ltwally, on 27 December 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:
So, just to make sure we have the chain of events correctly:
Dec 3:
Release patch with horridly imbalanced ECM, which altered game-play to such an extent that most people called it "broken."
Dec 17:
After two weeks of studying the horrific effects of this new and largely unwelcome piece of equipment, they make it slightly weaker, while increasing TAG range as if this is supposed to fix things. They ignore the irony that TAG is a direct-fire piece of equipment that is now necessary for long-range-missiles to work again.
They also nerf jump jets into something so useless that even those who had paid the full weight penalty for the before have now gotten rid of them. Apparently this was just icing on the cake
Dec 24
Go on holiday. Figure out how many players they can drive away while they're drinking eggnog.
neg. on the 17th they made ecm counter mode only affect 1 disrupt mode ecm, not all inside 180m.
this is a buff to ecm's hostile effectiveness, and a nerf to counter ecm toolset.
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MaxllmuS, on 26 December 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:
1 realy problem with ECM its mounting it on ATLAS if ECM will be moved to light and medium only we can see em much more in the games and this add some balance.
Realy now then repair no problem i see only way to make medium more usefull give em ECM ability.
Light become scouts.
Med will be support mech tag\narc\ecm etc.
Havy become damage dealers fast and good firepover.
Assaults wiil be slow moving not mobile tanks and death machines.
thank you for your opinion repost from elsewhere.
that's a fine and dandy artificial logic model.
it however tries to force roles upon weights instead of acknowledging weights had the roles divided up inside them, and were used according to task at hand.
you have striker lights and scout lights best used for guerilla type conflicts or against light fixed defenses with heavy mobile defenses.
you had mediums which included fast scout strikers like the cicada, or fixed defense attackers like the hunchback, and many role ranges between.
you had heavies with similar distributions. dragon being more prone to scout/flanker/antiflanker and cats as fixed defense wreckers from the rear.
you had assaults intended for heavily entrenched fixed defense attacks, with multirole designs therein as well. they were classically better when the firepower they faced was heavy, but not mobile. an atlas was designed with this in mind with extremely heavy frontal armor and weapon loadouts AND rear facing weapons so it never turns to expose its weaker rear to the heavy stuff, whereas an awesome with heavier rear armor can cope with advance flankers thanks to heavier rear armor.
also most lighter mechs had other features we lack, like reversible arms so they could fire to front and/or rear, whereas assaults were frontal arc only arms and commonly possessed rear gun ports.
we quite simply lack the situations that allow weight classes to have their place, and multirole properly.no combined arms, no fixed emplacements, etc etc. and the combined weight class situation attempting to force roles is well... ill conceived. with only one objective and no array of situations covering those objectives aside from the mobile defenses(enemy team) certain weight classes are advantaged by design.
Frostiken, on 26 December 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:
Frankly I wish someone would take the lore and universe of Battletech and rewrite the rules to make and sensible fair and balanced game that is actually based somewhat in reality.
ECM should behave like ECM in real life. The ECM implementation is why ECM is the most overpowered piece of gear in every single Mechwarrior ever. The -detection range kind of stuff is exactly what it never works.
tt "sensors" had a 540m range by default. an active probe or ecm worked over a region of only about 120m and 180m respectively and were good only for preventing non line of sight detection, ie sneaking around a hill to point blank on an enemy, you could spot them using stealth but not ecm, or powered down over the hill through bap's active sensing range, which was very very short. ecm made that over the hill detection of a machine or it's buddies even with beagle not work.
it was still true however that if you or a teammate could visually see the enemy with los you could report that and blast them, even through indirect fire.
ecm behaving like real life ecm. the numbers of times i hear calls for real life, or worse people falling into an improper use of radar in the vernacular. if we follow that reasoning you wind up with something far more akin to world of tanks or arma. and while we are at it. a mech comes tromping up the valley between cave and hill on forest colony. you are standing on the hill looking away. you can hear it coming stomp stomp stomp. systems to detect that seismographic activity are part of your sensor suite nominally. heck vibrobombs("viBrABomB minefieldS
As with conventional minefields, players should determine
the minefield density of any vibrabomb minefields to be
placed before play begins.
Treat a vibrabomb like a conventional mine, with the follow-ing exceptions.
Vibrabombs can only be set off by the unique vibrations
created by an approaching ’Mech. No other units can trig-ger vibrabombs. Any ’Mech can set off a vibrabomb, and
vibrabombs go off automatically.
Vibrabombs have a variable sensitivity, and when placed
must be set to respond to a specific mass. ’Mechs massing 10
or more tons lighter than the vibrabomb setting will not set off
the minefield. A ’Mech massing more than 10 tons heavier than
the setting will set off the minefield at a distance of 1 hex for
each 10 full tons by which it is heavier than the bombs’ setting.
For example, if a vibrabomb minefield is set to respond to
a 40-ton ’Mech, and a 75-ton Orionenters a hex three hexes
away, the field explodes. A 30-ton Javelinwalking directly
through the hex containing the a vibrabomb mine would not
set it off.
A unit occupying the same hex as an exploding vibrabomb
takes damage equal to the minefield density determined
by the players before the beginning of the game, as shown
on the Minefield Density Table, to its Front side. Exploding
vibrabombs do not affect adjacent hexes. Use the ’Mech Kick
Location Table to determine damage to a BattleMech.")work as mines by being set to go off when the seismic impact threshold to rate of change is at a certain point generally tuned to chassis weight.no ecm or stealth system bypasses vibrabombs detection. null sig would make one invisible on thermal and to ir scans at range, but would need ecm to help cover other emissions and prevent active probe or sensor detection at closer ranges.
the trifecta of chameleon polarizations shield to stop visual acquisition, null sig for ir/thermal, and ecm for electronic/em still didn't render you undetectable. just harder to detect with precision.
Ransack, on 26 December 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:
It's working for me
or is this not what you are talking about.
try that again with the friendlies inside hostile ecm and you not.
your shots are in the clear, not in the problem zone.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
also sparked a point not yet made. thermal vision and night vision.
one is ir detection, the other is electron acceleration of existing visible spectra light. the latter is older tech and crappier most new nv use ir.
also from tactical operations which i have been revisiting for the rules on look down radar/thermal sensing for use in sat scan and/or aerospace/vtol flyby (which would apply to say, a uav system logically), and again came to the dozen pages covering double blind and EXTENSIVE COVERAGE OF SENSOR TYPES RANGES AND THE NON BINARY INTERACTIONS BETWEEN STEALTH/ECM AND SENSORS OF VARYING TYPES.
<MONLITHIC BREAKDOWN phase 1> bottom line is ecm is broken because it is binary and the other systems are not, by and large present. quotations for the edification of the unaware.
Quote
"ECM SUITES
The rules below expand on the use of ECM suites.
ECCM
An ECM suite can be tuned to act as electronic counter-coun-termeasures (ECCM) in order to negate enemy ECM systems. The
ECM loses its normal functions when used in this way. The player
must announce the switch to ECCM in the End Phase of any turn,
or may set the suite for ECCM at the start of the scenario. In either
case, note the change on the record sheet of the unit in question.
While the ECCM suite is active, the electronic countermeasures
of an enemy unit within the ECCM’s radius will not work. Also, any
LOS traced through a hex that is encompassed by both ECM and
ECCM will be unaffected by the ECM, even if the actual unit carry-ing the ECM suite is outside the ECCM bubble.
If multiple units equipped with both ECM and ECCM are on the
map, the interaction between the two types of electronics systems
becomes complicated, because multiple ECM suites operating in
the same area can counter an enemy’s ECCM (see ECCM diagram,
p. 101). One ECCM suite can counter one ECM suite.
If the amount of friendly ECCM in a hex is equal to or greater
than the enemy ECM in that hex, ECM does not function in that
hex. For this purpose, the Angel ECM suite (see p. 279) counts
as two ECM or ECCM suites, or the player can choose to run the
Angel at 1 ECM and 1 ECCM.
Communications Equipment: Communications equipment
(see p. 212, TechManual) can be used to generate an ECCM field
with the same area of effect as an Inner Sphere Guardian ECM
Suite. Any unit that mounts 3 to 6 tons of communications equip-ment equals half of an ECM suite when generating an ECCMfield. If the unit mounts 7 or more tons of communications
equipment, it equals 1 ECM suite when generating an ECCM.
Any time communications equipment is used to generate an
ECCM field, all other bonus modifiers are lost."
so in theory two mechs should be able to sacrafice target sharing to counter 1 ecm disrupt.
Quote
"Ghost Targets
An ECM suite can be tuned to generate “ghost targets”
that may affect the ability of enemy units to properly target
friendly units. The ECM loses its normal functions when used
in this way. The player must announce the switch to ghost
target generation in the End Phase of any turn, or may set the
suite for ghost target generation at the start of the scenario. In
either case, note the change on the record sheet of the unit
in question.
At the start of every Weapon Attack Phase when an ECM
is tuned to generating ghost targets, the controlling player
makes a Piloting Skill Roll with a +2 modifier; no other modi-fiers are applied to this roll. If the roll fails, he did not tune the ECM correctly and no effects are applied for that turn. On a
successful roll result, he attuned the ECM properly; the player
should note the result’s Margin of Success.
During a turn’s Weapon Attack Phase, if a weapon attack
passes through the ECM bubble of an enemy ECM tuned to
generating ghost targets and the controlling player made
a successful Piloting Skill Roll that turn, the attacking player
must also make a Piloting Skill Roll before making a to-hit roll
for the weapon attack in question; the only modifier added to
this Piloting Skill Roll is the MoS of the enemy ECM unit. If the
roll is a success, the to-hit roll is made as normal; the attacker’s
targeting and tracking system is able to differentiate between
all the ghost targets. If the roll fails, for every 2 MoF (round
down), apply a +1 to-hit modifier to all weapon attacks that
pass through the ECM bubble for that turn by that attacker.
Note that an attacking player only makes a single roll, regard-less of how many weapons are firing, applying any modifiers
to all weapon attacks equally.
If an attack passes through multiple ghost target-generating
ECM fields, only a single roll is made. Determine the highest Mar-gin of Success from those multiple enemy ECM fields, applying
an additional +1 for each additional field, and then applying the
total modifier to the Piloting Skill Roll. A +4 to-hit modifier is the
maximum that can be applied to a weapon attack through the
use of ghost target ECM fields. For example, if an attack passed
through three ghost target-generating ECM fields and the highest
Margin of Success of those fields was a 3, the modifier applied to
the Piloting Skill Roll would be 4 [+3 (highest MoS of the three
ECM fields) +2 (2 additional ECM fields) = 5, but only a maximum
+4 can be applied].
Angel ECM Suite:An Angel ECM Suite can be tuned to be 1
ECM or 1 ECCM while it generates ghost targets.
Communications Equipment: Communications equipment
(see p. 212, TechManual) can be used to generate ghost targets
with the same area of effect as an Inner Sphere Guardian ECM suite.
However, to do so, the unit must mount 7 or more tons of com-munications equipment. Any time communications equipment is
used to generate an ECCM field, all other bonus modifiers are lost.
ECCM:Just as standard ECM functions cease when inside an
enemy ECCM field, an ECM cannot generate ghost targets if the
amount of friendly ECCM in a hex is less than the enemy ECCM
in that hex.
Active Probe:For any unit making an attack that also mounts
an active probe, apply a +1 modifier to the die roll result when
making the Piloting Skill Roll to determine the to-hit modifier as
described above.
Targeting Computers:Any units making an attack with a
weapon wedded to a targeting computer (see 143, TW) apply a
+2 modifier to the die roll result when making the Piloting Skill
Roll to determine the to-hit modifier as described above.
Cockpit Command Console:If a unit mounts a cockpit com-mand console and has a second pilot that enables all its other
abilities to function (see Cockpit Command Console, p. 300), it can
be used to generate ghost targets with the same area of effect
as an Inner Sphere Guardian ECM suite. Additionally, apply a +3
modifier to the die roll result when making the Piloting Skill Roll
to determine the to-hit modifier for attacks from such a unit as
described above"
and that before we even hit the double blind rules.
continuing by skipping down into concealing information we find
Quote
"AvAilABle informAtion
Any unit that is not deployed under the Hidden Units rules
is visible to an opponent as soon as game play starts.
Consequently, each player can see the location and gen-eral type of every opposing unit. For example, an enemy will
recognize a CPLT-C1 Catapult as a Catapult, but he will not
know that it is the CPLT-C1 model. Similarly, an opponent will
recognize the general type of an infantry unit—foot, motor-ized, jump, mechanized or battle armor—but not the type of
armament the unit carries.
To obtain further information about an opposing unit, a
player must have one of his own units examine the opposing
unit by successfully scanning it with an active probe or stan-dard sensors, or by visually inspecting it during play.
ScAnning
Active-probe scanning provides the most detailed and
accurate information about enemy units. However, when
such sensors are unavailable, standard ’Mech or vehicle
sensors or a simple visual inspection can reveal a certain
amount of information.
Active Sensors
Any unit that has active sensors (is not shut down, its sen-sors are not destroyed and so on) can always tell the following
basic information without any scanning required.
Armor condition:How much armor is left in a given loca-tion. The sensor readings follow a color code, based on the
percentage of armor left compared to its standard undam-aged condition: 100-90 percent = green; 90-50 percent =
yellow; 50-10 percent = red; 10-0 percent = black. For example,
a player is facing a Centurion that took damage from a medium
laser hit to its right arm. When the player asks his opponent
what the Centurion’s status is, the opponent responds that all
locations are green except for the right arm, which is yellow
[16 (original armor value) – 5 (damage) = 11 / 16 (original
armor value) = .68, or 68 percent (yellow)].
heat condition:The unit’s current heat level. Once again,
the sensors follow a color code: 1-7 = blue; 11-14 = green;
15-21 = yellow; 22+ = red.
Active Probes
Any time a unit enters the range of any type of active probe
operated by an opponent, the player must reveal that unit’s
record sheet to the opponent. The player must leave the sheet
face up and available for the opponent to examine as long as
the unit remains within the probe’s effect radius.
Any unit mounting an ECM suite can potentially defeat an
active probe on a 2D6 dice roll against a Target Number of 8. If
the roll fails, the unit must reveal its information.
Standard Sensors
Any ’Mech, vehicle, battle armor or aerospace unit can use
its standard sensors (radar, magscan, IR and so on) to examine
one target (a Large Craft can scan up to four targets) within
its line of sight; aerospace units must be grounded, or on the
playing area if using the Aerospace Units on Ground Map-sheets rules (see p. 91, TW), or in the hex corresponding to the
ground mapsheet if using Low-Altitude Movement (see p. 80,
TW) to make a sensor scan. Units may make only one scan ....."
so to get target information we need line of sight scanning, but to get a target at all we do not.
furthermore to get highly accurate target information we need better sensors than the standard radar/ir/magscan equipped by default.
double blind ranges by type for detection, in 360 degree hexes.hexes remain 30 meters a piece.
Quote
"perSensor System Short (2D6 = 7–8) Medium (2D6 = 5–6) Long (2D6 = 2–4)
Beagle Active Probe* 1–12 13–24 25–36
Bloodhound Active Probe 1–16 17–32 33–48
Clan Active Probe* 1–15 16–30 31–45
Clan Watchdog/Light Active Probe 1–9 10–18 19–27
’Mech IR/Magscan Sensor† 1–10 11–20 21–30
’Mech Radar 1–8 9–16 17–24
Vehicle IR/Magscan Sensor† 1–9 10–18 19–27
Heat Sensor‡ 1–9 10–18 19–27
Vehicle Radar/Improved Sensor§ 1–6 7–12 13–18
’Mech Seismic Sensor 1–2 3–4 5–6
Vehicle Seismic Sensor 1 2 3"
and also the table for
Quote
"EcM/STEALTH MODIFIER TABLE
Target Unit’s ECM System
Spotting Unit’s Probe/Sensor|Void-Sig|Angel or Null-Sig|Std Clan,Watchdog,or Guardian|Stealth Armor*or EW System
Beagle +6 +5 +4 +3
Bloodhound +4 +3 +2 +1
Clan Active Probe +5 +5 +4 +3
Light Active Probe +6 +6 +5 +4
Watchdog +6 +5 +4 +3
EW System +7 +6 +4 +4
’Mech Sensor +7 +6 +5 +4
Vehicle Sensor/Improved Sensor§ +7 +7 +6 +5
Communications Equipment/Command Console +7 +7 +6 +5
Seismic/IR/Magscan NA NA NA NA NA NA NA"
sat uplinks are generally treated to extend the various sensor ranges by 1 hex. as we will have issues with chance to detect mechanics, simply modifying range of detection works just dandy, with a notification of jamming if range is reduced on an appropriate target like an ecm carrier at range, but not something like null sig or chameleon.
further note that nothing outside a meteor shower, being airborne, or an earthquake can disrupt seismic/magscan. and that ranges are somewhat extreme for various sensor systems when broken down specifically, but that how much harder to spot at various ranges each ew system makes things is actually specified.
so we begin to see, that without going into strange evolutions like making an ecm hot, or poof a fellow from thermals, or playing with matchmaking ecm allowances, simply by incorporating enough of the rules in a sane and interrelated way and tweaking then together, we can balance things. ecm being a purely on/off system is not only broken, but flat wrong.
while 540m may be the general "sensors range for lowest tier rules, we see that when engaging in double blind with ecm mechanics the interplay balance places generic sensors like mech radar at 720m, which is right about where it is in game.
we do not however have our command consoles, comms equipment(and this is why vivox c3 integration while calling ts/skype/voip a third party program/ cheat and restricting its use while in game becomes relevant) which can have effects controlled and modified in game, including mode switches, interference, and range limitations, and flat out other sensor types matter. you want voice comms? mount the comms system. they should be part of a designs weight and crit allocation by default, unlike c3 systems.five non ecm mechs find one ecm mech among them? switch comms off and everyone overrules the comms+ecm capability of the one target. furthermore, looking at it, if you thought ecm could be over the top, spend the time(and it takes a while) to read through all the things a command console has rules to allow it to do(it has rules letting it do almost everything there is a rule for, at least optionally. true jesus box).
if one further extends to actually looking at(gasp) the mechwarrior rpg ruleset's vehicle quirks and perks, along with pilot traits and deficits some piloting modules make sense, as do some mech performance impacting modules. however a few, like 360 target are animals created by the broken balance point of fov detection only. it has consigned los and "sensors" to too narrow a role, while 360 bubbles like ecm far outclass them. this is a fundamental mistake in need of correction.
also lets hope people can begin to get the mistake of radar vs sensors when talking ecm, null sig, chameleon, and stealth is .. well a red herring. lastly i believe this also present why ghost target vs hide mode is almost certainly the better path at this point. with multiple untagged contacts one must still try to specifically cycle to pick out the real one for things like locks, and tag can be used to paint or indicate the real vs the ghosts instantly helping individuals locate the one to stick to when they manage to cycle to it. being unable to share targeting data while inside the bubble and thus unable to pass on tag markers, *could* also be fine and dandy.
it has and continues to seem that much of the don't care about the canon/lore/rules/tt crowd simply do not have access to understand exactly how inclusive the rule rabbithole goes, and that many of the outside the box solutions are generally flat inferior or create further problems for which there are no prescribed solution paths.
while the cry of tt is not realtime is an excellent point, ignoring so many interrelated systems then trying to come up with solutions to the dregs pulled piecemeal is a very different issue. the flow and combination of the many rule systems in tt give the worlds and universe its own spirit to be adhered to even if the specific letter of the laws is not closely held. and it provides sufficient width and breadth to allow one to scale multiple systems together and maintain that spirit. further in ignoring or pulling peicemeal so many parts of the base systems one readily paints oneself into a corner with regards to future development.
it is in short a problem of ignorance, of lack of information, in much the same way as the technical issues are small individually then compounded exponentially in combinations, and omissions.
high time to start the information warfare properly. go forth and educate.
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