1017 replies to this topic

[Eddrick]

It doesn't take much to get a PUG organized. You just have to make sure everyone has the same basic plan. All they need is someone to set up and take command.

If the leader is in a scout or support role. They will normaly have time to type. Another, effective thing people can do to help a PUG is: relay information whenever possible. You can't realisticaly expect people to type when they are engaged with a target (Unless, they are like one of my friends that can type faster then they can talk).

Voise chat is best. But, messaging is better then nothing.

[Willie Sauerland]

Noth, on 01 January 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

That is flawed thinking. You should not be forced to group up just because of one system that was added to the game.

That is flawed thinking. This game was designed to be a team effort. Therefore, playing in a team should be beneficial no matter what is added to the game.

[ICEFANG13]

Willie Sauerland, on 01 January 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

I often have good games. Your point is?



Why is that terrible? Which do you kill first, the wasp of the fly? Most people I know would kill the fly because it is more annoying even though the sting of the wasp will hurt more. Your argument (which I'm being polite here as it really isn't) lacks any tactical sense - which also explains why you have difficulties with this game.



Huh? LRMs are capable of being dumb fired effectively. This is a fact as many others have done this as well. Your statement is opinion because you don't believe it is possible and do not have the requisite skill set to make it work. Your failure to adapt is your problem and not mine.



Go play your PUG matches. I am finished with you. Your inability to play means more kills and salvage to the other team. And yes, I am ignoring that last little rant. I have said all I need to say and do not need to prove you wrong anymore. I do hope, however, I get to meet your Raven 3L on the field.

That you cannot base your skills off what the game is like, ECM is OP in a mathematical sense, I play well myself, all the time, consistently getting at least 2 kills by myself (not stolen) a match, usually the rest assists (ie somewhere between 6-8 kills and assists combined) and breaking 500 damage to even 900, in a Jenner. That doesn't mean ECM is balanced or unbalanced. Once again, you have failed to name a weakness for ECM, why would I not bring it on a Raven-3L? I assume you are conceding because you cannot.

I kill the freaking wasp first, you are an ***** for killing the fly first, however, its not the ECM isn't a fly, more a fly that in your face constantly whenever you try the wasp, and away when you do not. I kill ECM mechs because I like to pilot light mechs, and its my job to kill other light mechs, but when my friends ask for help with heavier targets, I move to le gasp the most dangerous and not the ECM mech, because he is most dangerous. It doesn't hinder me in the least, but it does hinder my teammates who pack LRMs and SSRMs, and need target info, and need to give me a damn letter to move to.
Can I get some help with Charlie?
Where is he? I can't see him, or you.
I don't even use LRMs, or SSRMs, because ECM counters them, I'm pretty sure if you made a thread/poll about "can LRMs be dumb fired effectively?" you'd get more no's than yes's, and if you induced a "is it more effective than smart firing them" I'm pretty sure you'd get about 1-99% (yes/no) on that.

I don't play Raven-3Ls unless my regiment really wants to play some stupid 8 mans, and I have to bring ECM, to be competitive.

So, once again, you didn't say any disadvantage for ECM, can you now? Why would I not want to bring ECM on a mech that can use it?

[Tolkien]

ICEFANG13, on 01 January 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

Haha Tolkien, very good testing, I can't believe how few TAGs there are, but considering how weak TAG is to ECM, it kinda makes sense.

I also think it's humorous that of all games, only 1 had no-ECM other than you.

I should point out that since it's me and a friend doing the testing It's entirely possible that we don't notice all of the equipment. I try to remember to ask the team 'does anyone have TAG?', but for detecting enemy TAGS we have to notice the tracer laser.

ECM is easier to spot since on your own team you can see the little 'ECM' floating label, while enemy ECMs make themselves known by messing with your systems.

In short, we are probably missing a few TAG systems, though we are pretty confident on our ECM numbers.

[Noth]

Willie Sauerland, on 01 January 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

Wrong on so many levels. I don't always run thermals. In fact, I only run them if I am sniping or on River City Night (I also use night vision there). However, ECM does not prevent me from hitting another mech with anything except SSRMs (which I don't use because they are an easy button and don't work properly).

Dumb firing LRMs can be quite effective. The fact you have only seen it used once on a stationary mech does not negate the experience of those who have done it.

It is true, new players will not find the teamspeak servers because they don't check the forums, but then again, I don't know anybody who would play a BETA game and not check the forums. I do wish the C3 were more reliable and that more people were using it.

And as I have said elsewhere, the new player experience needs a lot of work as simply using the MechLab has a high learning curve let alone playing a big stompy robot. This isn't to say PUG matches should not be balanced (and I am a firm believer that the ELO match-making system will help significantly), but simply saying ECM is the reason why PUG matches are so hard or unbalanced is fallacious.

Which is more unbalancing in PUG matches: Premade groups or ECM?

Right now, ECM. I've had easier times taking out premades than pugs that got lucky to drop with an ECM heavy team.

And no Direct fire LRMs are horrid. They move at 100m/s it takes 5 seconds for them to travel 500 meters. You can walk out of the way in that time. Further you can walk out of the way while unloading on the dumbfiring LRM mech. You may get a few lucky hits, but it's a waste of missiles and tonnage at that point and a liability as you could hit your own team mates.

If you expect the majority of new players to check the forums on an Open Beta, you will be sadly disappointed.

Elo, will help with premades, but not with ECM. You'll still have one side dropping with many more ECMs and currently, that is a huge advantage in pugs, it would still be a large advantage with integrated VoIP. ECM simply does too much for too little and it's only reliable counter in a pug environment is more ECM. Heck then there is the fact that 8 mans often degenerate into which team has more ECMs to out counter the other so that LRMs can rain free. It's way too powerful.

[Noth]

Willie Sauerland, on 01 January 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

That is flawed thinking. This game was designed to be a team effort. Therefore, playing in a team should be beneficial no matter what is added to the game.

Sigh, again, look at the most successful team games, heck just look at the largest in the world currently. Pugs don't have to join a voip, or group, the characters are actively being balanced for both pug and team play. A game being designed for a team effort does not mean it forces you to group. The current gaming market, most players will not join a group and play as a pug, they don't want to go through having to join a server outside of the game just to enjoy it. It is a sure way to cut off the largest demographic in the market.

[StalaggtIKE]

@ICEFANG13: Don't waste your time asking him that question anymore. There is no reason to not carry it, thus you'll never get an answer. To admit that would admit he's wrong. There is not even a valid counter to ECM, other than more of it. All you're going to get is "teamwork", as if that's a new concept. Teamwork beats everything, it always have. But when it becomes mandatory to defeat a sole device, there is a problem. He's not stupid, just stubborn.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 01 January 2013 - 02:56 PM.

[Willie Sauerland]

Noth, on 01 January 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

Right now, ECM. I've had easier times taking out premades than pugs that got lucky to drop with an ECM heavy team.

And no Direct fire LRMs are horrid. They move at 100m/s it takes 5 seconds for them to travel 500 meters. You can walk out of the way in that time. Further you can walk out of the way while unloading on the dumbfiring LRM mech. You may get a few lucky hits, but it's a waste of missiles and tonnage at that point and a liability as you could hit your own team mates.

If you expect the majority of new players to check the forums on an Open Beta, you will be sadly disappointed.

Elo, will help with premades, but not with ECM. You'll still have one side dropping with many more ECMs and currently, that is a huge advantage in pugs, it would still be a large advantage with integrated VoIP. ECM simply does too much for too little and it's only reliable counter in a pug environment is more ECM. Heck then there is the fact that 8 mans often degenerate into which team has more ECMs to out counter the other so that LRMs can rain free. It's way too powerful.

Interesting, when I dropped in PUGs two nights ago during American primtime (I will discount last night given it was New Year's Eve) I only saw one team with more than 2 ECM. Interestingly, both teams had an equal number meaning only 4 ECM in the entire game.

It is not atypical to see 1 or 2 ECM in a game. However, I have to wonder when you are playing to see so many ECM mechs so often in so many games....

8v8 has no weight limits so it is possible to run into 6 D-DC Atlases and 2 3L Ravens. These are "competitive teams" running their MIN/MAX builds. ELO will help with this as well.

As for dumb firing LRMs - I'm tired of arguing about whether or not it is possible or even if it is possible to be successful with the process. Obviously, if you are dumb firing at 500 meters, that would be the first thing you are doing wrong.

StalaggtIKE, on 01 January 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

@ICEFANG13: Don't waste your time asking him that question anymore. There is no reason to not carry it, thus you'll never get an answer. To admit that would admit he's wrong. There is not even a valid counter to ECM, other than more of it. All you're going to get is "teamwork", as if that's a new concept. Teamwork beats everything, it always have. But when it becomes mandatory to defeat a sole device, there is a problem. He's not stupid, just stubborn.

He has been answered but, like you, has failed to comprehend. I suppose I shall move you to my ignore list as well since you are also rather tedious....

[ICEFANG13]

Willie Sauerland, on 01 January 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

Interesting, when I dropped in PUGs two nights ago during American primtime (I will discount last night given it was New Year's Eve) I only saw one team with more than 2 ECM. Interestingly, both teams had an equal number meaning only 4 ECM in the entire game.

It is not atypical to see 1 or 2 ECM in a game. However, I have to wonder when you are playing to see so many ECM mechs so often in so many games....

8v8 has no weight limits so it is possible to run into 6 D-DC Atlases and 2 3L Ravens. These are "competitive teams" running their MIN/MAX builds. ELO will help with this as well.

As for dumb firing LRMs - I'm tired of arguing about whether or not it is possible or even if it is possible to be successful with the process. Obviously, if you are dumb firing at 500 meters, that would be the first thing you are doing wrong.

LRM dumb firing doesn't work, and you're a fool to think it does.

Why do 8 mans run 5 D-DCs and 3 3Ls? Maybe ECM? Or is it because everyone complained about D-DCs and 3Ls before ECM?

Look you countered yourself, again.

Jeeze look at this guy, he just ignores everything he can't disprove, what a magical land he lives in. I'm thankful that most players are giving feedback unlike this bozo.

Edited by ICEFANG13, 01 January 2013 - 03:03 PM.

[Noth]

Willie Sauerland, on 01 January 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

Interesting, when I dropped in PUGs two nights ago during American primtime (I will discount last night given it was New Year's Eve) I only saw one team with more than 2 ECM. Interestingly, both teams had an equal number meaning only 4 ECM in the entire game.

It is not atypical to see 1 or 2 ECM in a game. However, I have to wonder when you are playing to see so many ECM mechs so often in so many games....

8v8 has no weight limits so it is possible to run into 6 D-DC Atlases and 2 3L Ravens. These are "competitive teams" running their MIN/MAX builds. ELO will help with this as well.

As for dumb firing LRMs - I'm tired of arguing about whether or not it is possible or even if it is possible to be successful with the process. Obviously, if you are dumb firing at 500 meters, that would be the first thing you are doing wrong.

I play at various times throughout the day and night. It is not uncommon for me to see four ECM on one team and none on the other. I've had serveral games recently where one team had 6+ ECM and the other had none. And depending on which side had more ECM you could tell who would most likely win in 90% of those matches. That is simply too powerful. You miss even more at greater than 500 meters. under 500 meters is you just being a target. Since LRMs spread damage so much, the more precise direct fire can and will usually do more meaningful damage to you. I've walked straight through LRM boats fire LRMs at 400 meters and lower and easily dispatched them with my armor barely dropping into orange. LRMs are absolute crap as direct fire.

Edited by Noth, 01 January 2013 - 03:04 PM.

[Willie Sauerland]

Noth, on 01 January 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

Sigh, again, look at the most successful team games, heck just look at the largest in the world currently. Pugs don't have to join a voip, or group, the characters are actively being balanced for both pug and team play. A game being designed for a team effort does not mean it forces you to group. The current gaming market, most players will not join a group and play as a pug, they don't want to go through having to join a server outside of the game just to enjoy it. It is a sure way to cut off the largest demographic in the market.

Please do not tell me WoT is balanced as I will direct you toward the notion of gold ammo. At least MW:O isn't pay to win like WoT.

And it might be true that many people will not join the outside servers. Of course, functional C3 will go a long way toward fixing this issue you have. If people don't want to use it, then PGIGP cannot help them as they will get ROFLstomped. This is not a single player game. This is a team based game. If this causes the game to fail, then so be it, but I don't believe it will.

My opinion. Information is strength and communication vital for this game. People who want to lone-wolf it should have a significantly difficult time and I'm ok with that.

[ICEFANG13]

StalaggtlKE had great advice Noth, this joker has no arguments, we should just let him live in his magical world of perfection. He'll ignore anything you say and just spout out nonsense.

[Noth]

Willie Sauerland, on 01 January 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

Please do not tell me WoT is balanced as I will direct you toward the notion of gold ammo. At least MW:O isn't pay to win like WoT.

And it might be true that many people will not join the outside servers. Of course, functional C3 will go a long way toward fixing this issue you have. If people don't want to use it, then PGIGP cannot help them as they will get ROFLstomped. This is not a single player game. This is a team based game. If this causes the game to fail, then so be it, but I don't believe it will.

My opinion. Information is strength and communication vital for this game. People who want to lone-wolf it should have a significantly difficult time and I'm ok with that.

WoT no longer has gold ammo, you can buy it with normal credits. Again actually knowing what you are talking about would help your argument here. And yes, WoT is pretty well balanced for it's tiered system. It's not perfect, no game has perfect balance, but it tends to fix things that become mandatory or so powerful they can sway the battle themselves, which ECM currently can.

And again, successful team based games do not tell puggers tough for not joining a group or using voip. It's a very poor idea as they are the biggest user base for the game. I'd rather see a large population as the bigger the population, the more the people that will use those tools and the more people that will join groups.

[Willie Sauerland]

Noth, on 01 January 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

I play at various times throughout the day and night. It is not uncommon for me to see four ECM on one team and none on the other. I've had serveral games recently where one team had 6+ ECM and the other had none. And depending on which side had more ECM you could tell who would most likely win in 90% of those matches. That is simply too powerful. You miss even more at greater than 500 meters. under 500 meters is you just being a target. Since LRMs spread damage so much, the more precise direct fire can and will usually do more meaningful damage to you. I've walked straight through LRM boats fire LRMs at 400 meters and lower and easily dispatched them with my armor barely dropping into orange. LRMs are absolute crap as direct fire.

LRMs are a support weapon and were never intended to be a primary destruction delivery system. They are meant to soften the enemy not destroy them (though it can and should be able to do that if the enemy is dumb enough). An LRM boat should be moving with the group and not sitting back 1000 meters waiting for some guy to light up a target for them. The standard thinking for LRM boats is flawed and leaves your Lance (team) severely weakened. This means you need to be constantly moving. As such, direct fire, when done correctly is possible and can be done successfully no matter what the doubting few think.

However, this is significantly off topic since the question is about ECM driving somebody to another game. I would at least like to compliment you on your ability to argue a point. You have not used the ad hominem or strawman arguments others have and I feel I can at least carry on an intelligent conversation with you. We may not agree, but I respect your opinions and views.

[Willie Sauerland]

Noth, on 01 January 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

WoT no longer has gold ammo, you can buy it with normal credits. Again actually knowing what you are talking about would help your argument here. And yes, WoT is pretty well balanced for it's tiered system. It's not perfect, no game has perfect balance, but it tends to fix things that become mandatory or so powerful they can sway the battle themselves, which ECM currently can.

And again, successful team based games do not tell puggers tough for not joining a group or using voip. It's a very poor idea as they are the biggest user base for the game. I'd rather see a large population as the bigger the population, the more the people that will use those tools and the more people that will join groups.

I quit playing WoT several months ago because I got tired of the pay to win mentality. As such, I did not know they had made the move away from gold ammo. Good for them. It was a stupid idea.

This is not to say I don't believe ECM should not be tweaked, but it is a part of the BattleTech universe and as such should be here.

If more people were using C3 (or if it were functionally stable which is an issue you have raised and might be viable) then it will automatically create a channel for the current team in the game. This will be beneficial for any team as it allows them to organize instead of using the horrible chat system.

No, I can't force people to use a headset and microphone, but the tool is available. If they build this correctly (and there is a long way to go for that) then people will know about the C3 voip system - hopefully in a future tutorial for new users. The new user experience is really horrible and needs to be fixed. I think if you fix that, a lot of these types of issues will go away.

Edit: Fat finger syndrome - "play to win" should have been "pay to win".

Edited by Willie Sauerland, 01 January 2013 - 03:22 PM.

[USMC Iceman]

I Feel ECM put a Minor IQ test on the game and Now we can see how can pass the test.

[DocBach]

Willie Sauerland, on 01 January 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

This is not to say I don't believe ECM should not be tweaked, but it is a part of the BattleTech universe and as such should be here.

Yes, ECM is a part of BattleTech. However, not how it is implemented in this game.

[Willie Sauerland]

DocBach, on 01 January 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

Yes, ECM is a part of BattleTech. However, not how it is implemented in this game.

Neither are streaks. Streaks are supposed to lock onto their target and fire only when that lock is achieved. They are guaranteed to hit. However, they should not be permanently locked meaning they should lock, fire, and then a lock should need to be reacquired.. Remove the way streaks work in game and the main reason for implementing ECM as it has been done in this game so far will no longer be necessary.

ECM was put in to basically balance a single chassis boating streaks and I have stated before this was a very wrong reason to implement it. There are so many mechanics which are broken in this game, PGIGP has had a hard time fixing them. I do hope they get some of these issues fixed as well.

However, I still do not think ECM is overpowered as it can be effectively countered and it is possible to win against teams using it.

[StalaggtIKE]

USMC Iceman, on 01 January 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

I Feel ECM put a Minor IQ test on the game and Now we can see how can pass the test.

Get your thoughts together next time.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 01 January 2013 - 03:39 PM.

[USMC Iceman]

I think they need to stop tweaking ECM