1017 replies to this topic

[ICEFANG13]

Yeah I would have appreciated some word from PGI too, even something non-specific...

"We are looking at ECM right now"
"We think it is good, but we will monitor it closely"

Not, "Its working as intended, now get on your knees and work it" on a magazine that, if they didn't ask, we wouldn't even know. Come on, we are beta testers, we give feedback and you change things for the feedback, here's some feedback:

Its not working as intended, unless your intention was to break the game. A heavy majority of players want a nerf to ECM, somewhere between, make it weigh a half ton more, and remove this from the game.

To any poster who does that stupid, "The forums are where people go to complain, ECM is fine, its just that everyone on the forums complains and is very verbal about it."
1: Show us why we are wrong, you can't, its obviously OP, look at what it does to tonnage, that is enough of a comparison.
2: Remember 3rd person view? Well, if the forums are for whining only, we probably should be adding 3rd person to the game, since, 90% of voters voted against it (and around 5% for), but the forums opinions are wrong.

Heck, PGI, why not put 3rd person in too? At this point, its clear to me that our feedback is worthless, why not do whatever you want to the game, take a dart board and give object X what abilities and disadvantages you hit on the board. That is how I feel about ECM. It makes no sense what so ever, and you can't justify it's existence in any way. Saying that counters will be implemented, makes no sense at all. OP item vs OP item, no one will use either, it makes the game more complex.

[drloser]

You can complain, but you show them some respect...

[ICEFANG13]

They can show us respect too, like telling us what's what, or fixing it asap. Right now the game is broken in balance, and all we have, by PC gamer is, "working as intended". I have always defended PGI, even in questionable decisions, but after PC gamer was the way that we learned it was working as intended, despite the fact there was plenty of reasons it was not, I've lost a lot of faith, and continue to as the game is broken like it is.

I used to say, "Sometimes they make weird choices I disagree with, but I try my best to back them up, and offer feedback" and pre-ECM they were pretty good about us giving feedback, and then giving feedback about it, OR, using our feedback on the game. Right now, its like we are only customers and not beta testers, unless my eyes deceive me, this is open beta right?

[Noth]

ICEFANG13, on 27 December 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

They can show us respect too, like telling us what's what, or fixing it asap. Right now the game is broken in balance, and all we have, by PC gamer is, "working as intended". I have always defended PGI, even in questionable decisions, but after PC gamer was the way that we learned it was working as intended, despite the fact there was plenty of reasons it was not, I've lost a lot of faith, and continue to as the game is broken like it is.

I used to say, "Sometimes they make weird choices I disagree with, but I try my best to back them up, and offer feedback" and pre-ECM they were pretty good about us giving feedback, and then giving feedback about it, OR, using our feedback on the game. Right now, its like we are only customers and not beta testers, unless my eyes deceive me, this is open beta right?

You do know they are out of the office right? Making statement about their stance or position on something takes at least 1 meeting to decide on it. They are on vacation, So I wouldn't expect much till after the new year.

[ICEFANG13]

Yes I do understand that, but ECM has been broken for about a month now, and it only took 6 days to say, "working as intended".

[Rocket2Uranus]

CatHerder, on 19 December 2012 - 07:23 AM, said:

The true issue with ECM (besides the ridiculous disrupt bubble) is the fact that its use produces no heat, it requires only space and weight *anywhere* in your mech where you can fit it, whereas its counter-items are either only available in a select few mechs (another ECM, I'll get to that in a minute), or requires a weapon hardpoint and LOS (and god forbid the ECM be on a light mech) and constant "weapon contact" with the target mech (TAG).

The problem with TAG as a counter to ECM - even with its new distance buff - is that light mechs' lag shields still make them near impossible to hit unless your ping is 3ms and you're 5 feet from them. Thus, TAG is all but useless unless they're standing still - which is rarely the case as for light mechs speed is life. Mid-long range, it's near impossible to keep your tag on an enemy light mech unless your ping is REALLY, REALLY LOW and so is theirs.

The problem with ECM as a counter to ECM is the "+1 rule" : the team with the most ECM units will have a huge advantage in battle.

My one suggestion for truly balancing ECM is simply to remove the blanket effect on disrupt (and only on disrupt, counter should still be a blanket although, if you wish, it could be changed to a cone such that the countering mech has to point to the enemy ECM mech somewhat in order to counter).

• Scout mechs with ECM can still scout effectively without being spotted unless they get really careless or foolish
  
• The C&C mech (AS7-D-DC) can still enhance its survivability by being "stealthy", given that it's under-armed for an assault mech
  
• Light mechs running close together as a pack all using ECM are now a less viable option, since a single enemy ECM can counter all of them if they clump up too close. Thus, if you're using ECM, you now have to space out a little bit. This eliminates the newfound role for packs of Ravens as hunter-killers, just tearing everything apart because of their near-invulnerability due ECM+LagShield
  
• We will no longer see processions of 8 mechs under 1 ECM umbrella brazenly crossing open terrain, because they have LRM and are invulnerable to incoming LRM fire.
  
• LRMs are now a viable option again as support fire
  
• Even SMARTER tactical and strategic decisions are needed since now there's no "invisibility" cloak to hide your 3 PPC Awesomes under while you charge forward.

Just my $0.02





If the lag shield weren't an issue, ECM's current form, on light mechs, wouldn't be as much of problem. However, with the Lag Shield in place, it's often necessary to resort to guided weapons (Streak, LRM) to hit lights (let alone accurately). Thus, this combo of ECM + Lag Shield makes for the imbalance to be FAR WORSE than it otherwise would be.

I agree about Light mech Lag shield + ECM making them almost impossible to kill.
I find it amusing that most light mech pilots think they are just godly at this game. LOL

But, to ECM being OP? Yes it is OP, when you don't have an ECM on your team. When both sides have ECM it seems to me like it balances each other out. Only people who get hurt are SSRM/LRM mechs. But That only requires your ECM mech to turn on counter to let the Missles fly.

Anyways, ECM is OP when you don't have one on your team.

But ECM did change the game. You don't see 3-4 Missile boats every match anymore. You start seeing more variety of mechs these days.

I think ECM should work long range. As a counter LRM. But as SSRM shouldn't be effected by ECMs.
But so these light mechs with lag shield don't run around uncontested.

Edited by Rocket2Uranus, 27 December 2012 - 09:51 AM.

[David Decoster]

Right now, especially in PUG matches, it's very simple. Whoever has an advantage in ECM: auto-win (bar a very few exceptions).

[DocBach]

Rocket2Uranus, on 27 December 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

But ECM did change the game. You don't see 3-4 Missile boats every match anymore. You start seeing more variety of mechs these days.

Variety being you sometimes see 3L Ravens and sometimes see D-DC Atlases?

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

Tolkien, on 27 December 2012 - 06:23 AM, said:

One thing to keep in mind is the inconsistent story that is being presented on ECM.

When asking about why ECM hasn`t been fixed I have been told that they really want to see the numbers before they come to any conclusions on ECM, and given that they gather a large amount of data that makes good sense.

At the same time though, even on the 14th of December Paul said that ECM was working as intended and wouldn't need a nerf, so I have a lot of trouble taking the former statement seriously.

The public statement that ECM was fine coming after less than 6 full days of ECM play data is asinine.

But I just can't understand how intelligent people can be so foolish as to think that ECM in its current state is behaving as intended. Is it their intent to kill this game? It's the only conclusion I can come up with.

[ltwally]

drloser, on 26 December 2012 - 10:42 PM, said:

Here's my humble suggestion :
- ECM affects only yourself. You can't fire SSRM or LRM when you use it.
- Decrease SSRM effectiveness by 30% (more heat, less DPS, less ammo...)
- Reintroduce knockdowns

My suggestions for ECM:

• As-is for weight/crits/heat/ammo.
  
• More mechs can carry it.
  
• No effects on sensors/comms (other than what is listed below)
  
• 180m bubble that counters/disrupts/negates: Artemis/Beagle/Narc/Tag
  
• 180m bubble that prevents locking onto the ECM carrier only. (mechs outside that bubble can lock just fine, and it doesn't prevent enemies locking on to friendly units at all.)
  
• 180m bubble that slows lock time by 25 - 50 % (enemy mechs lock on to self and friendly units within 180m slower)
  
• 180m bubble that decreases lock-loss time by 25 - 50 % (enemy mechs lose lock on self and friendly units within 180m faster)

Even this might be slightly overpowered, but it'd be a far cry better than what we currently have.

Additionally, Pilot modules to negate the effects of ECM (for the mech with the module only -- no team bonuses) would be a Good Thing.

My suggestion for S-SRM:
Decreasing value per missile tube, so that after you start adding too many S-SRM's you're getting a diminishing return.

Example:

• 2 to 6 tubes: as is
  
• each 2 tubes beyond 6: increase the locations it can possibly hit (arms, legs. NOT head), and decrease its chance of hitting.

I suggest a rather harsh curve on that nerfing, so that by the time you've hit 10 tubes of S-SRM, it's about as valuable as 8 tubes, and by the time you hit 12 tubes, you were better off at 10. A hard line on how much worse it gets would also be a good thing.

My suggestion for Knockdown:
Knockdown needs to return, but it needs to return in a condition where it does not produce insane results (as it used to), and where it is not ridiculously over-powered, so that no one is willing to run a light mech (like no one wants to run any light mechs but ECM commandos & ravens, now).

Real-World Physics do not always have a place in the game universe. None-the-less, it might be nice to see a 100-tonne Atlas actually be effected when a 40-tonne runs in to it while travelling 150 kph. The kinetic energy involved is not insubstantial, and even that towering hulk would be hard pressed to keep its footing from that impact.

PGI needs to actually learn from their mistakes, and roll things out in baby steps. So, knockdowns should be re-introduced in a weakened state, where they don't happen as often or as harshly as PGI might think they need to, and then ramp up the pain to find a proper balance, instead of doing the opposite, where it is so painful that people get pissed off and go elsewhere. (Apologies, that was a rather nasty run-on sentence.)

[Gulinborsti]

The only thing that is wrong with ECM is that there is only 1 counter to ECM: more ECM
This is the current weakness and unbalancing issue with ECM but there are many possible to solutions:

• make TAG override ECM - TAGed target can be locked
  
• make BAP counter the effects of ECM in some way / within some range
  
• ...

I really don't care if it sticks to the TT rules, this game is - fortunately - already full of adjustments of the TT rules that simply don't work in a real time Mech simulation. And ECM in it's current implementation is not working according TT rules too.


I believe that the DEVs will analyze what is going on with ECM at them moment and weaken - or nerf, you name it - the ECM effects by introducing more viable counters to it.

Hopefully. And hope dies last ...

Edited by Gulinborsti, 27 December 2012 - 02:35 PM.

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

Tolkien, on 27 December 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

When asking about why ECM hasn`t been fixed I have been told that they really want to see the numbers before they come to any conclusions on ECM, and given that they gather a large amount of data that makes good sense.

I think when they say they want to see the numbers first they really mean "let's see how much missed revenue this is costing us from a diminished player base." I'd like to see the in-game player count. I'm sure we all would.

Edited by Brown Hornet, 27 December 2012 - 02:37 PM.

[ICEFANG13]

Actually, I have come up with an answer to why ECM is perfect right now:

PGI must believe that when the netcode is fixed, light mechs will be far too weak, and ECM is the balance for that. Which implies that, right now, the Raven-3L and the Commando-2D (sometimes) are the only mechs to run, after the fixes, they will be the only mechs to run (literally).

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

Gulinborsti, on 27 December 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

The only thing that is wrong with ECM is that there is only 1 counter to ECM: more ECM
This is the current weakness and unbalancing issue with ECM but there are many possible to solutions:

• make TAG override ECM - TAGed target can be locked
  
• make BAP counter the effects of ECM in some way / within some range
  
• ...

I really don't care if it sticks to the TT rules, this game is - fortunately - already full of adjustments of the TT rules that simply don't work in a real time Mech simulation. And ECM in it's current implementation is not working according TT rules too.



I believe that the DEVs will analyze what is going on with ECM at them moment and weaken - or nerf, you name it - the ECM effects by introducing more viable counters to it.

Hopefully. And hope dies last ...

They absolutely MUST remove the 180m counter to TAG and make TAG duration last long enough to get 1 locked shot off. That's all really.

[ltwally]

Noth, on 27 December 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

You do know they are out of the office right? Making statement about their stance or position on something takes at least 1 meeting to decide on it. They are on vacation, So I wouldn't expect much till after the new year.

So, just to make sure we have the chain of events correctly:

Dec 3:
Release patch with horridly imbalanced ECM, which altered game-play to such an extent that most people called it "broken."

Dec 17:
After two weeks of studying the horrific effects of this new and largely unwelcome piece of equipment, they make it slightly weaker, while increasing TAG range as if this is supposed to fix things. They ignore the irony that TAG is a direct-fire piece of equipment that is now necessary for long-range-missiles to work again.
They also nerf jump jets into something so useless that even those who had paid the full weight penalty for the before have now gotten rid of them. Apparently this was just icing on the cake

Dec 24
Go on holiday. Figure out how many players they can drive away while they're drinking eggnog.

[Fabian Wrede]

ECM in current state is so badly balanced that it should be removed. If you end up in match where one side is without ECm its auto loss for that side and if both sideds have ecm same applies if one side has 2+ ECM over other side.

IF PGI fail to see this this game will never be succesfull untill more proper counter to ecm is implemented. As suggested above improve TAG, BAP and also make Narc last longer the current 20s and follow rules from TT were Narc is attached untill location is destoyed.

[HiplyRustic]

How about just removing the invisibility effect and calling it a day?

[Blood78]

Bottom line is that regardless of how it should function on table top vs MWO, ECM needs to balanced and PGI is waiting to see. What will speed this up is people constantly raging about it to speed up balancing.

Which means all of you shoud go out buy ECM light and form ECM goon light pack to roam and really abuse the lack of collison as well as ECM right now to annoy/frustrate other players till PGI steps up and balances it.

To give you guys an example of PGI speeding up tweak after base pool got so angry is the Streak Missiles. They were balanced after a long time when base player pool got finally fed up and PGI started to tinker with it. History being...center torso only to miss about 50% of time to now always hit but half the missile hits random component while other half is center torso. Which is much more balanced weapon and also has hard counter of ECM.

Example of component that doesn't work the way it does on table top vs MWO is double heat sink. Double heatsink doesn't actually dissipate double heat only 1.4 because PGI thought it'd be too OP to dissipate 2 which is true and works great now.

To speed up ECM balance and there are number of various ways to do it. Abuse ECM by rolling in one yourselves and continue to bring up your displeasure. I hope I continue to run into more 2-4 premade ECM light pack that is abusing it and get so widespread every game has one...so that base player pool will rage to PGI about it.

Edited by Blood78, 27 December 2012 - 04:17 PM.

[Kaptain]

[color=#CCCCCC]"stealth range removed completely; stealth goes to new technologies, [/color]Null Signature System[color=#CCCCCC] and [/color]Stealth Armor"

+1000

[Corvus Antaka]

ECM preventing targeting & LRM locks at range continues to be the most significant detriment to good gameplay since ecm was introduced. after a good solid week of 6-8 hours a day, while pugs/4 mans are actually pretty fun, 8 mans are an ECM CoD campfest/cluster almost 90% or more of the time. just calling targets is very hard due to no signal or radar, and coring weapons & ecm/ssrm mechs are the best 2 types of guns on the field. LRM's continue to be very noticeably absent.

my biggest gripe is the 8 man humpfests, very little room is left for tactics once an engagement happens, and most often the team that steps into the Line of Fire first & loses the first 2 mechs will almost always lose.

pre-ecm LRM's could flank and pressure the enemy from long range. with cover and the only counter a Line of Site mechanism we've lost the entire magic of something that makes Mechwarrior special.

To be quite frank, if this is the intended direction for gameplay I don't see this game holding much appeal over the long term. tactics and movement where significantly better when LRM's where a factor and holding a small area with assault mechs was much riskier business.