233 replies to this topic

[Inappropriate1191]

Wired, on 22 December 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

With any possible balancing factor removed from the game? No. You want to see a bad new player experience, try having people in the new player area and those just beyond(IE not able to afford clan tech) having to go against superior technology.

A matchmaker alone would fix this. As a general rule, you won't find new players able to afford the fancy clan tech or clan mechs (A Timber Wolf is 23 mil, while an Atlas is roughly 10 mil, don't get me started on how long the grind for my first Atlas was). At most, they could buy a cheap IS mech, than kit it out with Clan gear, which would then mean another advantage: A much larger population of medium mechs.

[Rackminster]

You fix repair and reload so people can't abuse it, and then introduce Clan Tech as it should be.

Bring back higher mission rewards and turn on R&R again. Include in R&R weapon/component function.

Ballistics only do as much damage as their health allows - an AC/20 at 50% health does just 10 damage. At 20% health, it does 4 damage. As the guns get damaged, the rounds are fired with less efficiency and compression can't be maintained.

Lasers have an inverse heat relationship with their health. A ML at 50% will do 5 damage, but generate 50% more heat per shot since the components are bleeding heat into the Mech with each shot.

Missiles suffer a trio of effects as health degrades. Lock times take longer as the unit is in 'bypass' modes; a few dud missiles are sometimes fired in a cluster and they just fall to the ground in front of the Mech since the firing mechanisms are broken; increased heat generation from damaged shielding.

If every Clan item was twice as expensive as the IS counterpart, repair bills might still be "manageable" for anyone, but you'd really be crawling without Premium. Some things would be crazy expensive to maintain, but that doesn't mean a free player can't do it.

At some point the game should end up twisting their arm hard enough to make a Premium account worthwhile, if nothing else. In WoT, that happened around Tier 5 - when the "grind" to get into the next tier became essentially painful. You'd be "grinding" here too, to afford Clan tech and keep using it.

[Brainwright]

It's pretty simple : Destroyed Clan tech can't be repaired. It's gone, finite, kaput.

So us Mercs grind up cash to do a little dance in a Clan mech, to play our part in the timeline.

Why would a bunch of Mercs fight superior Clan tech? For a chance at salvage, of course.

Naturally, anything they salvage can still be destroyed, and if I know the players of this game, we'll see a lot of people targeting Clan gear just out of spite.

[Inappropriate1191]

Brainwright, on 23 December 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

It's pretty simple : Destroyed Clan tech can't be repaired. It's gone, finite, kaput.

So us Mercs grind up cash to do a little dance in a Clan mech, to play our part in the timeline.

Why would a bunch of Mercs fight superior Clan tech? For a chance at salvage, of course.

Naturally, anything they salvage can still be destroyed, and if I know the players of this game, we'll see a lot of people targeting Clan gear just out of spite.

This is a pretty horrible idea. Making something too awesome to use only makes it to where the game then ends up going stagnant, and then, it'll lose players because it just goes back to status quo.

[Zaptruder]

Clan tech needs to be absolutely dominant as it was in the lore and in the TT rules.

And it needs a similar or same balancing mechanism as the lore and the TT; limit by numbers (2 IS mechs to 1 Clan mech) or by Battle Value.

So 4 classes, 8 slots. Matchmaking system will favour either 2 IS mechs of one class, or 1 clan mech of the same class.

Everything else... especially things related to different repair/rearm rates (beyond the extra cost of clan equipment) will just make the game too messy and create unnatural incentives for exploitative behaviour.

Edited by Zaptruder, 24 December 2012 - 02:37 AM.

[shintakie]

Zaptruder, on 24 December 2012 - 02:35 AM, said:

Clan tech needs to be absolutely dominant as it was in the lore and in the TT rules.

And it needs a similar or same balancing mechanism as the lore and the TT; limit by numbers (2 IS mechs to 1 Clan mech) or by Battle Value.

So 4 classes, 8 slots. Matchmaking system will favour either 2 IS mechs of one class, or 1 clan mech of the same class.

Everything else... especially things related to different repair/rearm rates (beyond the extra cost of clan equipment) will just make the game too messy and create unnatural incentives for exploitative behaviour.

Again, numbers are a terrible plan because it makes Clan mechs completely useless outside of random pug matches. It also doesn't help you balance out clan tech bein used by IS mechs.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 21 December 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

I AM serious, no this isnt a troll

I dont want to see PGI butcher Clan tech

Right beside you Buddah. I want to fight the Clan Invasion. And that wasn't balanced in the leased.

[Baby Bear]

To me it depends. I would give them full Clan Tech but then I'd have a Star or 5 Clan mechs vs 8 IS mechs. They have superior mechs and the IS have superior numbers.

[cinco]

unmodified. can't wait for pve, cause you know it's necessary once the clan is here,

[Zaptruder]

shintakie, on 24 December 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

Again, numbers are a terrible plan because it makes Clan mechs completely useless outside of random pug matches. It also doesn't help you balance out clan tech bein used by IS mechs.

Puretech; no tech mixing.

Also, clan mechs have an overwhelming tech advantage. It's like fielding fully min-maxed IS mechs against trial IS mechs. You absolutely need the numerical advantage to bring balance back to the table.

Eventually down the road, I'd like to see a MWO Battle Value system that accounts for the pilot's skill and what battle mech he's in (i.e. player skill/rank acts as a multiplier for BV), also such a system could adequately account for tech mixing, but for now, let's just keep it simple. Clan mechs are going to be in game by March.

Edited by Zaptruder, 24 December 2012 - 06:40 PM.

[shintakie]

Zaptruder, on 24 December 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

Puretech; no tech mixing.

Also, clan mechs have an overwhelming tech advantage. It's like fielding fully min-maxed IS mechs against trial IS mechs. You absolutely need the numerical advantage to bring balance back to the table.

Eventually down the road, I'd like to see a MWO Battle Value system that accounts for the pilot's skill and what battle mech he's in (i.e. player skill/rank acts as a multiplier for BV), also such a system could adequately account for tech mixing, but for now, let's just keep it simple. Clan mechs are going to be in game by March.

And if you balance it by numbers you completely eliminate clans from a competitive perspective due to the nature of combat in MWO. I do not care how overwhelmin your technological advantage is, you can not win against an equally skilled team when you have 70% of their numbers. It is not possible.

[Zaptruder]

shintakie, on 24 December 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

And if you balance it by numbers you completely eliminate clans from a competitive perspective due to the nature of combat in MWO. I do not care how overwhelmin your technological advantage is, you can not win against an equally skilled team when you have 70% of their numbers. It is not possible.

Rubbish to the highest order. You try a matchup with 8 players in trial mechs and 5 min-maxed (IS tech) mech players and see how it goes.

[MustrumRidcully]

I am not entirely convinced it's doable, and I am even less likely to believe that PGI would be the one to achieve it, but I would prefer Clan tech to be balanced against IS tech. I just hate the entire power creep behind it.

[Flapdrol]

Clan tech is just better in every way, solutions would be asymetric warfare or only allow clan tech in pugs versus an inner sphere group on teamspeak.

[Thirdstar]

MustrumRidcully, on 25 December 2012 - 04:22 AM, said:

I am not entirely convinced it's doable, and I am even less likely to believe that PGI would be the one to achieve it, but I would prefer Clan tech to be balanced against IS tech. I just hate the entire power creep behind it.

Ah-ha! That's the word(s) I was looking for. Power Creep. Yeah, it's bad and we should try to avoid having to deal with it in MWO.

[Yogsothoz]

Just wait for the squeals when SSRM6 hit with lagsheilded mechs. Has to be balanced.

And 'No TS' isnt a solution. People will just host their own.

Edited by Yogsothoz, 25 December 2012 - 05:23 AM.

[salmjuha]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 21 December 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

TPersonally, I think it wasnt ever meant to be fair and it shouldnt get nerfed just to preserve balance in the game

This is what I sometimes hate about you battletech veterans. You CAN'T sacrifice balance for stuff like this. Unless you really wan't to kill the game that is. One of the most important aspects of any player vs player is that you are fighting on relatively even footing. Introducing tech into the game that makes existing stuff obsolete is ******** to say the least.

rant: World War II sims like the combat mission series or steel panthers and how they deal with the technological differences are a great example. Historical fact is that german panthers and tigers were superior to shermans in most ways and pitting them one on one would be extremely one sided in most situations. They don't balance them by bending historical realities, they balance it by numbers. In multiplayer these games have a point buy system, and with the price of a tiger you can usually get almost two shermans, at least a sherman and decent amount of supporting infantry. /rant

Thing with mechwarrior is, you can't balance equipment like that. It's 8 vs 8, that's it. The moment you start introducing superior gear is the moment everything else becomes obsolete and the game experience comes crashing down for most people.

[Nightfangs]

I would rather have no clan tech at all than to have it twisted strangely like the DHSs.
Just balance it by number of mechs or drop weight.
What's the sense in making a mechwarrior game, if you reinvent the whole system anyway?

[salmjuha]

Nightfangs, on 25 December 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

I would rather have no clan tech at all than to have it twisted strangely like the DHSs.
Just balance it by number of mechs or drop weight.
What's the sense in making a mechwarrior game, if you reinvent the whole system anyway?

This is why I don't think adding clan stuff is even desirable. No way to balance it. If you balance it by matchmaking, guys with clan tech are still so much better than others. That's no balance at all.

[Wintersdark]

Nightfangs, on 25 December 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

I would rather have no clan tech at all than to have it twisted strangely like the DHSs.
Just balance it by number of mechs or drop weight.
What's the sense in making a mechwarrior game, if you reinvent the whole system anyway?

In a game like our current matches, you'd have to balance by a battle value system. You can't use number of mechs or drop weight, as Clan Mechs are substantially better ton for ton. Calculated battle value would be the only way to do it. However, that only applies for our current battle system.

Who knows how Community Warfare will impact things.