1017 replies to this topic

[StalaggtIKE]

Tolkien, on 08 January 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

Thanks Skyscream.

I won't say it's dead, but I can say it is on life support... The only argument against the data that I view as having much merit at this point is that me carrying an ECM with my fearsome 50.6% win/loss ratio is skewing the data. That 4.2x win ratio just looks way too high to me, even as someone who thinks ECM is too beneficial for 1.5 tons, I have trouble accepting it at face value and I was there collecting the data.

Still, I would prefer to collect using a true observer mode so I could just count ECMs and see what happens, as some critics will never be satisfied by anything else. Granted there are some who would debate any result since they don't like to hear that ECM is at least highly correlated with skewed match outcomes.

I'm going to give data collection a rest for a little bit and hope that I can get my hands on some raw data - hopefully Garth can round some up for me so I can find out if the data is fully representative.

Great effort. Were you able to test ECM ability for shutdown mechs?

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 08 January 2013 - 11:59 AM.

[Jakob Knight]

If firefighters had the same attitude towards their job that the Devs have towards TAG and ECM, they'd be fighting fires by spraying them with gasoline.

A counter that is nullified by what it is supposed to counter is no counter.

And ECM, besides locking out entire weapon systems, combines the functions of several other, more advanced systems, into itself while avoiding the disadvantages those systems required.

As ECM stands now, it has far too much ability, costs next to nothing to use, locks out two weapons systems from game use, removes a role (indirect fire support) from the game, and has no effective counter except itself.

I have proposed that BAP be allowed to negate the ECM effect of non-detection beyond 200m, that TAG be unaffected by ECM at any range, or that ECM be limited entirely to its effective range only. Any of these would, I believe, put ECM enough where it should be as to allow the game to balance it out by player action. However, all we have seen is an extention of TAG's effective range, which does nothing to change the facts that TAG beyond close range cannot hit reliably enough for use and that ECM still jams it within the ranges that it could be reliably used. Add to that that TAG is entirely LOS, single-target while ECM is non-LOS, Area of Effect, and it is clear TAG in its current form cannot be a counter to ECM, whatever range it might have.

[Tolkien]

StalaggtIKE, on 08 January 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

Great effort. Were you able to test ECM ability for shutdown mechs?

Ahh sorry, forgot to mention that I tested it yesterday with a friend on skype. When I shut down there was about an 0.5 second delay then the little eye disappeared from all nearby mechs, so it looks as though ECM cover does disappear when you shut down. I'm also pretty sure it does when you overheat too.

[StalaggtIKE]

Tolkien, on 08 January 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

Ahh sorry, forgot to mention that I tested it yesterday with a friend on skype. When I shut down there was about an 0.5 second delay then the little eye disappeared from all nearby mechs, so it looks as though ECM cover does disappear when you shut down. I'm also pretty sure it does when you overheat too.

That's good to hear that it has been fixed. Thanks!

For the Ask a Dev, I believe you should also post a link to your gathered tests.
Here's hoping it gets addressed this time around. *cheers*

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 08 January 2013 - 12:18 PM.

[Skyscream Sapphire]

Skyscream Sapphire, on 07 January 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

...my protest will likely take this form. I'm just going to run the Craven and then let everyone know in chat that my mech is "working as intended" according to the devs, My money would be that on Tuesday we get some comment from the devs like "well, we thought about changing ECM but our analytics show that only xx% of people are using it, which we don't think is too high." I will aim to fix that.

Patch notes are up for today:
http://mwomercs.com/game/patch-notes

No mention of any adjustments to ECM (lol @ adding c-bill bonuses for using NARC...a mechanic completely negated by ECM). Cheese mode engaged.

[Shield]

HiplyRustic, on 08 January 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

Hey, here's a thought:

Leave ECM exactly as it exists today except:

-Limit it to lights, and only lights
-Make it cover only other mechs and not the ECM mech. Make it so that ECM mechs can not be shielded by other ECM mechs.

Think about it.

I thought about it... and that's a terrible idea.. How would that balance what the system does in accordance to weight/crit slots? Also, that doesn't address anything about what a light mech running ECM could do to the enemy (ie.. prevent lock ons for SSRM or LRMs) so a light mech would still be able to shutdown all lock-on weapons within its radius and disrupt the electronics of enemy mechs. That's freaking OP no matter how you look at it. Only cloaking friendlies would be a slight nerf to it, but it wouldn't do anything to FIX the root of the problem. The problem with ECM is the entire mechanics of it. ie.. cloaking to 200m but disrupting electronics at 180m (20m of room to use lock-on weapons?!?! WTF?), electronic disruption, total prevention of lock-ons, as well as the disruption of TAG (Which is a freaking laser) within the 180 meters.. All this for 1.5 tons and 2 crits? wtf man... That's the same as a machine gun and a ton of ammo.

There is just no balance there and hurts the game play seriously. For 3x 8-mans in a row we ran into groups of 4x Raven-3L and 4x Atlas D-DCs.. We got stomped. We brought 4 ECM mechs, but their ravens alone overpowered us, killed our LRMs and streaks, and then us. We lost 1/3 of our firepower out of the gate because of ECM. Having to stack ECM just to win? I am refusing to play 8 mans at this point specifically because it just becomes a game of who can stack the most ECM?

[Malzel]

ECM is not that broken. It suffers from having few counters, (Getting in close to ECCM it can be painful, and NARC is useless. TAG is good, but it has a long lag time before you can actually target a TAGged mech.) but the real issue is, as folks have said, the inability to kill the light mechs that carry it. The Atlas with it isn't that bad, it's still a huge target that can be brought down with focused fire and smart tactics, it's just the speedy little lights that no one can catch that are really a balance issue.

Once knockdowns return, netcode issues are fixed, and/or light mech hitboxes are enlarged to compensate, a lot of the issues with ECM will evaporate. ECM isn't a gamebreaker, it just magnifies other issues that the game is currently having.

[Tolkien]

Malzel, on 08 January 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

...
Once knockdowns return, netcode issues are fixed, and/or light mech hitboxes are enlarged to compensate, a lot of the issues with ECM will evaporate. ECM isn't a gamebreaker, it just magnifies other issues that the game is currently having.

I agree that those are contributing factors, and that life will be better for all of us once they are sorted out. Hitboxes are an issue that I think should be getting more attention but is wildly overshadowed by other problems at the moment. For example consider the cicada and the hunchback. The hunchback weighs 25% more than the cicada. The silhouette/surface area of the hunchback is how much bigger? The right torso (where the good guns are) is as big as the cicada on its own, making it really easy to knock out a hunchback's good guns.

Anyway, even when I imagine a future version of the game with fixed netcode and collisions to keep the rugrats in line, I still have a lot of trouble accepting the balance of ECM since it does all of the following:


i) Counters Artemis
ii) Counters BAP outright - a system which weighs exactly the same amount
iii) Counters TAG bonuses and the whole system inside of 180m
iv) Counters NARC - a system which weighs more and requires real skill and teamwork to use
v) Counters other ECMs
vi) Destroys LRM locks (absent holding a TAG laser on the target)
vii) Destroys SSRM locks (absent holding a TAG laser on the target)
viii) Ruins information sharing via minimap
ix) Scrambles HUD display of enemies
x) is a better AMS than AMS itself
xi) Requires no exploding ammo
xii) Generates no heat
xiii) Costs less than a much less useful module by a factor of 15
xiv) Doesn't use up a weapon hardpoint like it's supposed counter TAG does

Honestly in terms of game balance even if it ONLY countered BAPs as it does now it might be considered strong since 1 ECM on the enemy team can hide the whole thing from multiple BAPs if they stay close. This is in contrast to tabletop where it only affects BAP when the BAP is inside the 180m bubble with the ECM.

Edited by Tolkien, 08 January 2013 - 02:33 PM.

[warp103]

Repost from today from Garth and Me

Ok to all about ECM. After a long conversation with Garth. I see the problem as to why there is no comment on ECM.

The dev do not see the issue. Now I will not go in to all the detail about his comments. But they are pointing to how they fair in the twitch games. They do not use ECM and win most of the time.. And they are only seeing in stats 8v8 game 4 ecm's max. So the only thing that I can say is Video video video. Get TS because is what they us in the twitch games. I do not agree with him but I have respect that I got info.

I know that you want me to post the Answer that I got. Sorry I can not If he wishes he can tell me I can post then I will.

OH and Tolken, I did post your stats and finding you have. As well as the stat and videos I have of my own. More Pointing to their on play.

So again the all need to post how bad it is so they will have a visual. Video if possible so it goes around the web. As to the Boycott. I was going to be part of it since there was no Answers. Well i got Answers I do not like them but I did get them.

Edited by warp103, 08 January 2013 - 05:13 PM.

[grayson marik]

Belisarius1, on 07 January 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

I doubt that this will ever be read, but I thought I would put my 2c in anyway. ECM isn't a huge problem in a vacuum. It's poorly designed in that it has no counters other than itself, but there are minor modifications which would fix that. The real problem is ECM when combined with immortal, lagging lights. Lights are able to move freely into jamming range and remain there for hilariously long periods of time because of their lag armour, while crippling OpFor's coordination and communication. Adding insult to injury, ECM is specifically designed to counter the one weapon type which is capable of dealing consistent damage through PGI's godawful netcode. This creates a dynamic where the team has to choose between wasting huge amounts of time chasing lagslut midgets while being hammered by the main body, or ignoring the lights and engaging blind and dumb. Both of those are terrible options. If lights actually died the way they should, ECM would be a much smaller issue. As it is, it's a perfect storm of utter frustration, particularly for players with higher ping.

---

THIS

[Perihelion Jack]

I have been following this thread for awhile, and I thought I would weigh in. In the interest of full disclosure; One of my 'mechs is a RVN-3L, it has an ECM, and I really enjoy piloting it.

I feel that the ECM is good where it is. <insert digital freak-out> I have played around 2500 matches in total, and I think the availability of it is actually good for the game. "Cloaking" is an important ability to have access to, as it increases the need to actually pay attention to the game, rather than just using radar to lock on and spamming missles until they are dead. We have played that game. It sucked. Missilewarrior Online was not fun, so we complained. Loudly. The Devs responded by adding ECM to the game, and now we complain about that. The current iteration of the ECM just seems too strong because there is not a widely available solution for it and it is not an option for most of the 'mechs in the game.

Enter the BEAGLE. I am convinced that the most elegant solution would be to increase the power of the BAP to match/counter the current abilities of ECM. It seems as if the BAP is supposed to augment the same type of functions that the ECM reduces. (Radar, Locks, etc.) The BAP weighs the same, takes the same number of critical slots, and is available to EVERY 'mech variant. By doing this, you could easily make a solution available to everyone. Then, if a player chooses not to use a BAP/ECM, they deserve to not see anything on radar.

I am sure I am not the first one to come up with this solution, but I feel it is the best way to resolve this issue for the Problem of the Month club.

To the Devs - Keep up the good work. I hope you folks don't get caught up in the b itchfests that occur in these threads, and stayed motivated to make the game we all hope MW:O will become.

This post achieved with CryBaby 3.

[Noth]

Aphelion Dax, on 09 January 2013 - 03:35 AM, said:

I have been following this thread for awhile, and I thought I would weigh in. In the interest of full disclosure; One of my 'mechs is a RVN-3L, it has an ECM, and I really enjoy piloting it.

I feel that the ECM is good where it is. <insert digital freak-out> I have played around 2500 matches in total, and I think the availability of it is actually good for the game. "Cloaking" is an important ability to have access to, as it increases the need to actually pay attention to the game, rather than just using radar to lock on and spamming missles until they are dead. We have played that game. It sucked. Missilewarrior Online was not fun, so we complained. Loudly. The Devs responded by adding ECM to the game, and now we complain about that. The current iteration of the ECM just seems too strong because there is not a widely available solution for it and it is not an option for most of the 'mechs in the game.

Enter the BEAGLE. I am convinced that the most elegant solution would be to increase the power of the BAP to match/counter the current abilities of ECM. It seems as if the BAP is supposed to augment the same type of functions that the ECM reduces. (Radar, Locks, etc.) The BAP weighs the same, takes the same number of critical slots, and is available to EVERY 'mech variant. By doing this, you could easily make a solution available to everyone. Then, if a player chooses not to use a BAP/ECM, they deserve to not see anything on radar.

I am sure I am not the first one to come up with this solution, but I feel it is the best way to resolve this issue for the Problem of the Month club.

To the Devs - Keep up the good work. I hope you folks don't get caught up in the b itchfests that occur in these threads, and stayed motivated to make the game we all hope MW:O will become.

This post achieved with CryBaby 3.

SO your solution is to add another must have item in order to counter the other must have item... that just proves that the ECM is too powerful. The use of hard counters is a dangerous thing and leads to things either being too strong or utterly useless in most cases.

[Tolkien]

Aphelion and Noth, you two both bring up good points, but I tend to agree with Noth on the hard counters. At least when it comes to primary systems.

ECM does an awfully big list of things for 1.5 tons, thus the underlying complaint about balance. I can't recall encountering anyone who has stated they would rather use the 1.5 tons and 2 slots for other things - this indicates a balance problem when an item is almost universally considered the best use of tonnage. Frankly if I could put ECM on all of my mechs, I would.

What you proposed about using BAP as a hard counter to ECM would at least give the damned thing a counter that isn't just another ECM, but overall I am not a big fan of hard counters - like what ECM does to missile locks, or the proposed BAP hard countering ECM. This is because a hard counter doesn't fix an "OP" system, it converts it into a binary of available or not available. As an example streaks are currently available to the team that has local ECM superiority but unavailable to the team that doesn't, leading to the current motivation to have N+1 ECMs around to deal with the chance that the enemy might bring N.

Since streaks and LRMs are the two guided weapons that can counter lag shielded lights, we now have the absurd situation where people are running com2D's and raven3Ls with ECM and streaks so they can hunt other lights while also being immune from streak retaliation and LRMs. TAG is itself affected by lag shields and is itself hard countered if the ECM mech is within 180m of you. Also if BAP hard countered ECM missile boats would be back overnight as catapults can easily drop a heatsink and a little armor to get right back to where we were before.


If they made ECM a soft counter rather than insisting that we all play seven dimensional rock paper scissors, lights would have to hit and run. Right now lights can just circle strafe in plain sight which is the plain silly result of hard counters.

TLDR hard counters suck nuts

Edited by Tolkien, 09 January 2013 - 04:44 AM.

[Perihelion Jack]

t

Noth, on 09 January 2013 - 03:57 AM, said:

SO your solution is to add another must have item in order to counter the other must have item... that just proves that the ECM is too powerful. The use of hard counters is a dangerous thing and leads to things either being too strong or utterly useless in most cases.

The difference being that the ECM is a tool for negating radar. The BAP is a tool for enhancing Radar. In a vaccuum; they do very different things, as they should. What I am advocating is not necessarily another "Hard Counter", but some tool that every Battlemech could use to negate some (if not all) of the ECM's effects.

This doesn't mean that either one is a "must have" item. Engines are a "must have" item. With role-warfare being such a crucial element of this game, having something to do on the battlefield other than being target practice for the enemy team seems important, especially for light 'mechs. Many players currently play without using the ECM, even in variants that would allow one. The option to pack equipment that futzes with the enemy's radar capability is restricted to certain 'mechs precisely so that not everyone can field one. The BAP being universally available negates the advantage gained by the handful of 'mechs that can use an ECM.

Is a BAP overpowered? It seems like the ability to increase sensor range AND reduce lock times generates a significant advantage. No it isnt. People don't complain when they recieve an edge; they only do so when they feel disadvantaged. We all want balance, but you cant balance only one thing. Playground physics taught us all that lesson; you can't use the seesaw by yourself. Instead of reducing the ECM to "utterly useless in most cases". Why not make the BAP (which is already in the game)stronger to achieve parity?

[Noth]

Aphelion Dax, on 09 January 2013 - 05:48 AM, said:

t

The difference being that the ECM is a tool for negating radar. The BAP is a tool for enhancing Radar. In a vaccuum; they do very different things, as they should. What I am advocating is not necessarily another "Hard Counter", but some tool that every Battlemech could use to negate some (if not all) of the ECM's effects.

This doesn't mean that either one is a "must have" item. Engines are a "must have" item. With role-warfare being such a crucial element of this game, having something to do on the battlefield other than being target practice for the enemy team seems important, especially for light 'mechs. Many players currently play without using the ECM, even in variants that would allow one. The option to pack equipment that futzes with the enemy's radar capability is restricted to certain 'mechs precisely so that not everyone can field one. The BAP being universally available negates the advantage gained by the handful of 'mechs that can use an ECM.

Is a BAP overpowered? It seems like the ability to increase sensor range AND reduce lock times generates a significant advantage. No it isnt. People don't complain when they recieve an edge; they only do so when they feel disadvantaged. We all want balance, but you cant balance only one thing. Playground physics taught us all that lesson; you can't use the seesaw by yourself. Instead of reducing the ECM to "utterly useless in most cases". Why not make the BAP (which is already in the game)stronger to achieve parity?

Yes it becomes must have because ECM is pretty much a must have there is no single piece of equipment you would take over ECM if you could take ECM. All making the BAP counter ECM would do is hide the problem, not fix it. Oh and BAP isn't OP despite sensor range and lock time bonuses because that is not hear as powerful as completely blocking locks and reducing the sensor range to 200. To counter the BAP I can do basic things I would normally do, using cover,staying at range, taking longer routes to flank. Even if I regularly used ECM mechs I'd still complain about the the advantage because it is too much of an advantage for the cost ( equivalent of a small laser and a heatsink). It makes flanking and hiding far far too easy and can even decide the outcomes of games. There is a reason why the 8V8 have become essentially ECM wars, it is just that powerful. All adding BAP would do is make it so BAP is brought on every mech. It is a horrible way to balance.

Edited by Noth, 09 January 2013 - 06:14 AM.

[HiplyRustic]

Shield, on 08 January 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

I thought about it... and that's a terrible idea.. How would that balance what the system does in accordance to weight/crit slots? Also, that doesn't address anything about what a light mech running ECM could do to the enemy (ie.. prevent lock ons for SSRM or LRMs) so a light mech would still be able to shutdown all lock-on weapons within its radius and disrupt the electronics of enemy mechs. That's freaking OP no matter how you look at it. Only cloaking friendlies would be a slight nerf to it, but it wouldn't do anything to FIX the root of the problem. The problem with ECM is the entire mechanics of it. ie.. cloaking to 200m but disrupting electronics at 180m (20m of room to use lock-on weapons?!?! WTF?), electronic disruption, total prevention of lock-ons, as well as the disruption of TAG (Which is a freaking laser) within the 180 meters.. All this for 1.5 tons and 2 crits? wtf man... That's the same as a machine gun and a ton of ammo.

There is just no balance there and hurts the game play seriously. For 3x 8-mans in a row we ran into groups of 4x Raven-3L and 4x Atlas D-DCs.. We got stomped. We brought 4 ECM mechs, but their ravens alone overpowered us, killed our LRMs and streaks, and then us. We lost 1/3 of our firepower out of the gate because of ECM. Having to stack ECM just to win? I am refusing to play 8 mans at this point specifically because it just becomes a game of who can stack the most ECM?

I get all that, it's wildly OP. I also get that wholesale changes to ECM are not coming any time soon, so proposing that the mechs carrying th ECM become immediately and permanently vulnerable was the best thing I could come up with.

If a mech, by simply carrying ECM, becomes impossible to shield with another mech's ECM and gains no direct benefit from its own...meaning it is now as visible and vulnerable as it was before ECM was introduced...it should end ECM fleets. Shouldn't it? It was what I could come up with, given that there will not be dramatic changes any time soon. You?

Edited by HiplyRustic, 09 January 2013 - 06:33 AM.

[Perihelion Jack]

Friendly ECMs shorting each other out within the 180m umbrella is a solid idea as well. A lot of the problems, such as flocks of ECM ravens, could be addressed in this way. I still feel like instead of nerfing ECM, the BAP should get more powerful as a counter-balance to the ECM.

[Skyscream Sapphire]

Aphelion Dax, on 09 January 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

...

I really don't care what anecdotes or feelings you have to share. Tolkien has already shown with 99.999% certainty (seriously, that's not hyperbole) that ECM is a competitive advantage.

Tolkien, on 07 January 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

To reach a neutral outcome (20.5/20.5, the results would need to be shifted by 4.92 sigmas),
Assuming the distribution is normal, this gives confidence of > 99.999% - aka "better than 5 nines"
In short, the data still supports the statement that the team with more ECMs on it will tend to win.

Meanwhile, no numbers support the opposing viewpoint. The burden of proof is now on that side.

Edited by Skyscream Sapphire, 09 January 2013 - 11:18 AM.

[Malckovich]

Been following the thread. My personal experience is thus. If I drop in with 0 ECM on my team and 2 on the enemy team, that match is almost surely a loss.

Current ECM makes you feel like you need to stick near an ECM mech, or play one yourself. That is not good, it eliminates choice.

However I am not going to beg for a change to ECM until the lagshielding issue is dealt with. It is generating a smokescreen for ECM balance, amplifying the issues.

What I would like to say is that the current version of ECM does too many things for the small package it comes in. The devs will have a hard time branching into a deep electronic warfare system if so much power rests in one small box.

Please devs, at all costs avoid hard counters/ binary systems. Focus on soft counters, things like range fluctuations, lock times, etc.

[Shield]

ICEFANG13, on 07 January 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

I personally will be boycotting the game after Tuesday if something isn't done or said very directly about ECM. I hope that some of you will join me and maybe we can actually do something.

I will probably be right there with you ICEFANG... I'm tired of running ECM mechs in order to have much of a chance. I have gotten to the point that when I get in one of my ECM mechs I just get sick and have to move to something else.... Then I put myself and my team at a disadvantage. Even though even before ECM my mechs were mostly direct fire, I can't seem to land much of a hit of a raven. Last night I landed a hit on the CT of one moving slowly with my AC/20 and it's armor was still perfectly in tact even though my radar registered the hit? (The ECM was being countered, so my radar was functional) It's not just ECM that's the problem here, and THAT is what is causing the issue. ECM is massively OP and when combined with lag-shielded lights that are difficult to hit it, it just destroys the game.

Think about it, when a light is circle-strafing I'm having to aim in front of the mech in order to hit it. If i'm a cataphract-4X with AC-5s in the arms, the weapon will converge at the distance of my reticle and not the mech I'm actually shooting at. So if The mech is 160m away from me and the background is 700m away, that also screws with my ability to deliver damage.

ECM's various OP abilities, Lag shielding, weapon convergence issues when lag shooting, etc... WTF PGI?! You may want hard statistics to see how this is working, but open your eyes and see what's going on for what it is. The game is being wrecked by imbalance and is only a fraction of the fun it was before. I would rather new content be put on hold so that the real problems could be addressed. Fix and reinforce the foundations of the game and then continue to build implement new content.