1017 replies to this topic

[WhisperingShadow]

ECM should be purchasable on ALL mechs, that way you can turn it to Counter ECM and would level the playing field

[Pan Damonium]

Codejack, on 02 January 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

This leads to the second problem, which is that it further benefits premade teams (who, frankly, already have enough of an advantage) by allowing them to rely on weapons that they know they can deny to the enemy. This drives away casual players and people not otherwise familiar with the franchise.

I agree that pre-made teams have a clear advantage over the average PuG. I pug, thats all I've done so far. I get killed a lot. I am a casual player as well...if I wasn't I would be finding a good group to play with. To balance things even a little as far as this is concerened, they need to enable voice for these pick up groups. This alone would go a long way towards giving pugs a fighting chance. Still, I would never argue that others should be denied the ability to play as a pre-made team. Its a simulation, and it simulates an environment that emphasis working with a team.

I also think this is a separate argument entirely.

Since it is clear that a pre-made has the advantage before ECM is a factor, it stands that they would have an advantage with ECM. My team lost before, now we REALLY lose?

Edit: Also, to claim that the circumstance drives away casual players is too general of a statement. I, for example, have not been driven away. The best you can do is to speak for yourself in this regard, as you can't point to players who aren't there *anymore* to demonstrate the reality of this. It is possible that some players have been driven away, but then my guess is that would be because of getting pug stomped, not the ECM.

Edited by Pan Damonium, 02 January 2013 - 06:20 PM.

[Calamus]

I like the ECM. It adds another dimension to the gameplay. They're not impossible to kill by any stretch. All you need is a good team with laser mechs to take the ECM's while the LRM boats hammer everyone else. That's called strategy.

What I would like to see is the TAG, NARC, etc. cut through the ECM. Or at least some way to disrupt the ECM. If there is one, I don't know about it. I like having it in the game though.

[Lupus Aurelius]

Where in hell did the original "ECM Feedback" thread go? The one with 102 pages?

I've looked everywhere, can't find it? Did PGI hide it/delete it?

Return that thread immediately, my good sirs!

[HRR Insanity]

ECM currently is too strong.

1. It's most important and heinous effect is to completely blind the opposition to enemy 'Mech positions (radar) while leaving that feature intact for the team employing ECM. Asymmetric discoordination = loss.

2. The ECM/ECCM implemention makes ECM required. Every 'Mech on a side MUST have ECM to have a chance of winning the ECCM battle as it is a 1:1 counter. As soon as the first 'Mech goes down, that team that is down a 'Mech immediately loses the ECM/ECCM race and we're back to #1. Discoordination = loss. Making ECM available on all 'Mechs does not change the fact that it is required on all 'Mechs to avoid the ECCM/ECM arms race. The actual mechanics of ECM/ECCM need to be fixed.

3. ECM+Streaks is currently an 'I win' button for lights. If you have those two items, you win. If you don't, you are immediately destroyed by Streaks = loss. Especially since #3 leads to #2 leads to #1. This further illustrates the fact that Streaks are overpowered weapons in the current milleu of weapons because they do not miss. Therefore, their stated damage (2.5/missile) is directly superior to lasers because they do not have to be held on target. They are directly superior to ACs due to weight and hardpoint restrictions. Streaks need to do 1-1.5 damage if they are going to be guaranteed to hit, otherwise they are a hard counter to light 'Mechs.

4. The ECM 'umbrella' is potentially OK, so long as the other effects are dealt with. This would also allow a team to take a single ECM 'Mech for 'cover' without requiring it on every 'Mech.

How to fix this mess:

ECM should have 3 modes.

• OFF - The ECM is not active.
  
• Counter - ECCM mode should allow an ECM 'Mech to negate the ECM of a targeted 'Mech. Alternatively, you could have ECCM disable ALL ECM in range (both friendly and enemy).
  
• Disrupt - ECM disables a target 'Mech's ability to use equipment and/or lock weapons. While in Disrupt mode, the ECM carrying 'Mech CANNOT LOCK WEAPONS. The 'Mech that is disrupting you shows up with an 'attacking ECM icon' so you know which 'Mech is disrupting you. You do not get to disrupt ALL 'Mechs in an area. You need to pick and choose who is the biggest threat. This makes ECM a challenge to employ as opposed to an 'I win' button.

Alterations:

• Remove the disruption effect of ECM on each players minimap radar at close range. If it is not removed, ECM 'Mechs should ALSO disable their own local minimap radar for all teammates within range (another reason for the 'OFF' button). If a team wants to make everyone fight blind, that's fine, but it should not be an asymmetric (ie: overpowered) piece of equipment.
  
• Make ECM to decrease the range a 'Mech can be targeted by 50% (500m). BAP should continue to increase the range a 'Mech can be targeted at by 25% (625m).
  
• Allow 'Mechs to be locked by missiles at half speed and only when detected (<500m with ECM, <625m if the detecting unit is using BAP). ECM should not make a 'Mech invulnerable to missiles, only resistant.
  
• Reduce Streak damage to 1.5-2/missile and/or make them more susceptible to AMS (1 damage to take out a missile as opposed to 2)

Edited by HRR Insanity, 02 January 2013 - 07:29 PM.

[ICEFANG13]

VKleita, on 02 January 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

When is this going to get fixed?

Spent over 4 minutes in a fight with a raven with ecm who just shut down my lrm boat and sat there constant missles while laughing in general chat.

Sorry having a scout mech that can take apart a mech that is totally dependant on missles is a joke.

When I purchased the Cat mech ECM wasnt in the game, if i had known then what i know now I would not of bothered.


give a method for a Missle boat to be able to lock on.

Like dude, you gotta learn to adapt man! You need to counter ECM by bringing your own, every try an Atlas D-DC? That's where its at.

Abivard, on 02 January 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

all 12 of you is not a majority, your math doesn't add up, and how long will this post last before your mod buddy yanks it?

12 to 3 is a heavy majority. Make a poll, and we can see it first hand.

Hekalite, on 02 January 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

For those who feel that ECM is currently balanced, I'm curious what equipment you would consider running on an ECM capable mech instead of ECM? Is there anything that you could include in a mech design for 1.5 tons and 2 crits which would have a similar effect on your team's effectiveness? Hint: the answer is no. That is the very definition of unbalanced. I think what would be interesting to see is server stats on how many ECM capable mechs are fielded without ECM. I suspect the number is very small.

It's not a question of if you can counter it, or beat ECM heavy teams. That is irrelevant because superior skill and tactics will always be an effective counter to an unbalanced game mechanic.

I really don't care what ECM can and cannot do once they are done tweaking it. I just feel that if you do choose to put in on your mech, you should have to sacrifice a significant amount of weapons, armor, speed or some combination thereof proportional to the benefit you gain for having ECM.

I wouldn't bother, none of the pro-ECM players can name a real disadvantage to it, and when they have a couple that are not really good, and someone says that its not logical or correct, they just shut you out. ECM is good, because they said so, and did you know they are better than us? Because they said so.

Calamus, on 02 January 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

I like the ECM. It adds another dimension to the gameplay. They're not impossible to kill by any stretch. All you need is a good team with laser mechs to take the ECM's while the LRM boats hammer everyone else. That's called strategy.

What I would like to see is the TAG, NARC, etc. cut through the ECM. Or at least some way to disrupt the ECM. If there is one, I don't know about it. I like having it in the game though.

This is not a strategy at all. If it was true, then its a counter game, and that is boring. I have heard people making the switch to direct weapons, because LRMs and SSRMs are so rare to be used now. You also cannot develop a strategy on the assumption the enemy team will have something, unless that thing is so OP, or extremely assessable (it happens to be on 4 of 51 mechs right now, not assessable).

Do you ever say, "the enemy team WILL have A/C-20s in the next game, I have to bring some LRMs to hammer them before they get close". No you have not said that (have you really? That would be nuts, its like you can see the future.)

I'd better bring some lasers to deal with the ECM mech next game. Boating missiles is bad, but boating lasers and ballistics is A-OK?

For the record, I hate LRMs, and I don't use them, I only use SSRMs on light mechs because that's how the light mech game is. ECM doesn't effect me anymore, because I adapted, and sold the worthless mechs I had, and removed the worthless weapons I had.

Excellent design.

Lupus Aurelius, on 02 January 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

Where in hell did the original "ECM Feedback" thread go? The one with 102 pages?

I've looked everywhere, can't find it? Did PGI hide it/delete it?

Return that thread immediately, my good sirs!

It was locked hush hush like.
http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

Edited by ICEFANG13, 02 January 2013 - 07:52 PM.

[Sandslice]

I didn't play in before ECM-tech, but I do have some thoughts on it from both a TT and a balance standpoint.

1. ECM currently has no counter, except itself. I know David Bradley described TAG as the "rock to ECM's scissors" or something like that, but there are three key distinctions:

a ) ECM doesn't burden its carrier or lower DPS or other performance. By taking an energy hardpoint, TAG intrinsically lowers its carrier's potential damage.
b )ECM is passive (requiring no action to use, apart from the mode switch) and has an area of effect. TAG is single-target, and not only active but channelled; you have to maintain a scan on a target to keep it "acquired," something that is rather difficult to do with fast-moving and allegedly lagshielded recons, as well as while moving sideways and swinging your torso around during a fight.
c ) ECM counters TAG at short range.

2. The "Guardian ECM" is stronger than the tabletop Angel ECM currently - even the Angel only shuts down the Streaking portion of the SSRM, causing the SSRM to fire as a standard SRM. MWO's Guardian actually stops the SSRM from firing outright, which seems excessive.

3. Ghost Targets would be amazing. They wouldn't have to create physical images on the enemy cockpit, just HUD-map pings that enemies can see. However, Ghost Target mode would have to be a third toggle, exclusive of Disrupt and Counter effects.

4. One of the ideas that I have for creating a true "hard counter" to ECM would involve the PPC gaining a "Star Wars Ion Cannon" effect with a specific outcome: shutting down passive electronic systems (BAP, ECM, AMS) for a few seconds. If that seems strong, an "Ionic Shielding" module that reduces the effect duration would be a nice addition...

5. ...as would some inclement weather like a map with intermittent thunderstorms that serve the same effect in random parts of the battlefield.

Edited by Sandslice, 02 January 2013 - 07:56 PM.

[Marcus Tanner]

Abivard, on 02 January 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

oh, got another 5 kills in my Lrm boat against ecm eqqiped team, your right ecm nerfed lrms, I should get all 8,

I do that sometimes, usually when their ECM mech has run off to not help their team and gets itself killed.

Either that, or when I've brought a good ECM-equipped spotter (or a very good non-ECM spotter) on a team with me.

Pan Damonium, on 02 January 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

...this is EXACTLY what it is a question of. When it is simply NOT difficult to work around, it ceases to be unbalanced.

If I may: It's not always easy to work around.

Sometimes you're playing an 8v8game where they all have ECM, in which case there are no stragglers and you need lots of ECM spotters running counter.

Other times you're PUGing and your team has no good spotters, and nobody willing/able to run counter for you.

Sometimes their ECM-mech runs right up to your LRM boat, in which case you can't fire on anyone at all until it goes away or dies.

There are times when it's easy to work around, such as when you have a good spotter. Then LRMs are just as problematically effective as they were pre-patch. That's bad, and ECM is bad.

Codejack, on 02 January 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

Worse yet, it undermines faith in either the ability or willingness of PGI to properly balance the game, but if they're not going to, I want somebody else to step up and do so and I will save my money until that happens.

Did that with me. They look like rookies more interested in wearing boxer-briefs on their heads than designing a fun game.

Kousagi, on 02 January 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Thing is, the ECM itself is not all that powerful. Where people confuse things is, that the ECM supports/denys the powerful weapons.

Even if there were no LRMs or Streaks in the game, I would still bring ECM on every mech I could. It's only 1.5 tons. The stealth effects and ability to disrupt enemy coordination are well worth that 1.5 tons to me.

Pan Damonium, on 02 January 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

When an individual does not need ECM on an ECM mech, said individual probably plays a Catapult! Or a Stalker! Or a Hunchback! That is what you replace your ECM with, another mech. A lot of players are still playing non-ECM mechs. The very definition of unbalanced? That would be when every player, or even half of all players, play ECM mechs. This doesn't happen because ECM gets redundant after you have a couple mechs with it. Frivolous argument.

Easily observed evidence that the majority of players don't feel ECM to be the end-all-be-all is that people, more often than not, will drop in non-ECM mechs. I have yet to be in a single match with more than 3 ECM equipped mechs.

Most people didn't play streakcats, but those were still a problem.

Most people didn't play gausscats, but those were still a problem.

You should note that not only have I played a dozen or so PUG matches with 4 or more ECM mechs on a team, but I understand that in the more competitive 8v8 environment ECM-majority teams are the norm, with all-ECM teams being common.

Lupus Aurelius, on 02 January 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

Where in hell did the original "ECM Feedback" thread go? The one with 102 pages?

It was in the last patch feedback section.

This is a new patch, with a new patch feedback section. New threads.

No shenanigans were committed on the part of PGI.

[Abivard]

ECM-OFF mode...
hey I like that idea, than I can actually sneak up on an alert mech with out them getting one of those messages that an ecm mech is nearby.

Lets point that out again, ECM actually broadcasts your nearby presence to anyone with the wit to notice.

Very few if any others of the EW suite is available in beta yet so really the whole 'balance' issue is moot.

[Kousagi]

Marcus Tanner, on 02 January 2013 - 07:56 PM, said:

Even if there were no LRMs or Streaks in the game, I would still bring ECM on every mech I could. It's only 1.5 tons. The stealth effects and ability to disrupt enemy coordination are well worth that 1.5 tons to me.

Its still a nice thing to have, but would not be a requirement for a team to have. As coordination would be the counter to it, which is weight free. I mean sensors before ECM were crazy too, As i had a streak cat that could put a box on ya at 1.2k out. No need for scouts then! I just jump jet up, and was a mobile radar station, nothing could hide from me. Which that kinda killed tactics, or even flanking cause we knew it was coming.

[PiemasterXL]

[Abivard]

The question was asked,;

If there were no streaks or LRM weapons, would you equip ECM?

NO I would not, a Heat sink, weapon, ammo, armor, bigger engine all would rate higher.

I would also never buy or equip, Bap,tag, artemis, case, 360 module, sensor module, and AMS.

Would any of you do other than me?

OH yes, then once again with no ecm, no streaks and no LRM's the Founders jenner would once again rule the pugs, until net code is fixed of course.

[ICEFANG13]

I would still equip it, the benefits to radar are still amazing, better than BAP, and people used BAP already.

[Araara]

Kousagi, on 02 January 2013 - 08:03 PM, said:

Its still a nice thing to have, but would not be a requirement for a team to have. As coordination would be the counter to it, which is weight free. I mean sensors before ECM were crazy too, As i had a streak cat that could put a box on ya at 1.2k out. No need for scouts then! I just jump jet up, and was a mobile radar station, nothing could hide from me. Which that kinda killed tactics, or even flanking cause we knew it was coming.

Sensors had range on it pre-ecm. Scouts were useful and necessary in 8v8 to preemptively strategize on maneuvers by visually scouting enemy mechs from afar. Yes, you could jump jet and spot anyone that wasnt under any cover and in plain open field. But that means those people were actually a brawling group/main group. Actual flankers would be under cover and would, more or less, succeed in flanking the LRM or long range support mechs.

If not, we also had misdirection as some mechs were focused on multiple red triangles in front of them and had to prioritize heavier loadouts in brawls, leaving the generally lighters mechs free reign on flanking. Unless being confronted by escort mechs which protected the support mechs or the heavier less maneuverable mechs.


So no, scouts were and still is a very very important part of battles. Such that usually in 8v8 organized warfare in league matches, it was bait, hit and run, poking on the light scout mechs until 1 side had 1-2 scout mechs down. When that happened, it went into brawling phase with 1 team usually outnumbering the other one and giving them the advantage.



edit : yes I would equip the ECM in a game with no ssrms or LRMs. The advantage for a fast light mech on it is tremendous. Flanking would be incredibly easy as well as escaping from pursuers. Heck, just think of the ECM light mech wolf pack right now. Even without ssrms, theyd still cause quite a mess in the enemy team's formation lol!

It would also give long range snipers a good second or two preemptive to peek out of a hill, snipe a shot or two and pop their head back down, even with thermal sight. There's a LOT of tactical uses to it.

Edited by Araara, 02 January 2013 - 08:21 PM.

[Sandslice]

Abivard, on 02 January 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

The question was asked,;

If there were no streaks or LRM weapons, would you equip ECM?

NO I would not, a Heat sink, weapon, ammo, armor, bigger engine all would rate higher.

I would also never buy or equip, Bap,tag, artemis, case, 360 module, sensor module, and AMS.

Would any of you do other than me?

Let's see. ECM can still mask detection, stop spotters from putting you on their friends' radar, hide your paperdoll, and screw with IFF at short range. Thus, ECM would still have value, even if diminished.

BAP would still be valuable.
TAG would have limited value, just as now.
Artemis would still be useful for regular SRMs, were there no LRM or SSRM.
CASE would still be useful on SRM ammo, ballistic ammo, and goose rifles.
The 360 module shouldn't be a module, it's supposed to be a standard element of any 'Mech's DI system.
Sensor module would be as valuable as BAP.
AMS really doesn't stop regular SRMs well, especially not at knife range: so let's call it useless then.

[StalaggtIKE]

WhisperingShadow, on 02 January 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

ECM should be purchasable on ALL mechs, that way you can turn it to Counter ECM and would level the playing field

I'd love to see that and I am not even being facetious.

[ICEFANG13]

I really think that every mech would use it, it seems like exactly what would happen.

[Marcus Tanner]

Kousagi, on 02 January 2013 - 08:03 PM, said:

Its still a nice thing to have, but would not be a requirement for a team to have. As coordination would be the counter to it, which is weight free. I mean sensors before ECM were crazy too, As i had a streak cat that could put a box on ya at 1.2k out. No need for scouts then! I just jump jet up, and was a mobile radar station, nothing could hide from me. Which that kinda killed tactics, or even flanking cause we knew it was coming.

You can still do that sort of thing on thermal. Or at least you would be able to, if jump jets hadn't taken a big kick to the jibblies.

With the new jump jet height, is that pop-up recon still problematically good against enemies that don't have any/enough ECM?

[Kousagi]

Araara, on 02 January 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:

Sensors had range on it pre-ecm. Scouts were useful and necessary in 8v8 to preemptively strategize on maneuvers by visually scouting enemy mechs from afar. Yes, you could jump jet and spot anyone that wasnt under any cover and in plain open field. But that means those people were actually a brawling group/main group. Actual flankers would be under cover and would, more or less, succeed in flanking the LRM or long range support mechs.

This is where you miss understand a bit. Most people on the team could poke out to about 900-1000k-ish with the sensor mod, then with BAP made it to 1.2k, Scouts were important, but when I could see you from my spawn, walking out of your spawn, theres not much hiding behind cover to be had. All it took was for you to get in LOS for .1 sec's for me to know where you are. Most maps also only have so many ways to go, so even if you did some how manage to keep cover for your whole movement in to a flank, if we spot only 4 mechs going left, well we got center covered too, that means the other 4 are going right. Though ANY mech could fill that scout role due to the range of sensors.

Now With ECM, you need Light mechs to scout cause its harder to spot people. Though ya can still thermal view them coming out of spawn on a lot of maps, so its a slightly moot point. Though ya still need fast scouts at times, cause just not any mech can run around looking for the other team. Ya need something that can stay hidden and run like hell when/If they get noticed.

Plus only reason light mech wolfpack is deadly right now is cause lag shield. They don't need streaks for it, but streaks just mean they can destroy other lights.

[Ezazel]

I think current ecm is better that lrm and ssrm domination but I think better way to counter locked missiles would be to give AMS a substantial boost.