1017 replies to this topic

[HiplyRustic]

Krzysztof z Bagien, on 28 December 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

I don't want to argue with you about the choice of words, but I think the guys that make this game set up the rules for it so it's their thing to say what is supposed to do what. They say they want ECM to work like this and it does. But that's just, you know, semantics. Anyway, the problem remains - it's stupid that ECM is so powerfull without any drawbacks

Way to miss my point. I am saying...to skip the semantics argument...that the Devs are wrong and that they made a ****-poor decision in deciding this was the way to implement ECM.

Better? Harder to misunderstand? Good.

[Lugh]

ShadowSpirit, on 27 December 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

If that is the case then this is a game I won't pay to play. I don't understand what issues PGI felt were so important that they had to make ECM the end all, be all of MWO.

ECM defines matches more often than not .... this game isn't about the mechs anymore it's about ECM. Sure, tactics come into play but seriously ...

1) Scrambles radar at close range -- can't target a damn thing
********. I can target ECM mechs just fine at any range,
2) Provides lock immunity -- Streaks & LRMs out
Again ******** equip a tag for long and short range ecm busting fun
3) Provides radar invisibility -- nearly requires the use of heat vision to counter -- which leads to the question why have all the pretty scenery?
Again ******** the more people tag the more lit up the map comes to being 'regular'
4) Limited to only a few mechs which reduces the diversity of mechs on the battlefield. There was no such limitation in tabletop and ECM didn't do nearly as much. There have been online battetech game based on the table top and they were great successes (MPBT, MPBT 3025 come to mind) before EA pulled the plug because they didn't want to give money to Microsoft.



It has in no way shape or form altered my or any other competant pilots ability to pilot what they will...




Thanks.

Editted for a splash of truth

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

HiplyRustic, on 28 December 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

Way to miss my point. I am saying...to skip the semantics argument...that the Devs are wrong and that they made a ****-poor decision in deciding this was the way to implement ECM.

Better? Harder to misunderstand? Good.

You don't need to get angry, I totally get you and I think exactly the same.

[StalaggtIKE]

thefinn, on 27 December 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

Increase lock-on time ? What are you smoking - there IS NO LOCKON.

You are incorrect. It's a bit confusing but, I'll try to explain. ECM currently does 2 things, that affect lock-on weapons:

• mechs within ECM can not be detected by radar until within 200m
  
• mechs within ECM can not be locked-on within 180m

Thus you have a tiny 20m window to lock-on to targets, within ECM bubble. We both want to see ECM balanced, just in different ways. I prefer to see it more like TT. As for AMS, you've had better luck than I. I have been carrying dual AMS on my Stalker and Atlas. Though I realize they help, I feel they're not worth the weight.





@ICEFANG13: I know that feeling. I would love to be playing MWO, but I've been playing Saints Row 3. I get the same chaotic close range firefights in both games, the difference being that SR3 isn't supposed to be taken seriously.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 28 December 2012 - 08:38 PM.

[ShadowSpirit]

ECM is basically a requirement now. It shouldn't be.

[Goldhawk]

DocBach, on 27 December 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

Copy pasting this write up a lot tonight


List I made on what I think Information Warfare should look like in the game from a different post:


ECM needs to be toned down and other components like Beagle and Narc need to be toned up. ECM should not provide stealth 'Mech ability to an entire team, it should:

-Disrupt Beagle's ability to detect shut down 'Mechs
-Negate the tight groupings of Artemis-enhanced missiles
-Negate the tight groupings of Narc-enhanced missiles, as well as prevent indirect fire on a Narc'd 'Mech without LOS (more on this later)
-Prevent spotters in the ECM bubble, or on the other side of, with line of sight passingh through a bubble from transmitting target data to team mates outside the bubble
-Make target ID slower to acquire, but not block locks or targeting completely
-Generate ghost targets - bring up the command map with B in ghost target mode and plot a false radar signal that shows up like a target shrouded by ECM - target-able by R, but no target data available
-Run counter ECM

Artemis:
-No Changes, should tighten LRM groups against targets in line of sight

Beagle should:
-Detect shutdown 'Mechs outside of ECM bubbles
-Negate ECM's target acquisition slowdown while outside the bubble
-Notify the user that they are in the ECM bubble, sort of how we automatically have now with the low signal our sensors would know there is an ECM around, but not know where the actual bubble starts or ends.

Narc should:
-Tighten LRM/SRM grouping on targets in line of sight
-Allow targets marked by Narc to remain targeted even when LOS is lost so LRM attacks can continue indirectly without spotters
-Last for either an extended duration than current or until the location the Narc hit is destroyed

A couple simple changes would make all of the advanced EW equipment viable, while remaining faithful to the source material without being game breaking or overpowering. ECM would still be useful to take, especially for protection against LRM spotters, as it would prevent them from sending target data to their LRM boats, protect you from Narc which would actually be a useful item if it kept enemies lit up on radar for indirect fire without a spotter like the rules say it does, and give Beagle expanded roles like countering ECM outside of the bubble (inspired by detection rules from MaxTech), and serving as a warning system that you are inside the bubble propper, which would be useful for spotters trying to Narc targets or transmit data.

The above changes would make information warfare have counters to each other, beyond just ECM, ECM, ECM. It would make it everything a useful addition to a team, but not an absolute necessity or gamebreaker.

I love all of this, but I think the Beagle should show on the map areas of "dead" reception. Otherwise, when you pull up the mini map, there are small circles on the map that may show ECM equipped mechs. Just an idea.

[Parazaine]

PGI....please base ECM on BT rules and not the Wikipedia entry WHICH IS WRONG!

ECM was never intended to umbrella-shield mechs that do not have it installed....IT SHOULD ONLY SHIELD THE MECH CARRYING IT.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE fix this asap....it has unbalanced the game and there are plenty of groups (who I do not blame) that are using this implementation to deadly effect.

When you HAVE to drop 3 or more ECM mechs to just stand a chance in a competitive match AND you give ECM to an assault mech (Atlas D(DC)) then its no wonder that we see ridiculous team configs of 3 ravens and 5 Atlas D(DC)'s.

ECM in it's current incarnation is BROKEN and it's broken because PGI didn't do their homework properly and relied uopn that unimpeachable source (wikipedia) for their data.

There are other issues why players may be abandoning the game (like netcode etc) but this ECM implementation has made things worse....please stop shooting yourselves in the feet PGI!

[Pan Damonium]

When I hear that players are leaving the game because xxxx is over powered or xxxx isn't working right or xxxx isn't powerful enough...I guess I just have to laugh. When I created my account it was with the knowledge that this game is in Beta. We are testing it. We are supposed to be helping establish what works and what doesn't. When a player leaves a game's test environment because the game doesn't live up to their ideals, they are only revealing themselves as people we probably don't want to play the game with anyway - I don't want to play with idiots!

ShadowSpirit, on 27 December 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

Who cares about Phase 3 if we don't make it through Phase 2? People dropping like flies.

Who told these people they should expect perfection in this unfinished product? Why can't people realize that the entire game is going to be changing CONSTANTLY until...well even after Beta I'm sure changes will continue, so nothing about it is really permanent. Why is there so much freakin' whining?!

I know, how about you contribute your opinions in a constructive way so that the developers can actually work out ways to make the game run smoothly. Players are leaving because ECM is a powerful tool right now? People are so thick sometimes I can't even stomach it. I guess I just expect people in this environment to have at least a slight clue, and I'm more than a little disappointed to learn that the MWO community is crawling with what seem to be spoiled cry-babies with overdeveloped sense of entitlement. If I decide not to stick with this game, it will be the players, not the game, that drive me away...

Edit: Sorry about the rant. I guess I had to get that out of my system, its been building for a few days now.

On topic though, I have to confess - I have been in matches where we were victorious against people with ECM, and had none ourselves (as a PuG even). It certainly changes how one has to respond to things, but ECM is still not enough to over-power clever tactics and observation. The thing is, ECM can't actually hurt you (no damage at all!) - it just keeps you from being able to rely on certain approaches to dealing damage yourself. That said, if you drop in any mech assuming you can use the same weapons every time (missiles for example) and don't have backup weapons of some kind then it is you, not ECM, that is causing you to lose.

Edited by Pan Damonium, 28 December 2012 - 10:57 PM.

[ShadowSpirit]

Pan Damonium, on 28 December 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

When I hear that players are leaving the game because xxxx is over powered or xxxx isn't working right or xxxx isn't powerful enough...I guess I just have to laugh. When I created my account it was with the knowledge that this game is in Beta. We are testing it. We are supposed to be helping establish what works and what doesn't. When a player leaves a game's test environment because the game doesn't live up to their ideals, they are only revealing themselves as people we probably don't want to play the game with anyway - I don't want to play with idiots!

The moment this went public beta and they started implementing features for cash .... it turned into a an effort to keep people playing (and paying).

If they cared about the quality of testers and testing this game would still be in closed beta where it belongs. This stuff should have already been figured out IMO.

Granted, we all have to make money so it is what it is.

Thanks.

Edited by ShadowSpirit, 29 December 2012 - 12:04 AM.

[LynxFury]

Pan Damonium, on 28 December 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

That said, if you drop in any mech assuming you can use the same weapons every time (missiles for example) and don't have backup weapons of some kind then it is you, not ECM, that is causing you to lose.

Inability to identify damaged parts of enemy mechs effects all the direct fire weapons as well...or at least all but the shortest range ones. ECM is not only a radar shield, it serves to distribute damage received like nothing else--more than making up for its 1.5 tons in "effective armor." I like long and mid range games more than the typical furballs--in an ECM world it seems just about every match is a fur ball.

[Mordin Ashe]

Funny thing is ECM made me play less since the game isn't fun as it used to be. So I go through all MW4 games and their campaings, to stay faithfull to the brand.

I am affraid what has already been said really happens. One can clearly tell how the games look like when there is ECM and where there is none. Without ECM I see standard flanking, some ambushes, close to long range firefights, you name it. Once ECM is present, both teams just form a zerg and charge the enemy. Paul, you said ECM added depth into the game. Where is it? I see the game becomming a very, very flat and shallow with ECM, not vice versa.
All in all, current ECM implementation is a poor game designer decision. Good thing is that those can be changed, so no real harm done, but due to ECM the game isn't much fun for the past month or so. I still do play, but the game feels a lot less rewarding and engaging. Hope that changes soon.

[Orthodontist]

Nope. I like the game more now more than ever. The repair system is an archaic system that slows down the game...OUTside of the actual game.

The game is better off where it is now.

[Black Ivan]

ECM in game is working like the Star League Nullpoint System. PGI had no clue how to do it right and simply took the next best mechanic they could find. That is how ECM was implemented.

For me they broke the game since ECM is now defining every match. The side with the most ECM will win automatically and that only mechs which can carry ECM or can sniper will be played in the long run.

Match making is catastrophic. It randomly puts 8 player groups against each other without taking weight or composition into account.

[Roland Verliden]

I will share all of my thoughts on how ECM influences the game:
-For a short answer, I think it does have too much sway on how a match goes. In my experience, it is not impossible to win if only the enemy team has ECM, but you do often wish that someone on your team had it.
-Mordin made a good point: it seems that more and more matches devolve into closer-ranged brawls. From my perspective, I haven't been using LRMs a lot, even on my Catapult. I don't know what causes these brawls, though, so whether ECM is the cause of that is not my call, though ECM does make them more frantic and deadly for the following reasons:
-Problem: most mechs carrying ECM are quick light mechs. Despite the ECM bubble only reaching out to 180-200m, a light mech will close that distance quickly, and the ECM makes them an even bigger nuisance. Yes, there's the slow Atlas D-DC, but it's wrapped in quite a bit of armor, which leads to my next point:
-Problem: coordination between players is still an issue. Despite C3 VOIP integration and multiple TS3 servers, coordination is still an issue (if only for PUGs). In my opinion, some sort of voice callout or ping, like in many other multiplayer games, could alleviate this problem, though it will still fall on the players to some degree to pick up the slack.
-On the first page, hammerreborn does raise a good point about knockdowns: were these reimplemented (and I think the devs do plan to put them back in), it would be easier to deal with ECM-carrying light mechs.
-As for actual changes to the ECM, I agree that making it behave more like the tabletop version will be a better route to go, though tweaking it to achieve a balance between its current form and the tabletop version would be interesting, depending on how that is pursued.

Edited by Roland Verliden, 29 December 2012 - 02:54 AM.

[Xendojo]

See my signature? Iv'e had it that way since closed beta.

[Mordin Ashe]

Yep. Had three games now, all three ruined by ECM. The enemy team had 4 ECM and our team had one (and in one match two). We couldn't see the enemy, target the enemy, were jammed constantly and since they just zerged got crushed. Blind and pointless.
So, everytime this happens, I just alt+f4. It sucks and frankly I think it is disgracefull to run away from battle like that, but hey, it isn't my fault that my team doesn't stand a chance. So throw rocks at me as you wish, but it is the only thing I can do against such teams.

[Stingz]

Mordin Ashe, on 29 December 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

Yep. Had three games now, all three ruined by ECM. The enemy team had 4 ECM and our team had one (and in one match two). We couldn't see the enemy, target the enemy, were jammed constantly and since they just zerged got crushed. Blind and pointless.
So, every-time this happens, I just alt+f4. It sucks and frankly I think it is disgraceful to run away from battle like that, but hey, it isn't my fault that my team doesn't stand a chance. So throw rocks at me as you wish, but it is the only thing I can do against such teams.

There's a good rule that PUGs need to learn, and it's slow mechs stay in a group, and focus down ECM mechs first. ECM is only useful for radar jamming, kill the carrier and it's gone. Direct-fire still hurts, so keep shooting.

Some parts of ECM still need to be changed though,(Radar Cloaking, that's Null-Signature!)

[ICEFANG13]

I have stood by the game, even when slightly unbalanced, but since OCT 3 (around when I joined or so), nothing except the hotfixed LRM death from above was OP, and we have to deal with this OP ECM for a month now. that's why you may see a lot of people up in arms about it. I've enjoyed this game completely pre-ECM, except for a couple days with LRMonline, but I really just can't enjoy it anymore. It is just ECM, which has made the game boring and dull, that sucks that fun right out.

I also don't like the removal of R&R, although I think I make more money now (because of my ferro armor), the rewards suck too. Feels like no matter what I do, I will get the same amount at the end of the game. I can't 'man up' and work faster to make a number faster, its always the same. Bleh.

[Mordin Ashe]

Stingz, on 29 December 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

There's a good rule that PUGs need to learn, and it's slow mechs stay in a group, and focus down ECM mechs first. ECM is only useful for radar jamming, kill the carrier and it's gone. Direct-fire still hurts, so keep shooting.

Some parts of ECM still need to be changed though,(Radar Cloaking, that's Null-Signature!)

Yep, direct fire works well, but not if you are facing two enemy groups of four with huge number of ECM against team of PUGs. Simply no chance...

[Elder Thorn]

Stingz, on 29 December 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

There's a good rule that PUGs need to learn, and it's slow mechs stay in a group, and focus down ECM mechs first. ECM is only useful for radar jamming, kill the carrier and it's gone. Direct-fire still hurts, so keep shooting.

Some parts of ECM still need to be changed though,(Radar Cloaking, that's Null-Signature!)

the problem PUGs have against ECM is that you don't know whats going on.
Either your mates dissapear and die unheard in the ECM bubble, or you don't know what is going on arround you.

Yes, part of that can be fixed be staying together but in heat of combat people will drift away, especially in pugs, thats their very nature.

Don't get me wrong, i like ECM as it is, even if i die from time to time because i get trapped, just saying that PUGs suffer very hard from a lance making good use of ECM.