233 replies to this topic

[Nightfangs]

Wintersdark, on 25 December 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

You can't use number of mechs or drop weight, as Clan Mechs are substantially better ton for ton. Calculated battle value would be the only way to do it.

Sorry if that wasn't clear... I meant it that way.
8 IS vs. 5 Clan, or 600 tons vs 350 tons... something like that.

[shintakie]

Zaptruder, on 24 December 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

Rubbish to the highest order. You try a matchup with 8 players in trial mechs and 5 min-maxed (IS tech) mech players and see how it goes.

Depends on the trial mechs. A lot have fairly meh loadouts that are built off of a jack of all trades idea, some have high alphas though. Shove 8 trials with high alphas against 5 min maxed IS mechs and the 8 trials will mop the floor with the 5 IS mechs. Why? Because focus fire > tech advantages. Heck, shove 8 trials with decent alphas against 5 min maxed IS mechs and you'd still mop the floor with the 5 IS customs.

Is Clan tech strong? Sure. What do clan mechs not have an advantage over IS mechs in? Armor. They will have the exact same armor capabilities as IS mechs. The same focus fire that would leave a smolderin pit where an Atlas would be would also leave a smolderin pit where a Daishi would be, no matter how much more technologically better a Daishi is than a Atlas.

In a match of even skill (which elo rankins and whatnot aims for), a team with fewer numbers will lose 90% of the time to the team with a technological disadvantage in MWO. The only way they have a chance to succeed is if they completely outskill their opponents to a stupid degree, or they are a premade group set up against an entire team of pugs. Otherwise they will completely get rolled.

[Icebound]

In b4 it's balanced by prohibitive MC costs.

[Liquidx]

Clan technology was balanced around their code of honor and rules of engagement. None of this exists in online gaming, so I fully expect any implementation of clan technology to be a huge failure as it will instantly obsolete every comparable Inner Sphere weapon - and by a large margin.

Purchase price won't matter - since there no longer seems to be any repair mechanic, the cost of upkeep can't even be used as an attempt to balance the technology. I mean... a clan ER Medium laser would far and away outpace an Inner Sphere Large laser - to say nothing of how much more effective the ER Large and ERPPC are over IS technology.

[Yokaiko]

Until they can make the stock IS mechs actually work against each other, I don't think adding Clan tech is a great idea.


Plus LOL with this heat system, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA yeah people are going to blow up on their first cycle.

[Zaptruder]

shintakie, on 25 December 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

In a match of even skill (which elo rankins and whatnot aims for), a team with fewer numbers will lose 90% of the time to the team with a technological disadvantage in MWO. The only way they have a chance to succeed is if they completely outskill their opponents to a stupid degree, or they are a premade group set up against an entire team of pugs. Otherwise they will completely get rolled.

You continue to make assertions where you have no data to back you up.

With vastly superior firepower and speed, clan mechs are able to do much more damage and seek advantageous terrain and situations more easily. While in a flat terrain brawl, IS mechs might have an advantage due to multiple angles of attack, when you have cover and can move and weave through terrain more efficiently, you're able to better exploit the concentration of firepower.

Additionally, fewer but more powerful clan mechs allow players to get into appropriate angles of attack quicker (i.e. you're not blocking each others shots; which is not a trivially dismissable issue in the brawling range that IS mechs excel at), can bring more firepower to bear and focus down mechs faster than IS mechs.

The Dire Wolf can engage 2 Atlas with significantly more firepower than 2 can muster from long range. Up close, depending on the builds, it can still do damage equivalent to 2 atlases in short range.

Essentially, if you double the effective firepower, it's only fair that you half the armor (by reducing the number of available mechs, rather than by literally halving armor).

[AndyHill]

A couple of thoughts on why I think some of the suggestions might not work very well.

1) Balancing by running cost is dangerous, because
a) It's negative in forcing you to not play something you would like to play.
b ) It's pay to win to an extent, with premium account etc. giving a big bonus.
c) once you are in a battle and someone stomps your cost-effective IS build with a clan monster, his running costs won't help you in any way.
d) sorry for the melodramatic bolding, but think about this for a while: if high running costs are the balancing factor, the only people who can and will afford to run clantech will be 4-man death squads stomping pugs with 95% wins. NO thanks.

2) I don't think balancing by limiting numbers or BV (in random games at least) is a brilliant idea, because
a) given the chance I wouldn't hesitate a second to join a unit of elite pros about to stomp a larger number of cannon fodder. I don't know how many would disagree, though, would be interesting to find out. Note that even if your team blows, you're likely to get some damage done just because you're in such a powerful 'mech. On the opposing side, however...
b ) I don't really buy it that running fewer but better 'mechs is more difficult that running a horde of cannon fodder. If clan 'mechs are let's say 1.5X better, it means that every time you fire, you are automatically focusing firepower equivalent of 1.5 IS builds. If there are two of you, it's 3 vs 2 etc. And there are very few spots where it's even practical to try focusing a team of 8, so smaller numbers should almost always have the advantage.
c) because of a) and b ), IS tech would become rare, which might lead to smaller matches (if there is a BV cap in the game).

3) Limitation by XP requirements and purchase cost is probably a workable idea.This game could use some sense of achievement anyway.

I would rather see matches balanced by tiers. We have kind of already lost a lot of opportunity in tiering by not starting with the lowest BT tech levels, but maybe it would work if for example trials would be tier 1 (and you don't get the best designs as trials), IS is tier 2, IS with clan tech (with some limitations) is tier 3 (I don't even know if this would be a good idea, but let's include it as an example) and unlimited clan tech is tier 4. These tiers would be balanced on each side like they are in WoT now and the trials wouldn't probably need to ever see clantech.

In addition, there should be reasons for running IS gear. For example, no (or little) profit for you when running clan stuff (and no loss either). and perhaps huge XP and CB costs for getting clan stuff. Maybe even class-based xp so that to get one clan heavy you need to get lots of XP on IS heavies etc. These are just some quick ideas, but if there's interest they can be taken a lot further and would not only make it possible to include clan tech the way it's meant to be but perhaps make the rest of the game more interesting and motivating.

I also have to concur with one of the previous posters in saying that if the options are butchered and half-arsed clan tech or no clan tech at all, I wholeheartedly vote for the latter option. Clan tech is not a necessity, there is a LOT of IS stuff to work with, at least if the 'mechs retain enough character with the current hardpoint system.

Edited by AndyHill, 25 December 2012 - 10:31 AM.

[KinLuu]

If the game really makes it that far, I would prefer unmodified Clantech.

I hope that by then there will be some kind of BV-balancing system in place.

[Dane Dread]

This whole thread is very pie in the sky. Clan tech seems impossibly far off from the point this tech demo is now.

[Orgasmo]

shintakie, on 25 December 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

Depends on the trial mechs. A lot have fairly meh loadouts that are built off of a jack of all trades idea, some have high alphas though. Shove 8 trials with high alphas against 5 min maxed IS mechs and the 8 trials will mop the floor with the 5 IS mechs. Why? Because focus fire > tech advantages. Heck, shove 8 trials with decent alphas against 5 min maxed IS mechs and you'd still mop the floor with the 5 IS customs.

Is Clan tech strong? Sure. What do clan mechs not have an advantage over IS mechs in? Armor. They will have the exact same armor capabilities as IS mechs. The same focus fire that would leave a smolderin pit where an Atlas would be would also leave a smolderin pit where a Daishi would be, no matter how much more technologically better a Daishi is than a Atlas.

In a match of even skill (which elo rankins and whatnot aims for), a team with fewer numbers will lose 90% of the time to the team with a technological disadvantage in MWO. The only way they have a chance to succeed is if they completely outskill their opponents to a stupid degree, or they are a premade group set up against an entire team of pugs. Otherwise they will completely get rolled.

Solution is simple, bring in R&R cost for Clans mechs. In addition, force 8v5 (two lances vs a star) or 12vs10(three lances vs two stars) matches. No Clans will not be steamrolled. Can you imagine the firepower the Clans mech will bring, having more critical space, less weight and omni hardpoints. That means greater mobility and firepower. If they fought with even numbers, the Clans would murder any IS team, especially when the Clans honor code has no bearing on players.

[Ozric]

No solution is necessary. Clan tech will be the next tier of equipment and fit right in to the existing gear/upgrade system. Everyone will be able to get it, somehow, and everyone will be able to use it whenever they want. This is how PGI will roll out clan tech, because this is how it will make them the most money.

It seems to me that the only people that want superpowered clans are people that want to play superpowered clans. I know that this is how a lot of people thought about them from TT, but not everybody did. The idea that it is fundamental cannon must be tempered by the memory that some people felt the clans actually broke cannon/the game when they were first released in TT. So who's cannon is more cannon?

In a skill based online shooter with aspirations of a genuine esport, balance is king. The clans will be balanced, they must be.

[Yokaiko]

We didn't get true DHS because there needed to be a reason for singles.


....and we want true clan tech in the game.

You are trolling rights.

SSRM6 UAC20s and EVERYTHING is lighter, takes less crit slots and is generally better (free arm case anyone)

Edited by Yokaiko, 25 December 2012 - 11:59 AM.

[Inappropriate1191]

Something I said in the Clan Forums

Inappropriate1191, on 25 December 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

You know, looking at Sarna, I think I found what could be the best compromise with Clan balancing. Simply speed up the timeline for when the Inner Sphere gets access to what I call the, "Cheap, Chinese knock-offs" of Clan tech. I'm talking, X-pulse lasers, Light Fusion Engines, and Endo-Composite internal structures.

Those things act kind of like Clan tech, and are superior to most IS tech, but not quite as good as Clan. They're somewhere in between. For instance, the Light Fusion Engines only save you 25% of engine weight, but only take up an additional 4 crit slots, and if you lose a side torso, you don't die, merely take a hit to your speed. Endo-Composite is only 7 crit slots, but gives 2.5% more tonnage instead of 5%. Things like that.

It's still not as good as just letting IS have Clan tech, but it does help close the gap a little, and make balancing easier.

[Wintersdark]

... Why is everyone focusing on how broken a Clan vs. IS battle would be? PUG's would likely feature a mix of Clan and IS mechs on each side. Premades would either feature a mix, or pure clan, but I think the likelyhood of ever seeing pure Clan tech vs. pure IS tech, team vs. team, is extremely low for the obvious reasons.

It's no different than complaining about how unbalanced a match of all Assault mechs vs. all Light mechs(without lagshields) would be.

The matchmaking system would fairly obviously ensure that the forces are balanced. Not by weight classes as currently because that's not actually terribly balanced and is a placeholder system even now.

[Yokaiko]

Wintersdark, on 25 December 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

It's no different than complaining about how unbalanced a match of all Assault mechs vs. all Light mechs(without lagshields) would be.

Way back before the Awesome during "Atlas Online" we used to build teams around the idea that there were going to be 6 Atlases, minimum, on every drop.

We used K2s and fast mediums to completely roflstomp those teams....back before weight "balancing".

[Vanguard319]

Clan tech is fine. Sure it does more damage, is lighter/less bulky, and has higher firing rates/longer range, but it tends to have increased cost and generates more heat. Also, it will likely be incredibly rare in the beginning

[Yokaiko]

Vanguard319, on 25 December 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

Clan tech is fine. Sure it does more damage, is lighter/less bulky, and has higher firing rates/longer range, but it tends to have increased cost and generates more heat. Also, it will likely be incredibly rare in the beginning

What is this cost you speak of?

[Elepole]

Random idea: if you use any clan tech you don't gain money at the end, no matter if you have premium or not. Even if it's a small clan laser.

[GalaxyBluestar]

it's easy to balance

they should be nearly 3 times more expensive to use because they are exclusive and only good pilots should use them.

so i voted for keep clan tech unbalanced cause few IS mech are going to carry IS gear when clan stuff hits the shelfs anyways.

[shintakie]

Zaptruder, on 25 December 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

You continue to make assertions where you have no data to back you up.

With vastly superior firepower and speed, clan mechs are able to do much more damage and seek advantageous terrain and situations more easily. While in a flat terrain brawl, IS mechs might have an advantage due to multiple angles of attack, when you have cover and can move and weave through terrain more efficiently, you're able to better exploit the concentration of firepower.

Additionally, fewer but more powerful clan mechs allow players to get into appropriate angles of attack quicker (i.e. you're not blocking each others shots; which is not a trivially dismissable issue in the brawling range that IS mechs excel at), can bring more firepower to bear and focus down mechs faster than IS mechs.

The Dire Wolf can engage 2 Atlas with significantly more firepower than 2 can muster from long range. Up close, depending on the builds, it can still do damage equivalent to 2 atlases in short range.

Essentially, if you double the effective firepower, it's only fair that you half the armor (by reducing the number of available mechs, rather than by literally halving armor).

A stock Daishi would overheat if it fired all 4 of its ER Large Lasers in MWO with the way heat works. 2 Atlases would mop the floor with a Daishi. Heck, 2 Atlas K's, the worst Atlas of them all, would wipe a Daishi out with little to no trouble.