that it is being jammed by ECM (which is a given if you can see heat in heat mode but not target)

Null Signature;


I can still see them in heat vision, so no it isn't Null Sig

arguably, the only thing that ECM is doing that it shouldn't, is screw with TAG, as it's not specifically mentioned

ECM never prevented locks or being picked up by sensors when you were outside the bubble. It only prevent the effects of various added electronics such as artemis, TAG, NARC, BAP etc. It didn't do a thing to the stock systems. IT also never lowered detection range. So it is doing quite a bit it never did. The only thing that lowered detection range was the null signature system and stealth armor and they took up much more space than an ECM and produced excess heat and disallowed the ability to mount certain special electronics.

Edited by Noth, 20 December 2012 - 08:17 AM.

[Apoc1138]

it isn't lowering detection range, if you have eyes you can still detect mechs, it's just stopping the big red box and missile locks... if you can lock you can fire missiles, so how do you explain that in the rules it says that it affects guided weapons, which is what LRM's are in MWO

if you are going to remove stuff from what it does in game now, then I want ghost targets added

Edited by Apoc1138, 20 December 2012 - 08:24 AM.

[Felix]

Apoc1138, on 20 December 2012 - 08:22 AM, said:

it isn't lowering detection range, if you have eyes you can still detect mechs, it's just stopping the big red box and missile locks... if you can lock you can fire missiles, so how do you explain that in the rules it says that it affects guided weapons, which is what LRM's are in MWO

if you are going to remove stuff from what it does in game now, then I want ghost targets added

Which its not supposed to do, its supposed to make it harder to hit with locked on LRMs, not make lock ons impossible.

The PGI devs just dont know what they are doing.

[Noth]

Apoc1138, on 20 December 2012 - 08:22 AM, said:

it isn't lowering detection range, if you have eyes you can still detect mechs, it's just stopping the big red box and missile locks... if you can lock you can fire missiles, so how do you explain that in the rules it says that it affects guided weapons, which is what LRM's are in MWO

That is lowering detection range. detection range refers to sensors. It effects guides weapons not by denying lock but by lessening their accuracy. Only the Angel ECM denied locks and that was only SSRMs that were denied.

[Felix]

Hell, one good way to balance ECM in its current form (Even though in its current form its laughably over powered) would be to have it effect both sides equally, if you are in an ECM bubble of ANYONE friendly or enemy, it murders your radar and lock on.

Anything powerful enough to spoof radar THAT effectively should be having effects on everyone.

[Snuglninja]

Sorry to hurt your feelings rain but if you are being killed in 20 seconds to lrms with ecm and ams you got a whole lot worse problems then we can discuss on this thread.
Wouldn't care if they made a.c. or gaus with min range but I understand something's have to be sacrificed for a video game.Ecm just goes way out there.
I play this game because I was told by the dev through out the year about how they were making a battletech/mechwarrior SIM, and listening to interviews and reading blogs about how much this franchise meant to them and how they were going to do their best to keep as close to tt and canon as possible. Ecm is neither.
It's ok to like brawling it's ok to like lock ons. I don't know why people think it has to be one way or the other. But if brawling is so great and Ssrm are easy cheesy thorn why for I see so many ecm mechs using them?

[Apoc1138]

Noth, on 20 December 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:

That is lowering detection range. detection range refers to sensors. It effects guides weapons not by denying lock but by lessening their accuracy. Only the Angel ECM denied locks and that was only SSRMs that were denied.

you can still fire LRM's at the target, but it's more difficult to hit because you don't have a lock, you just have to lead the target like you do with every other weapon in the game
reads the same way to me

Edited by Apoc1138, 20 December 2012 - 08:33 AM.

[Noth]

Apoc1138, on 20 December 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

you can still fire LRM's at the target, but it's more difficult to hit because you don't have a lock, you just have to lead the target like you do with every other weapon in the game
reads the same way to me

Uh no, effecting the accuracy would be widening the spread and/or increasing time it takes for them to lock on. You will only hit non moving targets with dumdfired LRMs that you see at which point other direct fire weapons are better. It effectively removes the LRM factor.

[Felix]

Apoc1138, on 20 December 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

you can still fire LRM's at the target, but it's more difficult to hit because you don't have a lock, you just have to lead the target like you do with every other weapon in the game
reads the same way to me

yeah that doesn't work at anything longer than about 200 meters, as they move slow enough that people can see them coming for enough time to walk, casually, in a different direction to dodge the incoming missiles. And if they are THAT close already to where you can lead them, they can get inside the min range in a second or so and make all subsequent vollys useless.

You want to balance it THAT way you gotta make them as fast as a damn gauss rifle so that they dont have a chance to dodge a shot that is lead.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

[Sol Fin]

Noth, on 20 December 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:

That is lowering detection range. detection range refers to sensors. It effects guides weapons not by denying lock but by lessening their accuracy. Only the Angel ECM denied locks and that was only SSRMs that were denied.

Maybe the problem is that devs can't implement the mechanic where missiles that get into ECM bubble will spread more and smaller amount will actually hit? It might explain why such weird first implementation was done...

[Apoc1138]

time to lock on =/= accuracy
having to learn how to lead fire with LRM's == accuracy

[Snuglninja]

No apoc it doesn't make it harder to hit with lock ons it just kills Artemis and bap narc bonuses. So if it was in mwo like that a mech inside the bubble being shot with lrms would a wide spread nurfing them a lot then ams would reduce them even more.

[Noth]

Sol Fin, on 20 December 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

Maybe the problem is that devs can't implement the mechanic where missiles that get into ECM bubble will spread more and smaller amount will actually hit? It might explain why such weird first implementation was done...

I'm pretty sure they could do it, if they can make artemis only effect direct fire and lose the bonus when the target is no longer LOS, they should be able to make LRMs less accurate against a target in ECM.

Apoc1138, on 20 December 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

time to lock on =/= accuracy
having to learn how to lead fire with LRM's == accuracy

Actually time to lock on is accuracy. If it takes longer to lock that means the traget can be closer to protected areas rendering your missiles useless.

If you hit someone with dumbfire LRMs at anything longer than 300 meters, they were either stupid or standing still.

[Sol Fin]

Noth, on 20 December 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure they could do it, if they can make artemis only effect direct fire and lose the bonus when the target is no longer LOS, they should be able to make LRMs less accurate against a target in ECM.

Difference may come from the fact that you can count Artemis before missiles are fired. At the same time missile travel time is enough for a target mech to walk in/out of ECM bubble, which should be considered.

Though of, course, easy solution might be to consider ECM before LRMs are fired.

Edited by Sol Fin, 20 December 2012 - 08:42 AM.