195 replies to this topic

[Khan Hallis]

My view on ECM is relatively simple.
Multiple components have been rolled into a single system here providing imbalance.

ECM is NOT supposed to cloak your' mech or make it invisible in any way. Not even the Null signature system from the original Star League era did this. That system made it harder to detect due to channeling heat out special baffles installed in the feet of the 'mech, and similar to current stealth technology, reduced the radar signature of a 'mech to near nothingness. It did not make it impossible to detect, just far more difficult.

It IS supposed to: prevent Streak locks (therefore they do not fire), Artemis IV FCS improvements in grouping missiles (therefore they act as if Artemis was not installed), NARC pod locks (just like Artemis), TAG lock improvements in grouping on missiles (just like Artemis), other ECM working (except in counter mode), BAP finding hidden units out of line of sight (behind mountains etcetera), and disrupt C3 networks (not in MWO currently therefore irrelevant for discussion).

I cannot speak to such things as "Angel ECM" or any of the "improved" effects it was supposed to have over standard Guardian ECM, as I always ignored non-tournament legal equipment in TT, as I never saw a group that permitted its use.

Currently there is nearly no effect to be seen in BAP, and it is of negligible value in game. Not zero value but very low.

Do I like ECM. Yes. Do I think it is OP? Probably. Do I think it still needs a lot of adjustments. Definitely.

Just my 2 cents for what little bit it's worth, especially given how much the devs will pay attention.

Back to the game....

[Shredhead]

paladin yst, on 22 December 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

Ecm at this current stage is a hugely game ruining mechanism. Reason being the majority of ecm users are light, and the fake medium cicada. Ecm atlas is fine, coz even with this shameful netcode, at least it is still targetable.

Ive been in matches where our last cicada/raven killed 2-3 enemy assaults and wins the game. Not that I`m complaining about winning, Ive also been on the losing team where 2-4 our the mechs cant kill an ecm'ed light.

Ecm light/fake med cicada
- Impossible to be targeted by streaks, which is such a foolish idea because streak is suppose to be 100% hit rate, hence the extra ton and cost to buy a lesser dmg streak instead of a srm. The problem is NOT netcode. Its the rediculous ecm which can kill enemy mech wep.

Ecm disruptions - ridiculous
- The ability for such a device to totally kill the radar and every single lock items is simply, ridiculous.

Ecm MUST change, the complete disruption of lock weps is seriously ruining every1 fun, when someone went into a game with streak or lrm as your main weapon, get ready for a terrible game.

I know the purpose of ecm are meant to be shields, but at the current stage its invulnerability, whic his game breaking to say the least, its more of game ruining. I hope ecm going to be rebalance to more of a shield. Remove any nonsense lock disable mechanism and change it to +50-100% lock time, a light can still outrun a lock but currently its god mode.

The cloaking itself is extremely game changing already, not to mention it can easily wipe a small party with the disruption and none of them would know where they r at that crucial moment, only after when they perish or by other means.

It's funny and awkward at the same time as you are listing all important points, but instead of thinking about it you whine "omgnerfecmnaoh!!!"
You said it yourself, it's not the ECM itself that is OP, but the bad netcode and lack of collisions, so how about we wait for that to get fixed before we do any changes to ECM that will then have to be corrected again?

[Noth]

Khan Hallis, on 23 December 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

My view on ECM is relatively simple.
Multiple components have been rolled into a single system here providing imbalance.

ECM is NOT supposed to cloak your' mech or make it invisible in any way. Not even the Null signature system from the original Star League era did this. That system made it harder to detect due to channeling heat out special baffles installed in the feet of the 'mech, and similar to current stealth technology, reduced the radar signature of a 'mech to near nothingness. It did not make it impossible to detect, just far more difficult.

It IS supposed to: prevent Streak locks (therefore they do not fire), Artemis IV FCS improvements in grouping missiles (therefore they act as if Artemis was not installed), NARC pod locks (just like Artemis), TAG lock improvements in grouping on missiles (just like Artemis), other ECM working (except in counter mode), BAP finding hidden units out of line of sight (behind mountains etcetera), and disrupt C3 networks (not in MWO currently therefore irrelevant for discussion).

I cannot speak to such things as "Angel ECM" or any of the "improved" effects it was supposed to have over standard Guardian ECM, as I always ignored non-tournament legal equipment in TT, as I never saw a group that permitted its use.

Currently there is nearly no effect to be seen in BAP, and it is of negligible value in game. Not zero value but very low.

Do I like ECM. Yes. Do I think it is OP? Probably. Do I think it still needs a lot of adjustments. Definitely.

Just my 2 cents for what little bit it's worth, especially given how much the devs will pay attention.

Back to the game....

Actually guardian ECM is not supposed to prevent streak locks, it is the angel ECM that does that.

[Khan Hallis]

Noth...I stand corrected. Thank you.
I had to go back and look at Total Warfare to make sure. It's been a while. So that would be 3 pieces of equipment rolled into this one now.

And I cannot for the life of me fathom how the choice was made to put it on the Commando 2D, Cicada 3M, or Atlas 7D (DC) (supposed to have the Command Console standard though), as none of these 'mechs carry it normally (not to mention the Commando only have 2 SRM mounts and 1 laser vice the 3 missile and 1 energy hardpoint seen here). Far as I can tell the only 'mech currently here in game at MWO that should have the ECM is the Raven 3L. I see plenty of them but those others...nope. shouldn't be seeing as many of the others as we do. The only reason we are is the addition of ECM to them and the imbalance it brings.

Oh well...more gaming...

[BoomDog]

Felix, on 23 December 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

inb4 people tell you to learn to play

Hush now.

The big boys are talking.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

verybad, on 22 December 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

They mentioned there were a fe things coming that would affeect ECM. PPCs and module(s)

There should be multiple counters, not just 1.
BAP-Partially counter ECM for the guy mounting it.(Restore some radar range)
Tag-Disable ECM on the marked target while the beam is held.
NARC-Disable ECM on the marked target for the duration.
Making the PPC fry the thing for a duration wouldn't be a bad idea either and add a little extra more value to PPCs.(Currently most people never use them at all)

KingNobody, on 23 December 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

The solution I would prefer is that ECM be split into the 3 devices that it was in TT, Guardian ECM, Angel ECM, and Null Sig (and make every 'mech able to use at least one, with the "ECM" 'mechs being able to carry all 3). This would promote more diversity on the battlefield.

ECM doing all of this as 1 device would be acceptable if other things weren't rendered useless just by its mere presence. ECM does all this stuff, and BAP does next to nothing.(And vs ECM, it does nothing at all) That's not balanced at all. That's a scale where one side has a brick on it and the other side has a toothpick.

[Marcus Tanner]

Kousagi, on 22 December 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

PGI deviated from TT from the start of the game. All mechs have C3i for free of cost. The tech does not even come out for it till 3067. Target sharing should not even be able to be done without the C3 system that was currently in use at this time.

That's not true.

Mechs have always been able to transmit enemy target position and status, regardless of C3.

C3 doesn't just tell you where a mech is or how badly it's hurt, it makes the target (much) easier to hit, even with unguided direct-fire weaponry. The MWO targeting systems don't do that.

---

I'll be running an ECM-capable mech, and I would do so regardless of the presence or absence of LRMsand streaks on the other side. Even if my opponents just used ballistics and lasers all the time, I'd still bring ECM.

When I want towreck things with a missile boat, I just need to bring a friend with an ECM-capable spotter. LRM boats are still lame, they're just a tool for teams and not so much PUGs.

Similarly streaks are still just as lame, so long as you have ECM or a an ECM-buddy.

ECM didn't fix streaks or LRMs, it just expanded the gap between teams and PUGs.

Edited by Marcus Tanner, 23 December 2012 - 08:00 PM.

[DocBach]

Even if you consider our sharing of target information C3, we should still be able to target enemies in the bubble and transmit targeting data as long as we aren't inside the bubble or on the other side with direct line of sight to friendly units we are transmitting to crossing the bubble.

[Tilon]

Staplebeater, on 22 December 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

The use of ECM has actually balanced out pretty well right now. We are seeing a lot of stalkers on the field as they are new and they don't have ECM. i run 8-mans and we aren't bringing only ECM mechs typically 3 or 4.

Oh so ONLY half of your team uses it, so it's balanced! LOL

Try running a team without it.

Kousagi, on 22 December 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

Oh also, ECM does not stop direct fire weapons, of which there are 21 useful ones, You might want to use them and not depend purely on the 5 weapons that are effected by ECM. Oh, did ya also know that Tag counters ECM? so you can still direct fire your LRM's...

Oh, so we're supposed to all just use direct fire weapons and ignore how a single piece of equipment obsoletes 5 weapons in the game, making them nigh useless.

Uh, no thanks.

Quote

Yes. ECM really sucks. I can no longer sit 800 meters back and just pull the trigger.
I have to actually move around learn how to target mechs outside ECM effect.

Am I to take from this that most ECM lovers were just idiots who ran around in the open and had no concept of USING COVER?

[TBAG]

ECM has definitely ruined the game. can't target anything. Worst is lrm boats protected by ecm. They can hit me all day long but I can't get a lock a return fire with my lrms. Terrible system. I know they will fix it, but until they do the game has just become far less fun to play

[TBAG]

Plus I was just in a match where I was that only poor guy in the entire match both on my team and the enemy team who wasn't using an ecm mech. Since I was the only one the enemy could get lock on I'm first dead everytime. Basically punished for using a mech I want to play with.

[Corvus Antaka]

ECM is not supposed to cloak your mech. infact dirupt should make you easier to detect outside 180m, but once enemy is inside the 180m bubble the current effect is fine...except that instead of completely negating lockon times it should double them from where they are now once you are inside a hostile mechs disrupt bubble.

completely negating missile locks is too powerful and it makes newbs who join rage quit & very frustrated - oh..i see...i shouldnt bother with LRM or SSRM because if someone takes ECM I'm boned. or "ECM or bust" as it is now.

this is imho the most significant problem with ECM right now. the obvious dominance of ECM carrying mechs over non-ECM capable mechs is another fine example that this system is completely OP.

[Hood]

Why cant ECM be what it was suppose to be? It was meant for mainly light mechs to seek around with to help hide there signiture, help being the key word. Not be able to walk up to someone say hi and lol because they cant be targeted..

ECM is only so strong it is and should not be the end all be all in missile warfare. Yes tag helps but it does not help the lance command to say target Alfa and half your lance cant fire due to ECM and they are standing right next to you.. ECM is not and should not be the Rogue of WoW.

[Avatara]

Not sure if anyone has put this idea forward yet. (probably has) But instead of changing the range and effect of ECM why not add heat to it? if you have the ECM on it generates heat. Say at half the rate of a flamer. That way if you use it too much you shut down/have to pick and choose how often you fire. Of course we would have to add an on\off button to the ECM to make it work.

[Gnuz]

In my experience of it so far, ECM superiority is the closest thing to a "we win" button MW:O has at the moment. Any team without ECM or outnumbered in terms of ECM has a very hard slog ahead of them in order to achieve a victory. On a significant number of occasions I've watched a single surviving ECM light finish off 3 or even 4 survivors of a "winning" team to grab victory from the jaws of what arguably "should" have been defeat, in my opinion.

Yes I believe it's unbalanced and should be made less fundamental to victory.

How that can best be achieved I'm not sure. A good start would be more and different counters to it, the answer to ECM needs to be something other than "more ECM".

my 2c.

[Holcsmash]

RocketDog, on 22 December 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

100% agreed.

ECM as we have it now makes pugging a luck-of-the-draw thing. If you end up on a team without ECM you just have to hope the other side hasn't brought LRM boats or SSRM Ravens. If they do, well I've had a number of games recently where my team just got splattered without being able to do much in return. No fun and not good for a game trying to grow a player community.

LRMs and streak cats were a bit too good and needed taming to make the game fun to play, but putting ECM on mechs with lag shields was not the solution.

paladin yst, on 22 December 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

That little sentence explains everything lol, broken, so damn broken. Would happily fight and own or die to an atlas. Against a raven its more like rear cored lol.




I suppose this comes from a moron with no skill? Btw I`m an ecm user, for me to see heavy & assaults running away from my little raven is just, illogical. I enjoys both winning and losing,

Artemis era was great when I actually have to use some skill to dodge and infiltrate, now I frikking zerg into they whole 8 man formation and they scatter, lost their radar and they thought all their mates died, when I shoot at them they just ran, a few fight back obviously and I vanish into the shadows, obviously since none can see me. Obviously enemy ecm can counter me but these days who would dare risk turning their ecm to counter mode lol. ZOMG wheres my cloak my easy ecm godlike mode, woot turned off counter.

Ecm is fun and all but this ecm era is the most boring stage I ever got in the entire beta. Lrm is so much fun where its like sniper vs sniper, whoever got into position first and fire theirs win(when they r still imba at that time but massive fun). However ecm is like a no skill game.

Starting in 10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1

A: Hi any1 with ecm?
B: Me I got it.
A: EVERYONE FOLLOW HIM
B: ok....

Pretty boring game, rush in, brawl brawl brawl, no tactics boring match, cover and everything means nothing. Lrm era, cover, avoid open, meet brawl, take more cover, skirmish or zerg lrmer, always something to do other than boring ecm brawl. Gauss era is even more fun, take out heavythreat unit, aka kittykats etc, and all the above moves.

Ecm era - just walk behind building and the entire zone is cloak and radar free. Mech like pults who r actually meant to be long range support is taken out of the game, rendering it obselete. Centurions, atlas, awesome, stalker which all comes with inbuild lrm has to change it just to match this piece of equipment.

Agree with all of this and the OP. I like the idea of ECM. I'm not saying it should go away. I just feel that it's tougher than it should be. Some things that would help:

If someone's got sights on enemy mechs, then those with LRM should be able to target them, but the seeking can still be hampered. The SSRMs should be able to fire but not seek.

The ECM should be restricted to the mech it's on and not a bubble that encompases the surrounding mechs. If the bubble effect isn't changed then collision should be put back in.

The lack of detection should be 400-500 meeters, not the short range it is now. My team got PWND because we couldn't see them (not only because they came from behind) until they were ALL litterally on top of us long range support and started shooting. My game didn't even alert me that they were under the 200m range. After that it was a wipe.

[Dirus Nigh]

The combination of ECM and streak spam is what is most wrong with the game right now. No weapon system should be hold down button auto damage target at any angle.

[paladin yst]

Post here if any1 has some thoughts about this issue, I know theres been plenty of similar threads but still the more concentrated it is the better.

[GalaxyBluestar]

why hasn't this thread be thrown on the ecm feedback 100+ page bonfire page?

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

GalaxyBluestar, on 25 December 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

why hasn't this thread be thrown on the ecm feedback 100+ page bonfire page?

Good question. I guess the mods finally put down the ECM thread axe. But hey, they're probably pretty busy stalking my post history with a magnifying glass in one hand and a printout of the rules in the other just looking for the smallest thing to bother me about. Oh, wait a minute, now I'm going to get it for revealing all that! /facepalm

Edit: POST DELETED.
*stamps everywhere*
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Edited by Bluten, 25 December 2012 - 03:34 AM.