1017 replies to this topic

[DocBach]

Copy pasting this write up a lot tonight


List I made on what I think Information Warfare should look like in the game from a different post:


ECM needs to be toned down and other components like Beagle and Narc need to be toned up. ECM should not provide stealth 'Mech ability to an entire team, it should:

-Disrupt Beagle's ability to detect shut down 'Mechs
-Negate the tight groupings of Artemis-enhanced missiles
-Negate the tight groupings of Narc-enhanced missiles, as well as prevent indirect fire on a Narc'd 'Mech without LOS (more on this later)
-Prevent spotters in the ECM bubble, or on the other side of, with line of sight passingh through a bubble from transmitting target data to team mates outside the bubble
-Make target ID slower to acquire, but not block locks or targeting completely
-Generate ghost targets - bring up the command map with B in ghost target mode and plot a false radar signal that shows up like a target shrouded by ECM - target-able by R, but no target data available
-Run counter ECM

Artemis:
-No Changes, should tighten LRM groups against targets in line of sight

Beagle should:
-Detect shutdown 'Mechs outside of ECM bubbles
-Negate ECM's target acquisition slowdown while outside the bubble
-Notify the user that they are in the ECM bubble, sort of how we automatically have now with the low signal our sensors would know there is an ECM around, but not know where the actual bubble starts or ends.

Narc should:
-Tighten LRM/SRM grouping on targets in line of sight
-Allow targets marked by Narc to remain targeted even when LOS is lost so LRM attacks can continue indirectly without spotters
-Last for either an extended duration than current or until the location the Narc hit is destroyed

A couple simple changes would make all of the advanced EW equipment viable, while remaining faithful to the source material without being game breaking or overpowering. ECM would still be useful to take, especially for protection against LRM spotters, as it would prevent them from sending target data to their LRM boats, protect you from Narc which would actually be a useful item if it kept enemies lit up on radar for indirect fire without a spotter like the rules say it does, and give Beagle expanded roles like countering ECM outside of the bubble (inspired by detection rules from MaxTech), and serving as a warning system that you are inside the bubble propper, which would be useful for spotters trying to Narc targets or transmit data.

The above changes would make information warfare have counters to each other, beyond just ECM, ECM, ECM. It would make it everything a useful addition to a team, but not an absolute necessity or gamebreaker.

[hammerreborn]

ShadowSpirit, on 27 December 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

1) Scrambles radar at close range -- can't target a damn thing

So we're already wrong at #1, why read the rest. You can target anything within 200m of you, ECM or not.

Is it too much to ask that in the million ECM complain threads people could at least be truthful and know what they are talking about?.

Edited by hammerreborn, 27 December 2012 - 09:37 PM.

[ShadowSpirit]

hammerreborn, on 27 December 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

So we're already wrong at #1, why read the rest. You can target anything within 200m of you, ECM or not.

My hyperbole, granted ignorance, warrants your fallacy argument?

You can't target ECM mech that is behind a wall but within 180. People use that tactic ALL the time in River City. So you, sir, are not correct nor am I 100% correct.

Do you have anything worthwhile to add to this conversation other than its response count?

Edited by ShadowSpirit, 27 December 2012 - 09:41 PM.

[hammerreborn]

ShadowSpirit, on 27 December 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

My hyperbole, granted ignorance, warrants your fallacy argument?

You can't target ECM mech that is behind a wall but within 180. People use that tactic ALL the time in River City. So you, sir, are not correct nor am I 100% correct.

Do you have anything worthwhile to add to this conversation other than its response count?

And a raven behind a wall is untargetable regardless of ECM...so now terrain is broken and should be removed? Or is that still the matchmakers fault. I can't keep up anymore.

Quote

Lance with 1 or 2 Assaults vs. a Lance with 4 or more. Atlas D-DC anyone? The matchmaker is broken.

Also hilarious.

Do you have any worthwhile arguments that doesn't amount to WHIIIIIINNNNNNEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE ECM TOUCHED ME IN MY NO NO SPOT


Edit: I also enjoy how your title mentions repairs but you neglect to even mention it in the OP

Edit2: and if you really want to get pedantic I can also go on how each of your 4 points are wrong

Edited by hammerreborn, 27 December 2012 - 10:04 PM.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

ECM now defines MWO - True, only brawlers and lagshielded ravens out there.

Matchmaker is broken - Yeah, needs to be specified properly.

Bring back repair bills - I agree, too many assaults out there.

[ShadowSpirit]

hammerreborn, on 27 December 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

And a raven behind a wall is untargetable regardless of ECM...so now terrain is broken and should be removed? Or is that still the matchmakers fault. I can't keep up anymore.




Also hilarious.

Do you have any worthwhile arguments that doesn't amount to WHIIIIIINNNNNNEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE ECM TOUCHED ME IN MY NO NO SPOT


Edit: I also enjoy how your title mentions repairs but you neglect to even mention it in the OP

Edit2: and if you really want to get pedantic I can also go on how each of your 4 points are wrong

Please stop trying to get the thread locked. I don't care if you disagree but you are making personal attacks and not even discussing the matters at hand.

By all means show how all four points are wrong. The edits were simple grammar fixes.

[Glaive-]

Why do you guys even bother complain about the matchmaking when it isn't finished yet?

[ICEFANG13]

Ok if you advocate ECM, please tell me how it is balanced? Tell me the disadvantages of it, and why you would not want to put it on a mech?

[hammerreborn]

ShadowSpirit, on 27 December 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

Please stop trying to get the thread locked. I don't care if you disagree but you are making personal attacks and not even discussing the matters at hand.

By all means show how all four points are wrong.

The matter at hand is you're wrong. You can argue ECM is a game definer, you know, using facts. Like nullifying too many systems for little cost, or turning the game into a brawlfest. These are legitimate, factual gripes.

Quote

1) Scrambles radar at close range -- can't target a damn thing

This is just wrong. 100% I don't care how pedantic you want to be it doesn't change the fact that you are wrong. Anything within 200m is targetable that is normally targetable. So saying you can't target a damn thing is just a lie.

Quote

2) Provides lock immunity -- Streaks & LRMs out

Also 90% wrong. The only lock immunity occurs inside the enemies 180m ECM bubble, otherwise, there is no effect on streaks/LRMS ability to lock, especially if assisted by a mech with TAG. Seeing most people still use them to great effect, saying they are "out" is also incorrect. Harder to use is a factual statement, that they are out is not.

Quote

3) Provides radar invisibility -- nearly requires the use of heat vision to counter -- which leads to the question why have all the pretty scenery?

Caustic Valley, I'm sure you're using heat vision to see those ECM mechs. Also wrong. Normal viewing and night vision are also perfectly good counters (night mainly being useful in river city night). Forest, river city day, and frozen city night have clean sight lines heat vision doesn't really add any bonuses other than allowing you to see just a little farther than normal range (I.e. sniping mechs in the river you wouldn't be able to target even without ECM)

Quote

4) Limited to only a few mechs which reduces the diversity of mechs on the battlefield. There was no such limitation in tabletop and ECM didn't do nearly as much.

Not true, as evident in every single match where you will see cataphracts, stalkers, and hunchbacks.

Quote

There have been online battetech game based on the table top and they were great successes (MPBT, MPBT 3025 come to mind) before EA pulled the plug because they didn't want to give money to Microsoft.

This might be the only fully true comment in your entire post.

[hammerreborn]

ICEFANG13, on 27 December 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

Ok if you advocate ECM, please tell me how it is balanced? Tell me the disadvantages of it, and why you would not want to put it on a mech?

Why does there have to be disadvantages? Like the medium laser, it can just you know, work.

I think ECM is perfectly balanced. I think NARC and BAP could be improved to help counter ECM (NARC should be buffed massively in general for it's weight/difficulty of use, even if its not to counter ECM), but ECM isn't the end all be all game changer. The biggest problem with ECM and it's balance is how it works with streaks and which mechs currently have them (i.e. the ones that benefit from netcode issues). Streaks are overpowered pieces of garbage and when they are nerfed and netcode is fixed it'll be easy to kill ECM mechs that don't pay attention.

How hard is it to kill a commano? Not hard, a solid 3 Med Laser + 2SRM4 to the back will nearly instantly core it. A raven, maybe 3 of those salvos. With netcode fixed so that half the shots don't magically not hit it, Ravens, Cicadas, and Commandos will all die a quick death.

And comon, how easy is it to shoot a D-DC, imagine if that ease applied to that commando.

EDIT: Not to mention when knockbacks are implemented again.

Edited by hammerreborn, 27 December 2012 - 10:27 PM.

[Noth]

hammerreborn, on 27 December 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

Also 90% wrong. The only lock immunity occurs inside the enemies 180m ECM bubble, otherwise, there is no effect on streaks/LRMS ability to lock, especially if assisted by a mech with TAG. Seeing most people still use them to great effect, saying they are "out" is also incorrect. Harder to use is a factual statement, that they are out is not.




Caustic Valley, I'm sure you're using heat vision to see those ECM mechs. Also wrong. Normal viewing and night vision are also perfectly good counters (night mainly being useful in river city night). Forest, river city day, and frozen city night have clean sight lines heat vision doesn't really add any bonuses other than allowing you to see just a little farther than normal range (I.e. sniping mechs in the river you wouldn't be able to target even without ECM)

First, ECM completely blocks you ability to target and lock anyone in the bubble unless you are at 200 meters, then under 180 meters you can target but not lock. Tag in no way counters ecm effectively as it can take a good 10 seconds for your team to get missiles on target and any one who cant break the tag beam in 10 seconds is a really bad player.

Night vision is crap even on the night city map. You can have an atlas walk to within 400 metes before you can make him out. Thermals youll see them at 1000+ meters which is a huge bonus on all maps, even caustic which you still benefit the most from thermals.

[Fooooo]

Maybe it would work better if they just removed the bubble.

Make it only "cloak" the mech carrying the ECM. So basically it lets the cicada / raven become a hidden spotter, or at least a better one, commando the same etc etc.......but not everyone else with them.............tho that would probably just mean more people taking ecm mechs..........

Meh who knows......

Edited by Fooooo, 27 December 2012 - 10:38 PM.

[ICEFANG13]

Medium lasers have disadvantages, otherwise, the only laser we'd see is medium lasers, when choosing a weapon, you have to consider all the facts about it. They have a range of 270-540, that's pretty low-moderate. It has high power to weight (5 to 1), but low DPS to weight (1.25), if you consider it against the small laser (DPS 1 to half ton), it starts to compare. The medium laser also creates twice as much heat (4) to small lasers (2). It would seem that, if your slots are in abundance, small lasers are a good DPS, fairly cool, alternative. However, Large Lasers have much less damage to tonnage ratio (9 to 5), it only takes up one weapon slot, but 2 critical slots. It does have a much higher range of 450, so you can actually do a lot more long range fighting in comparison. It has a runs hotter, but because it does more damage per tic of beam, it makes it more effective for a quick hit, but if you are looking for a quick hit, lets talk pulse lasers....

You see? You can think about weapons for a long time, they all have advantages and disadvantages, there is a reason to bring a medium laser, but some builds don't want it, and some builds want less. Let me give you the disadvantages of ECM.

None, if you are using a mech that can carry it, you're an ***** if you are not. There is no reason not to use ECM on an ECM mech what so ever. It provides insane bonuses for its slots and weight, and all mechs that can, are running ECM. my experience indicates around 40% average (in 4 mans, about 95% in 8 mans) are ECM mechs (which should be closer to 4/51, or about 1/12, if it was balanced), and 0% of 3Ls, 3Ms, 2Ds, and D-DCs I have seen not use it, there is nothing in game that is so, "derr I should add this because it doesn't have a penalty to it."

So I was able to identify some weaknesses and disadvantages for medium lasers, perhaps you can identify some for ECM?

Edited by ICEFANG13, 27 December 2012 - 10:44 PM.

[hammerreborn]

Noth, on 27 December 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

First, ECM completely blocks you ability to target and lock anyone in the bubble unless you are at 200 meters, then under 180 meters you can target but not lock. Tag in no way counters ecm effectively as it can take a good 10 seconds for your team to get missiles on target and any one who cant break the tag beam in 10 seconds is a really bad player.

His comment was only about short range. I would consider within 200m short range. TAG works fine for myself and my team...the point is for them to not know they are being tagged. And TAGging is for Atlas's, and any TAGger worth their salt should be able to keep an Atlas lasered. It's not like they are ninjas...

Quote

Night vision is crap even on the night city map. You can have an atlas walk to within 400 metes before you can make him out. Thermals youll see them at 1000+ meters which is a huge bonus on all maps, even caustic which you still benefit the most from thermals.

Personal preference. I prefer night vision when in brawls at close range over heat vision in river city night, easier to distinguish hit locations.

[hammerreborn]

ICEFANG13, on 27 December 2012 - 10:43 PM, said:

Medium lasers have disadvantages, otherwise, the only laser we'd see is medium lasers, when choosing a weapon, you have to consider all the facts about it. They have a range of 270-540, that's pretty low-moderate. It has high power to weight (5 to 1), but low DPS to weight (1.25), if you consider it against the small laser (DPS 1 to half ton), it starts to compare. The medium laser also creates twice as much heat (4) to small lasers (2). It would seem that, if your slots are in abundance, small lasers are a good DPS, fairly cool, alternative. However, Large Lasers have much less damage to tonnage ratio (9 to 5), it only takes up one weapon slot, but 2 critical slots. It does have a much higher range of 450, so you can actually do a lot more long range fighting in comparison. It has a runs hotter, but because it does more damage per tic of beam, it makes it more effective for a quick hit, but if you are looking for a quick hit, lets talk pulse lasers....

You see? You can think about weapons for a long time, they all have advantages and disadvantages, there is a reason to bring a medium laser, but some builds don't want it, and some builds want less. Let me give you the disadvantages of ECM.

None, if you are using a mech that can carry it, you're an ***** if you are not. There is no reason not to use ECM on an ECM mech what so ever. It provides insane bonuses for its slots and weight, and all mechs that can, are running ECM. my experience indicates around 40% average (in 4 mans, about 95% in 8 mans) are ECM mechs (which should be closer to 4/51, or about 1/12, if it was balanced), and 0% of 3Ls, 3Ms, 2Ds, and D-DCs I have seen not use it, there is nothing in game that is so, "derr I should add this because it doesn't have a penalty to it."

So I was able to identify some weaknesses and disadvantages for medium lasers, perhaps you can identify some for ECM?

The mechs you're forced to bring. Commandos and Cicada's are liabilities in PUGs, 4 mans, and 8 mans, as the Cicada just isn't a good mech for anything other than brawling with assaults (and in PUG/4 Man means the other team gets a Hunch/Cent) and commandos are one strong breeze from becoming explodey explodey exploders.

Atlas's are walking targets.

Bring too many ECMs and you're just wasting tonnage. If the other team brings 1 ECM, you only need 2, any more and you wasted space and lost serious tonnage against your opponent (i.e. if they brought a stalker to your 3rd raven, prepare for a bad day (netcode issues aside)). Bring too little and you might as well have no brought any at all.

Bringing all D-DCs allows you to be easily capped, bringing all ravens allows you to be obliterated by a team that can aim.

ECMs cost weight, not much, but JJs don't cost that much weight either and people say it's a disadvantage.

ECMs have an effective range, like medium lasers. A team with full complements of guasscats don't give a rats *** if you brought ECM, they'll see you and exterminate you from range.

ECMs don't negate 3/4 of the weapons in this game, the only thing they truely hamper are LRMs and streaks.

Edited by hammerreborn, 27 December 2012 - 10:57 PM.

[Adeptus Odren]

IV Amen, on 27 December 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

Bring back repair bills - I agree, too many assaults out there.

As a casual player (and, I believe, a member of the majority), I disagree with bringing back repair bills. I can only play an hour most days and, for that hour, I WANT to be able to play the mechs I want (e.g. my pimped-out Atlases) without having to worry about whether or not I can afford the repair bill after.

As for there being too many assaults, it's only because of the the Stalker being new and everyone with one wanting to grind it to Master. Also, based on my experience, there are still a lot of games where there are only one or two assaults on each side.

I think MWO players are the only mmo players who hate free fictional cash. I don't hear the same complaints from Dungeon & Dragons Online, Hawken, or even World of Tanks.

[ICEFANG13]

I never said they did, but they do remove 40% of weapons systems, LRM, SSRM, SRM, Lasers, Direct Fire weapons (PPC/Ballistics).

The Commando is liability? Please, its the best missile light mech, and it has ECM, its far better then any other non-ECM light. The Cicada is an excellent medium, and the 3M can carry 4 medium lasers, 1A/C-2, 2 tons of ammo, and near max armor and move around 120, that's a good build. Lastly, this 'argument' fails to recognize that 3Ls are the best light by far, and D-DCs are great Atlas. You can't say it works half the time and not the other half, especially when all 4 are great mechs. I can name off 4 mechs that are not only inferior, they are completely inferior and there is no reason to bring them:
Cicada-3C, Raven-2X. The 3 inferior Stalker mechs, (non 5S and 3F), heck that's five, there is no reason to run those mechs, every build they can do can be done better or equally well by another mech (admittedly, the Cicada-3C is best for the 4 machine gun build...).

That's not at all how ECM works, wasted tonnage? Hardly, let me put this in perspective for you, if they bring 1 LRM 20 (10 tons, plus a minimum of 1 ton ammo) that is waste if you have 8 ECM (12 tons), and that's it, unless you have 8 ECM to counter theirs. ECM is a total arms race, if you don't have more in a fight, they can counter all of yours, and they have ECM coverage, excellent balance no? Rock beats rock, paper, and scissors.

If you bring 8 D-DCs, and they do not bring 8 Raven-3Ls, they will probably lose, 8 all staying back at base is nearly impossible to kill, and they probably have 8 ECM mechs, which means your little strike team of lights will be decimated by their ECM superiority. See how this is ECM that and ECM this? That is the discussion, because if you do not bring ECM to a match, you are a liability.

Jump Jets weren't always used when they weighted half a ton, now they have been nerfed, worse than before, and they weigh 2.5 tons and have 5 slots. Advantages:
You can hover in air for a short time and scale small buildings.

If some 8 man brings 8 Gauss cats, I would laugh so hard as they get destroyed, ECM even works on them, it negates the ability to target mechs fast enough to tell where to shoot at, and guess what beats that really easily? 4 light mechs (ie 3Ls), capping their base, or just killing them all, 8 snipers does not a team make.

You still have given me no disadvantages to ECM. If it was allowed on all mechs, why would I not put it on my mech?

Edited by ICEFANG13, 27 December 2012 - 11:17 PM.

[TB Freelancer]

Aw common man. Tarron started like a dozen posts that started out exactly like yours a few days ago.....

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Adeptus Odren, on 27 December 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

As a casual player (and, I believe, a member of the majority), I disagree with bringing back repair bills. I can only play an hour most days and, for that hour, I WANT to be able to play the mechs I want (e.g. my pimped-out Atlases) without having to worry about whether or not I can afford the repair bill after.

Yes, you can play your pimped-out Atlas when you afford to play it. Sorry if I'm rude to casual players (such as myself, btw), but you should not get all the candy at once. The "I WANT"-argument is just lame. There are people who learn to master the mechs and make C-Bill with them and they deserve every penny. There is an assault mech option in the Trial mechs if you want to play one without having to worry about the cost. The repair bill is also a way to control drops, it's not just to annoy you.

Quote

I think MWO players are the only mmo players who hate free fictional cash. I don't hear the same complaints from Dungeon & Dragons Online, Hawken, or even World of Tanks.

You really should try Eve Online

[DocBach]

Fooooo, on 27 December 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:

Maybe it would work better if they just removed the bubble.

Make it only "cloak" the mech carrying the ECM. So basically it lets the cicada / raven become a hidden spotter, or at least a better one, commando the same etc etc.......but not everyone else with them.............tho that would probably just mean more people taking ecm mechs..........

Meh who knows......

The bubble is part of the reason why dedicated electronic warfare 'Mechs were an asset - but they are in the lore dedicated to EW missions, you see one providing ECM cover for a whole unit, not an entire unit providing ECM cover like we have here.