1017 replies to this topic

[ICEFANG13]

Franklen Avignon, on 01 January 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

The thread's title is: "ECM DROVE ME TO HAWKEN"


That's not constructive. That's a child holding their breath until they get what they want.

I completely agree with you that not all criticism is bad. I've had my fair share of criticism for the game in the past. But this thread isn't constructive in any way. It's kids who refuse to acknowledge any view point but their own.

Actually its "Ecm Drove Me To Hawken", maybe you have trouble reading and that explains your inability to name a disadvantage to ECM? Why don't you now?

[ltwally]

Willie Sauerland, on 01 January 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

The fact you and your fanboi Icefang can't adapt is, as I have said, not my issue. Enjoy Hawken!

The "adapt" argument, again.

How much bad does one have to adapt to before we can stop being told we must adapt? How much not-fun does a game have to hit before we can say "enough", for you?

If you don't mind ECM being horridly overpowered and breaking game balance, fine.

I didn't see anyone tell you that you have to stop playing. Please, stop telling us that we have to adapt. It's obnoxious, pointless and counter-productive to a worthwhile debate.

[ltwally]

Franklen Avignon, on 01 January 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

There's your problem right there. Anytime someone complains about the game and then follows with "I was playing PUGs" I almost tune them out now. Anytime you play such an intensively teamwork-based game with a PUG, you should expect to have sub-optimal performance. Especially when you are talking about the use of ECM.

Spending the extra effort to find a group and play with them as a cohesive unit should reward a player with better results.

If joining a team was necessary, then PGI should have made that apparent up front.

If joining a team was required, there should much better systems for it inside the game itself.

If PGI is not interested in making PUG games viable and enjoyable, then why make it possible at all?

Are you telling me that because you don't care if PUG games are balanced, that they shouldn't be?

Telling me that I'm playing the game as it is presented, without going to the extra (sometimes insanely PITA) effort of finding and joining some clan or what-not, and that I'm doing it wrong is... well... can you even hear yourself?

[Scarlett Avignon]

I'm dropping out of this thread, because it's obviously going nowhere. OP has a viewpoint and refuses to see anything else. Congratulations.

I will say this, though. Your thread it titled "ECM DROVE ME TO HAWKEN" as if that means something special. If I were to say "I'm leaving this game to play Madden" would anyone care? No, because it has a completely different game style and that means I probably wasn't going to be interested in this style of game, anyway. HAWKEN falls in that category. It's much more akin to CoD and Unreal Tournament than it is to Mechwarrior. HAWKEN is a FPS where you happen to be in a robot. If OP prefers HAWKEN, then it's because HAWKEN is a completely different style of game than MWO, not because of ECM.

Since that's the case, I wish him fun in HAWKEN, and I think the MWO player-base is better off. Not because he doesn't deserve to be here, but if you don't like a particular style of game, you shouldn't play it. Everyone will be happier if we all play what we enjoy. There's no shame in that, it's just a fact.

Peace.

ICEFANG13, on 01 January 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Actually its "Ecm Drove Me To Hawken", maybe you have trouble reading and that explains your inability to name a disadvantage to ECM? Why don't you now?

"The thread's title isn't 'ECM DROVE ME TO HAWKEN' it's 'ECM DROVE ME TO HAWKEN'"
Just to paraphrase you. Oh, and read up, I did name disadvantages.

ltwally, on 01 January 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

If joining a team was necessary, then PGI should have made that apparent up front.

Go read the Dev Blogs where they outlined the core mechanics of the game. They made that very apparent almost literally in their first post about the game.

[ltwally]

Gremlich Johns, on 01 January 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

Since there is sooooo much heartburn related to the implementation of ECM by PGI, why don't the haters ( I am one) just boycott the game for a full 7-day week. With the new year started and PGI back to work, let them know how you really feel. I know I can find something else to do for a full week and it does not involve playing another video game.

I tried that. I even let PGI know that I was spending my time with another, and why I was doing so.

I was accused of complaining.

I was called a whiner.

I was told to adapt.

My name is ltwally, and on the advice of my peers, I'm going to douse my computer in gasoline and burn the f***er. That way, the PGI lick-spittles can convince PGI to add flying sharks with lazors, and they won't have to worry about me talking about "balance" any more.

[Noth]

Franklen Avignon, on 01 January 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

Go read the Dev Blogs where they outlined the core mechanics of the game. They made that very apparent almost literally in their first post about the game.

No where do they say joining an organized team is necessary. In fact their actions prove that they want the pug game to be balanced and fun for the pugger. Puggers are what keep games going.

[ICEFANG13]

Maybe he prefers Hawken because its more fun?

I love how a majority want a nerf to ECM (somewhere between make it weigh half a ton more, and remove it from the game), and the pro-ECM get all up in a tizzy when they cannot name any disadvantages to taking it.

[ltwally]

Franklen Avignon, on 01 January 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

Again, there's your problem.

Another post saying that PUG'ing is the problem. Not ECM. PUG.

Equipment balance doesn't matter as long as you stick to groups, so that everyone has adequate ECM.

Oh, and we also hate the whole "indirect LRM fire" thing, so we celebrate it going away as well. Brawling only, here, folks.

Jale, on 01 January 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

You all are fighting over ... NOTHING - there is ton more stuff to come in game that will balance up, but as they arent implemented in the game yet, balance is crashed. Thats why its called BETA !

In a beta, bugs are to be expected. Even some fine-tuning.

But PGI consistently and repeatedly releases new items in badly over-powered state, forcing players to suffer through the all the while being called names while giving feedback, before they finally nerf things down to sane levels.

So, while bugs are to be expected, it would be nice if we didn't have to expect over-powered equipment being dropped on us once a month.

[Scar]

Gremlich Johns, on 01 January 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

ECM = electronic countermeasures
TAG = laser target designator = light
ECM does not = light therefore ECM has no effect on TAG laser

If it did, we would not be able to fire a laser at an ECM mech and damage it.

What this does equal is that the developers need to read more before they implement something.

Wrong.

Basically, TAG it's a laser designator, which reflection can be jammed by the optical jamming systems, like Shtora.

[ltwally]

Franklen Avignon, on 01 January 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

The thread's title is: "ECM DROVE ME TO HAWKEN"


That's not constructive. That's a child holding their breath until they get what they want.

I completely agree with you that not all criticism is bad. I've had my fair share of criticism for the game in the past. But this thread isn't constructive in any way. It's kids who refuse to acknowledge any view point but their own.

I can see your point.

I even respect your point.

Concerning the thread title, here is my point:
If I named the thread "I don't like ECM" or "plz nerf ECM" or some other such, would it have as much power to PGI's ears as a title that says, "hey, your new busted-as* equipment is why I'm off playing another game." Now, that's a bit long-winded. So I kept it short, simple and to the point.

Because while I'm glad there is commentary (constructive or not) on this thread, the people I really want to read it is PGI. Because they're the only ones that can fix this travesty.

And if I want them to read it, a little juice in the title might grab their attention better.

So be it.

[Big Bad Wulf]

ltwally, on 01 January 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

If joining a team was necessary, then PGI should have made that apparent up front.

If joining a team was required, there should much better systems for it inside the game itself.

If PGI is not interested in making PUG games viable and enjoyable, then why make it possible at all?

Are you telling me that because you don't care if PUG games are balanced, that they shouldn't be?

Telling me that I'm playing the game as it is presented, without going to the extra (sometimes insanely PITA) effort of finding and joining some clan or what-not, and that I'm doing it wrong is... well... can you even hear yourself?

Oh I thought you left already. If you do not like the game why are you still here?

You keep saying ECM is OP yet have not shown actual drop data. I have dropped as a PUG and I see no change in the way I play and yes it does need coordination and teamwork to win consistently. Joining a team is not necessary you just have to talk to the people in your drop and or mastering the art of piloting, shooting and typing - diffcult but very doable. Yes I have consitently coordinated PUG drops by typing.

[ltwally]

Franklen Avignon, on 01 January 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

Go read the Dev Blogs where they outlined the core mechanics of the game. They made that very apparent almost literally in their first post about the game.

Lacking a URL or a even a quote, and finding myself unwilling to spend time flipping through dozens of posts, I'll take your word for it that you are correct on that.

Still...

... I didn't know reading through all the Dev Blogs was required reading to play this game.

...I didn't see that memo when they presented me with a download link.

I guess I'm just lazy. Oh, and stupid, too. Let's insult my intelligence for not reading the entirety of the forum, or for thinking that the Launch button isn't to be used without first going through the troubles of finding and then signing up with a clan so that I didn't have to PUG.

[Draako]

A lot has been said in this thread on ECM. As a mech pilot that doesn't run ECM I have "Adapted" (I know Taboo word) and enjoy the game one again. ECM does need a tweak but I don't think its broken. I find while I lose my map while engaged with an ecm mech I can still see friend and foe and target who I need to target.

The biggest difference is there are more LOS weapons instead of LRM and Streak, or streak and lrm boats now have to take other weapons, again something that I don't mind. The only mechs I despise are the ECM streak mechs, but with teamwork these mechs can be delt with quickly.

I've played this game since closed and have seen a lot of changes good and bad. I am sure there will be many more tweaks and changes in the future, if this version of MWO doesn't suit your play style I am sure there will be changes in the future that you will like. ECM will most likely be kept in the game so if you are looking for its removal I doubt you will see that, but I do think we will see tweaks in its powers and abilities.

[ICEFANG13]

I "adapted" too, I stopped using my Jenner-D, and now only use the Jenner-F, I get more damage per match by a lot, and about as many kills. Doesn't mean the game is balanced, actually the phrase "adapt" kinda implies the opposite.

[William Draven]

And so I shall make my exit. The point has been made, so farewell and good luck with whatever you choose.

[Noth]

Marcus Wulf, on 01 January 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

You keep saying ECM is OP yet have not shown actual drop data. I have dropped as a PUG and I see no change in the way I play and yes it does need coordination and teamwork to win consistently. Joining a team is not necessary you just have to talk to the people in your drop and or mastering the art of piloting, shooting and typing - diffcult but very doable. Yes I have consitently coordinated PUG drops by typing.

I haven't changed how I play, but I've noticed a huge change in how the matches playout. If your team has no ECM, you are probably going to be LRM'd to death (which I can typically deal with no problem). If both sides have a healthy amount of ECM, it just becomes a sniper match until one side gets an advantage. I've also found it way to easy to flank now. Gone was the effort I had to take to make sure to stay completely out of site while flanking. The game feels closer to a generic shooter now than ever. There is also the fact that in 8 mans ECM is a requirement. It is not all about you, it's about the game as a whole. The introduction of ECM didn't add challenge, it didn't add depth, it's not interesting. It gave an easy mode passive protection against LRMs and other things while single handedly making the other LRM counter nearly useless.

The simple fact that the only real counter to ECM is more ECM is proof enough that it is too powerful (no TAG does not counter ECM effectively, it takes too long to lock and only targets one mech in the bubble). Seriously, it took 4 seconds to lock onto an Atlas with TAG. I could get an alpha off in 4 seconds that would do more meaningful damage than an LRM salvo. The time it takes for team mates to launch LRMs on a TAGed target in PUGs can be upwards of 10 seconds. That is not an effective counter.

[Dormax]

ltwally, on 30 December 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

Firstly, Sarna is not cannon; it's not "offiicial." There have been inaccuracies in the past, and so quoting it as a TT source is sometimes not a good idea.

That said, cannon ECM counters/disrupts/negates the following:

• Artemis
  
• Beagle
  
• Narc
  
• C3

The PGI implementation does that, and also:

• kills basic sensors, so you often have no idea who is friend and who is foe
  
• kills missile locks, making you immune to LRM & S-SRM

It's the PGI addons that really wreck things.

I have to agree with this. If they had implemented it as it is in TT, then we wouldn't be having any debates. It would impact C3 (which is basically what all mechs currently have, since we can target what we can't see). But I don't remember the rules anywhere saying that ECM could make a mech completely invisible to sensors.

Fixing it by making TAG break through is kind of a cool idea, given that TAG isn't being used the way TT used it (nor is NARC for that matter).

I'm not a "make it TT or I'm leaving" kind of person. What they did is interesting. But making mechs invisible to all forms of sensors is really where things are "broken." On the flip side, PGI's apparently impressed enough with their creation that they have no intention of changing it. So, hopefully, they will offer different countermeasures than just TAG or another ECM -- enough at least to make it less effective. I like ECM, generally, but I do think it's OP. The reality is that if we all ran ECMs, like we saw when it first came out, then he with the most ECMs wins (which is often the case anyhow). I think the only reason it's not completely destroyed the game is because people have gotten board with their Commandos and Ravens (for the most part) and have moved on to other mechs, such as the new Stalker and the upcoming Spider.

Edited by Dormax, 01 January 2013 - 12:51 PM.

[Willie Sauerland]

StalaggtIKE, on 01 January 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

Your quotes are a goldmine.

I'm glad you like them though comprehension seems to be a bit difficult for you.

Quote

The above doesn't make any sense. How is not changing the way you play a disadvantage to a tool or weapon? Does PGI test things against your playstyle to determine balance now?

Interesting strawman. PGIGP does not balance against my play style. I am still able to play with LRMs which apparently others cannot. I don't use streaks because, as I have said, they are easy mode and not working correctly. However, if by stating that I am able to adapt to changes means they are testing things against my play style, then I suppose you are correct.

I am not disadvantaged by ECM even though many would say that they're "easy button" play style isn't possible anymore. Like I said before, learn to ******* play.

Quote

Less is best in your case.

I will try to use small words for you from now on.

Quote

You contradict yourself too much as it is.

LOL - again, just because you prefer the use of the strawman arguments instead of actually trying to contradict anything I say doesn't mean I contradict myself. It just means you have fallacious arguments, or I am confusing you with words having too many syllables...

Edited by Willie Sauerland, 01 January 2013 - 01:33 PM.

[Gremlich Johns]

ltwally, on 01 January 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

"Fine," huh?

Bullshirt, Hair is "fine"

(Thank you, George Carlin!)

[Willie Sauerland]

StalaggtIKE, on 01 January 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

A new tool is released, making clan play mandatory in order to overcome. Nope, nothing wrong with that. It must be balanced. /sarcasm

{Begin Sarcasm}

You're right! Obviously it isn't ECM itself which is overpowered, it is teamwork!

This game was obviously meant to be played by a single person lone-wolfing it and PGI has completely screwed up your play style.

{End Sarcasm}

Find yourself some friends, get on a team speak server (you'll find them in my sig), and learn to play.