1017 replies to this topic

[William Draven]

From sarna.net:
The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.

In other words, if you can't aim at a target that is shooting at you, you shouldn't be playing MWO anyway. I have many run-ins with ECM, yeah, but that's what Thermals or manual aiming is for. Aim people, not hard. Especially you KB/M users.

[Scarlett Avignon]

StalaggtIKE, on 01 January 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

No. I don't feel ECM created a poor play experience, just a shallow one. ECM dictates the game. If two opposing teams with equal skill and teamwork battled. The team with most ECM clearly has the advantage. You may want to reread the definition of entitled, you sound pretty entitled your self. Believe it or not, pugs are what will keep this game profitable for PGI.

So, what you are saying is that, all other things being equal, a team that is better equipped will have an advantage?

Please go on, your concept fascinates me...

And yes, if I've put the effort into working together with a group of people, in a game where teamwork is a core mechanic and meant to be advantaged, I do feel I should have the advantage over people who just click "launch."

Also, provide me with some proof of your "PUGs will make the game profitable" statement, too, while you are at it.

[Frisk]

1.5 tons of game breaking OP-win.

Just got out of a pug drop where a group of 4 3Ls with ECMs rushed our base. No one could hit them and they constantly kept slamming into us and each other. That netcode plus ECM is win.

I'm going to wait a few patches before I play anymore. ECM needs to be adjusted.

[StalaggtIKE]

William Draven, on 01 January 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

From sarna.net:
The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.

Great find! In other words, it is working well beyond its means.



@Frisk: Nice sig. Did you make it yourself?

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 01 January 2013 - 11:24 AM.

[Scarlett Avignon]

ICEFANG13, on 01 January 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

Are you so thick as to shut down exactly what I said, the idea that a game with 16 people, all of which are PUGs (at least when I asked both teams), having ECM, nothing is wrong with that?

So I dropped in an 8 man, and all 16 had ECM, happy now? That is even more consistent, read it again.

You are blaming ECM for another problem you are having.

And so what about 16 people having ECM? That's by far an anomaly. I play PUGs once in a while, too, just to make sure I understand the experience. Everyone having ECM has never happened to me. Not saying it doesn't happen, just saying it's rare. Even then, it would be a self-rectifying problem, since everyone has the same "advantage."

[William Draven]

StalaggtIKE, on 01 January 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

Great find! In other words, it is working well beyond its means.

Well, that part is up to PGI to fix. However, looke at the other HALF of my post. Stop taking things out of context, you're not going to get anywhere doing so. So here is a reminder of the other half:

William Draven, on 01 January 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

In other words, if you can't aim at a target that is shooting at you, you shouldn't be playing MWO anyway. I have many run-ins with ECM, yeah, but that's what Thermals or manual aiming is for. Aim people, not hard. Especially you KB/M users.

Before you people go bantering on about how it's "so hard to hit the enemy manually" take this into consideration.

I play an a craptasitc Compaq Presario where my fps NEVER goes above 17fps, yet I can STILL manually aim and hit an enemy that is using ECM. Grow up and stop complaining. If I can play and survive ECM at an average of 12fps, you can with your pricey 90fps and up computers. There. I'm done.

Edited by William Draven, 01 January 2013 - 11:33 AM.

[Mudhawk]

DocBach, on 01 January 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

What if I'm sick of playing in a D-DC or a Raven, but want to still be relevant? What does this game have to offer me?

Usually I'd quip something like "A Commando or a Cicada" as a comment but seeing how such things seem to derail on a constant basis please forget that I mentioned it.
But if this phrase wasn't just a rhetorical question I'd advice you to decide on what you want to kill the most.
Is it those pesky Lights?
A Cataphract with 2 LBX 10 in the Arms and Lasers is quite nasty , ECM or no.
Stick with your Artillery though. You are slow so place yourself where the lights will show up on their own accord.
A Cat K2 with 2 Ultra5 works well too, but those sure lack reliability.
If you are more into Big Game Hunting, a Stalker can be equippe with up to 6 PPCs. Its a bit insane for sure but a good shot can actually down any Atlas in 2 salvos.
Once again I'm more familiar with the Cat K2, but that one can sport 4 PPCs too. On good days I oneshoot Ravens and threeshoot Atlasses. The last good day was sunday. Then again, haven't played since that day thanks to New Years Partys and Hangover...^^

[StalaggtIKE]

William Draven, on 01 January 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

Well, that part is up to PGI to fix. However, looke at the other HALF of my post. Stop taking things out of context, you're not going to get anywhere doing so. So here is a reminder of the other half:

LOL. Nothing was taken out of context. *Do you know what that means?* The first half was quoted from sarna.net. The other half was simply your opinion, thus irrelevant.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 01 January 2013 - 11:40 AM.

[ICEFANG13]

Franklen Avignon, on 01 January 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

You are blaming ECM for another problem you are having.

And so what about 16 people having ECM? That's by far an anomaly. I play PUGs once in a while, too, just to make sure I understand the experience. Everyone having ECM has never happened to me. Not saying it doesn't happen, just saying it's rare. Even then, it would be a self-rectifying problem, since everyone has the same "advantage."

Its true that all 16 ECM helps make the advantage goes away, I'm glad you agree that ECM is OP and requires ECM to counter it, as if one team was down 1 ECM, all of their ECM would be worthless (7 counters to counter theirs, 1 left over covers teammates).

Have you ever had all players on a team in a PUG run the exact same thing? How about the same equipment? I've never had that happen, LRMs, SSRMs, Medium Lasers, all of those things are really easy to bring on a mech, much easier than ECM, but I've never seen 2 entire teams have just one of those weapons.

[Big Bad Wulf]

Frisk, on 01 January 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

1.5 tons of game breaking OP-win.

Just got out of a pug drop where a group of 4 3Ls with ECMs rushed our base. No one could hit them and they constantly kept slamming into us and each other. That netcode plus ECM is win.

I'm going to wait a few patches before I play anymore. ECM needs to be adjusted.

Hi,

I am just curious, how many were you defending the base? because I had a similar experience (ice city - cave rush) 3 3L's and a Cicada - they all died along with the rest of their team though they did manage to cap half but that was how far they got when the fast response team pounced on them.

Can you give a slightly more detailed account on to what really happened, if possible from the start of the drop (i.e. was strategy discussed and so forth)

Thanks

[Jale]

You all are fighting over ... NOTHING - there is ton more stuff to come in game that will balance up, but as they arent implemented in the game yet, balance is crashed. Thats why its called BETA !

Edited by Jale, 01 January 2013 - 11:49 AM.

[Scarlett Avignon]

ICEFANG13, on 01 January 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

Its true that all 16 ECM helps make the advantage goes away, I'm glad you agree that ECM is OP and requires ECM to counter it,

Darn your craftiness! Obviously you tricked me into saying exactly that! You totally didn't just take what I said out of context in a poor attempt to seem like you've won some point! CURSES!

ICEFANG13, on 01 January 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

as if one team was down 1 ECM, all of their ECM would be worthless (7 counters to counter theirs, 1 left over covers teammates)

I guess that's the disadvantage to a game-style where you are forced to immediately run to within 180m of all other opponents at the start of a battle. (Seriously, do you even understand how stupid you and every one in that match was if that is what they did?)

ICEFANG13, on 01 January 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

Have you ever had all players on a team in a PUG run the exact same thing? How about the same equipment? I've never had that happen, LRMs, SSRMs, Medium Lasers, all of those things are really easy to bring on a mech, much easier than ECM, but I've never seen 2 entire teams have just one of those weapons.

No, all Small Laser builds and Dual Gauss Cat builds and Quad AC/2 builds and all Medium Laser builds never happen more than once per match. ECM is the only piece of equipment that everyone uses regularly.

Good point.

Edited by Franklen Avignon, 01 January 2013 - 11:49 AM.

[William Draven]

StalaggtIKE, on 01 January 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

LOL. Nothing was taken out of context. *Do you know what that means?* The first half was quoted from sarna.net. The other half was simply your opinion, thus irrelevant.

Are you really going to resort to taunting me by assuming I do not know what I meant when I was the one who typed the post? How childish are you? You're acting like a 12 year-old.

Manual aiming is not an opinion, it is an action you can take to counter ECM. If you want to deal damage use your own capability to aim, unless you're just that bad a shot, in which case that's something you should work on.

Edited by William Draven, 01 January 2013 - 11:54 AM.

[ICEFANG13]

Jale, on 01 January 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

You all are fighting over ... NOTHING - there is ton more stuff to come in game that will balance up, but as they arent implemented in the game yet, balance is crashed. Thats why its called BETA !

I don't think I'll want to play a game where ECM is the norm for power level, and it devolves into some weird counter each other game all day. I prefer how other weapons have weak spots and strong spots, but never have a point where they cannot win a battle, and if you didn't put yourself in that position.

Franklen Avignon, on 01 January 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Darn your craftiness! Obviously you tricked me into saying exactly that! You totally didn't just take what I said out of context in a poor attempt to seem like you've won some point! CURSES!



I guess that's the disadvantage to a game-style where you are forced to immediately run to within 180m of all other opponents at the start of a battle. (Seriously, do you even understand how stupid you and every one in that match was if that is what they did?)



No, all Small Laser builds and Dual Gauss Cat builds and Quad AC/2 builds and all Medium Laser builds never happen more than once per match. ECM is the only piece of equipment that everyone uses regularly.

Good point.

I'm glad we see eye to eye, as still no one can name a disadvantage to bringing ECM, I assume that everyone thinks its OP.

Edited by ICEFANG13, 01 January 2013 - 11:55 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

William Draven, on 01 January 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

Are you really going to resort to taunting me by assuming I do not know what I meant when I was the one who typed the post? How childish are you? You're acting like a 12 year-old.

Manual aiming is not an opinion, it is an action you can take to counter ECM. If you want to deal damage use your own capability to aim, unless you're just that bad a shot, in which case that's something you should work on.

....



Edit: I had a response but lost it half way through your post.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 01 January 2013 - 11:58 AM.

[Scarlett Avignon]

William Draven, on 01 January 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

You're acting like a 12 year-old.

You do realize there's a good chance he is 12, right? That's not even an insult. Their argument style suggests they haven't even taken a high school-level debate course.

[ltwally]

SPencil, on 01 January 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

Get drunk for a few days and that one thread explodes. Still here Itwally? I thought you left for Hawken.

Thanks for the open antagonism. It really helps your arguments shine.

Quote

The idea I'm trying to get across here is: ECM in it's current state—considering the current state of MW:O itself—is fine. .........

"Fine," huh?

This 1.5 tonne device is only available on 4 mech variants. That's less than 10% of current mechs, and yet it shows up in nearly every match. It's must-have equipment. So much so that those 4 mech variants are now, suddenly, the 4 most likely mechs to appear in any match.

For 1.5 tonnes, it's a far better missile shield than AMS -- which also weighs 1.5 tonnes (assuming a bare minimum of ammunition), but unlike AMS, has no risk of running out of ammo or suffering an ammo explosion. It also: counters/disrupts/negates Artemis, Beagle and Narc, as well as denying basic sensors so that you cannot tell Friend from Foe.

For 1.5 tonnes, it's nearly removed the spotter/LRM combo, unless there's been a group that planned ahead and equipped scouts with TAG (something they previously rarely had).

For 1.5 tonnes, it's demanded that mechs stay grouped together so that they can be protected by missile shields. Spreading out is no longer an option.

For 1.5 tonnes, it sways battles.

And that's "fine"?

Why not just complete the "fine"-ness, and have it render its wielder completely invincible. Oh, and make him fly like superman.

Quote

However, that doesn't mean that ECM won't be forced to change as MW:O develops and evolves.

That'll only happen if people rise up against the abomination that ECM is in its current form.

Yet, advocating for that change is seen as "whining".

Quote

Because the game is still in development I'm more willing to let some of the less then subtle balance issues slide. Plus, it's important to recognize that the game will evolve as development progresses. It's safe to assume that the MW:O we play today will not be the same as the MW:O we play next month, or in 3 months, or in a year. The differences might be subtle, but I guarantee the balance will have been shifted.

True. Bugs are to be expected. Occasional snafus are to be expected. But this is far from the first time that PGI has released equipment in drastically overpowered form. This is just the latest and greatest example of this trend. And they'll keep doing it, unless we help them understand that they're doing it wrong.

Quote

We are in an awesome position that we can indirectly influence the game's development. Having said that, you'll be much more effective at doing so when you stop simply complaining about it.

Thank you for confirming what I'd posted above.

You want us to help them better, but when we give feedback, it's "complaining."

It's not whining. It's not complaining.

It's criticism. Hopefully constructive. And certainly well earned.

[Scarlett Avignon]

ICEFANG13, on 01 January 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

I'm glad we see eye to eye, as still no one can name a disadvantage to bringing ECM, I assume that everyone thinks its OP.

1. We don't see eye-to-eye. Don't play coy. Your comments aren't nearly clever enough for that.

2. You're limited to only 4 out of 12 chassis, for the time being, 2 of which are lights which will be severely disadvantaged once collisions are re-introduced.

3. What are you basing your assumption on?

[StalaggtIKE]

ltwally, on 01 January 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

You want us to help them better, but when we give feedback, it's "complaining."

I've concluded that voicing your opinion is only feedback if everyone agrees, else it's either whining or complaining.

[Scarlett Avignon]

ltwally, on 01 January 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Thank you for confirming what I'd posted above.

You want us to help them better, but when we give feedback, it's "complaining."

It's not whining. It's not complaining.

It's criticism. Hopefully constructive. And certainly well earned.

The thread's title is: "ECM DROVE ME TO HAWKEN"


That's not constructive. That's a child holding their breath until they get what they want.

I completely agree with you that not all criticism is bad. I've had my fair share of criticism for the game in the past. But this thread isn't constructive in any way. It's kids who refuse to acknowledge any view point but their own.

Edited by Franklen Avignon, 01 January 2013 - 12:05 PM.