106 replies to this topic

[Thirdstar]

Alaric the Arcane, on 21 December 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

My point is that the people who care too much about stats being hidden are usually those who have something to hide. It's usually the same people who talk big on the forums but can't back it up in-game.

Ah, I see your point now and I agree. Mind you the very people who talk big on the forums will then cry foul if you attempt to use their own stats against them. Then you will end up the 'bad guy' who's being elitist.

[Duncan Fisher]

Alaric the Arcane, on 21 December 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

People who want to keep stats/ratings/etc. hidden are just afraid that the general public will be able to see how bad they really are, even though they talk **** on the forums constantly.

Alaric the Arcane, on 21 December 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

They are working on including more stats (which will be public), as well as a rating system (Elo). There's no reason for this information to not be public. Unless of course you talk a load of **** on the forums and when these stats hit you'll be discovered as a baddy.

No.

With a hidden rating system, you get even matches balanced by skill. Once you make ratings public, people will find a way to cheat/break the game to buff their own ratings.
Even now people play differently (arguably less 'team-oriented,' which some already complain about) because they can see their k/d, but given that just about every modern online game has some sort of stat tracking, it would be silly to not give players access to at least this information. At the same time though, I think matchmaking will be better off with a behind-the-scenes rating for each individual. The true competitive play should be left to houses/units, which would be rated (publicly) as a team (better indicator, given that this is supposed to be a very team-based game).

[HRR Insanity]

Alaric the Arcane, on 21 December 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

My point is that the people who care too much about stats being hidden are usually those who have something to hide. It's usually the same people who talk big on the forums but can't back it up in-game.

And people who want unnecessary stats made public are usually cheaters who need to show off their handiwork in a vain attempt to prove they aren't a waste of space. Oh wait...

We already see people acting badly to maintain an insignificant statistic (K/D) via pre-death disconnects. Do we really want to have these same people attempting to game the matchmaking process by having their matchmaking rank/ELO be visible?

What would be better for the game?

[Mavairo]

Me and my 1.8 KDR don't care about stats. (I pug, and 8 man. It happens)

[Thirdstar]

HRR Insanity, on 21 December 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

And people who want unnecessary stats made public are usually cheaters who need to show off their handiwork in a vain attempt to prove they aren't a waste of space. Oh wait...

We already see people acting badly to maintain an insignificant statistic (K/D) via pre-death disconnects. Do we really want to have these same people attempting to game the matchmaking process by having their matchmaking rank/ELO be visible?

What would be better for the game?

People who will game/exploit the system will do it anyway, even if you give them the shield of privacy.

[HRR Insanity]

Thirdstar, on 21 December 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

People who will game/exploit the system will do it anyway, even if you give them the shield of privacy.

It's very difficult to game something if you can't get feedback on your activities. This suggestion has nothing to do with a 'shield of privacy' for morons. It has everything to do with making it harder for them to affect the game in a negative fashion.

[Belkor]

Duncan Fisher, on 21 December 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

No.

With a hidden rating system, you get even matches balanced by skill. Once you make ratings public, people will find a way to cheat/break the game to buff their own ratings.
Even now people play differently (arguably less 'team-oriented,' which some already complain about) because they can see their k/d, but given that just about every modern online game has some sort of stat tracking, it would be silly to not give players access to at least this information. At the same time though, I think matchmaking will be better off with a behind-the-scenes rating for each individual. The true competitive play should be left to houses/units, which would be rated (publicly) as a team (better indicator, given that this is supposed to be a very team-based game).

Considering how well public stats worked in WoT or League of Legends, I think public stats will also be fine in MWO.

HRR Insanity, on 21 December 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

And people who want unnecessary stats made public are usually cheaters who need to show off their handiwork in a vain attempt to prove they aren't a waste of space. Oh wait...

We already see people acting badly to maintain an insignificant statistic (K/D) via pre-death disconnects. Do we really want to have these same people attempting to game the matchmaking process by having their matchmaking rank/ELO be visible?

What would be better for the game?

What a load of garbage. Your sweeping generalization of players with good stats = all cheaters? Are you kidding? How desperate are you to hide your own stats? Pre-death disconnects can be addressed when proper stat collecting gets implemented.

As for 'gaming' the matchmaking process, I see absolutely zero benefit in doing so. If they game the matchmaker to lower elo, they will fight easier opponents but will have to deal with a laughable elo rating. If they game the matchmaker to higher elo, they will face brutal opponents and will eventually be pushed back down. Like I stated before, League of Legend's public elo system works great so it should work well here too.

And yes, public stats will be better for this game. It will help foster some competition.

Edited by Belkor, 21 December 2012 - 10:33 PM.

[tokumboh]

I just checked my stats I have 1 kill and 86 deaths no one can beat that. ;-)
I think that public stats could work. I wouldn't really care I just love running round and shooting things as my wind down from work. It is a game it shouldn't be too serious ( even the trolling !!!!).

My problem isn't public stats, overpowered mech or weapons, it is comms and a proper training ground. From a newbie perspective I feel that what stops the game from being large.

Anyway enough of a forum rant I going back to game someone gonna die (and yes it probably me)

UPDATE: got another kill, 2 and 90

Edited by tokumboh, 22 December 2012 - 02:44 AM.

[HRR Insanity]

Belkor, on 21 December 2012 - 10:32 PM, said:

Considering how well public stats worked in WoT or League of Legends, I think public stats will also be fine in MWO.

You realize that for the majority of games in LoL and WoT, you have no idea what your matchmaking rank is? The only time you get a public ranking is if you choose to play 'ranked' games in LoL.

Quote

What a load of garbage. Your sweeping generalization of players with good stats = all cheaters? Are you kidding? How desperate are you to hide your own stats? Pre-death disconnects can be addressed when proper stat collecting gets implemented.

/laughs/ You are either very gullible or just didn't read. I was sarcastically returning the argumentum ad hominem. He conflated people who don't want stats with people who are bad at the game. I returned the favor.

I have no concerns about my stats. =)

Quote

And yes, public stats will be better for this game. It will help foster some competition.

No, it will generally lead to people whining about 'how come we have all these low ELO players on my team, the MM sucks...'

I'm all for public stats, just not for the matchmaking stat to be public.

Edited by HRR Insanity, 21 December 2012 - 10:44 PM.

[Thirdstar]

HRR Insanity, on 21 December 2012 - 10:28 PM, said:

It's very difficult to game something if you can't get feedback on your activities. This suggestion has nothing to do with a 'shield of privacy' for morons. It has everything to do with making it harder for them to affect the game in a negative fashion.

I may be wrong about this but just knowing your own ELO rank shouldn't provide enough information to game the system. Since all you have is a variable number without knowing the actual formula that goes into generating the rating itself. So, in conclusion I think the ELO rating itself should not be an issue but the methodology of obtaining said rating should be kept from the playerbase.

[HRR Insanity]

Thirdstar, on 21 December 2012 - 10:43 PM, said:

I may be wrong about this but just knowing your own ELO rank shouldn't provide enough information to game the system. Since all you have is a variable number without knowing the actual formula that goes into generating the rating itself. So, in conclusion I think the ELO rating itself should not be an issue but the methodology of obtaining said rating should be kept from the playerbase.

/sighs and puts head down on the desk/

That's the whole point of feedback. If you do something and see your rating change.. you can keep doing that thing or not.

But regardless...

http://mwomercs.com/...79-matchmaking/

Edited by HRR Insanity, 21 December 2012 - 10:52 PM.

[IceSerpent]

Duncan Fisher, on 21 December 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

With a hidden rating system, you get even matches balanced by skill. Once you make ratings public, people will find a way to cheat/break the game to buff their own ratings.

To what end? Even if you manage to "hack" your ELO rating and make it higher, it would only result in MM matching you against a better team, which would promptly roflstomp you, thus decreasing your rating back to where it should be.

[HRR Insanity]

IceSerpent, on 21 December 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

To what end? Even if you manage to "hack" your ELO rating and make it higher, it would only result in MM matching you against a better team, which would promptly roflstomp you, thus decreasing your rating back to where it should be.

How about the opposite, though? What if malicious folk want to beat up on the new players? To do this, they know they need to lower their 'team MM/ELO rank' to the point where it will be matched against newbs. Based on their calculations (because they know their MM/ELO rank), they know that they need to find 2 people with MM/ELO below 800 to bring their 'team MM/ELO' down to the level where the newbs will be flayed. See how this could go badly?

LoL has it's issue with smurfs preying on the low ELO folks. We will too if we let it.

[Thirdstar]

HRR Insanity, on 21 December 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

LoL has it's issue with smurfs preying on the low ELO folks. We will too if we let it.

We already do...................

[HRR Insanity]

Thirdstar, on 21 December 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

We already do...................

/sighs/ Yes. That's what the MM system will hopefully fix. If the MM rankings are public, then it likely WON'T FIX IT.

Edited by HRR Insanity, 21 December 2012 - 11:32 PM.

[Thirdstar]

HRR Insanity, on 21 December 2012 - 11:24 PM, said:

/sighs/ Yes. That's what the MM system will hopefully fix. If the MM rankings are public, then it likely WON'T FIX IT.

Well i'll claim a lack of understanding about the nuances in this issue and i'll take your word for it. I'm good with whatever creates a better game.

[Karl TenBrew]

I'm still confused how you all manage to miss the point, because there is one thing that's pretty clear:

The way that people use public stats is stupid, which is a reflection of THEM, not the stat in question or the fact that it's public.

Especially consider the following: in a game that rewards assists even more than most, the metric chosen is still K/D, NOT an actual measure of preformance on a TEAM [C-bills or XP / match would be a better metric for this, though still not a perfect one]. After all, while we're on the subject of people focusing on pushing a particular stat, a high K/D can simply indicate a kill-stealer who last hits instead of getting many assists and actually getting those mechs to the red-zone in the first place. Does everyone with a high K/D do that? Certainly not, but the point is that like any other stat, it can be misleading.

In case you're wondering, this is why I'm in favor of more information being shared. The folks who are truly doing it wrong are going to KEEP doing it wrong, whether the information is public or not. On the other hand, the more information available (and the better its kept and sorted with things like a match history or displayed such as by trending), the better off the people using it right will be. In particular, it lets you judge if a player has hit a skill plateu, is getting better, or is in a funk.

And at best, I'm a mediocre MechWarrior striving to improve, so take all the shots you at the new guy

Edited by Karl TenBrew, 21 December 2012 - 11:40 PM.

[IceSerpent]

HRR Insanity, on 21 December 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

How about the opposite, though? What if malicious folk want to beat up on the new players? To do this, they know they need to lower their 'team MM/ELO rank' to the point where it will be matched against newbs. Based on their calculations (because they know their MM/ELO rank), they know that they need to find 2 people with MM/ELO below 800 to bring their 'team MM/ELO' down to the level where the newbs will be flayed. See how this could go badly?

LoL has it's issue with smurfs preying on the low ELO folks. We will too if we let it.

Yep, it's a good point. Yet, their ELO would increase while they are winning against newbies, so they would either have to lose a bunch of matches on purpose in order to keep it down (which defeats the whole point of "roflstomping n00bs") or they would have to reapply the hack on a regular basis, which is easily detectable (number of drops played and changes in ELO woouldn't match). It's certainly something PGI should keep in mind though.

[Alexandrix]

Considering the ridiculous amount of abuse the matchmaking system has endured,and continues to endure from the breath taking amount of trolls this game has attracted....I fully expect troll teams to maintain alt accounts just to continue to exploit the MM.They will use these accounts purely to steamroll noobs and will afk/suicide many matches to make sure their ELO stays low enough to do so.Mark my words.

It's mind numbing the amount of garbage scum will do just to get an easy win and/or troll other people.it's pathetic,honestly.

Edited by Alexandrix, 21 December 2012 - 11:50 PM.

[The Legendary Samurai]

Alaric the Arcane, on 21 December 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

People who want to keep stats/ratings/etc. hidden are just afraid that the general public will be able to see how bad they really are, even though they talk **** on the forums constantly.

That's not entirely true. Gears of War 2 made their matchmaker rankings public and it was an awful mistake. People found all kinds of ways to game the system to get a high ranking, and usually it resulted in lower quality for the masses. I personally want to know my rating, and have no problem with the world seeing it, but only if it's done smartly by PGI. If they make it possible for players to avoid a decrease in their rating by quitting when they're losing, or quitting to avoid taking a death (we're already seeing a lot of that now and K/D ratios aren't even public), then it will be bad for business. I would rather the ratings were kept internal by PGI unless they find a way to do it that players can't take advantage of.