195 replies to this topic

[Ozric]

The trouble with ECM right now is that it's the whole electronic warfare system in one tiny box. I'm more confident than ever that it will be further balanced, but we may have to wait for the electronic warfare system to get another once over first.

Edited by Ozric, 22 December 2012 - 10:15 AM.

[King Arthur IV]

really? iv been lazy and playing lrm boats all day today.

[Kousagi]

Noth, on 22 December 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

I game design choice,like they did with everything. It made support LRMs have a purpose and give purpose to spotting in game. They did it so people would get benefit for those types of things and expand from just brawling. The current ECM completely removes such and encourages brawling above all else.

Paladin Yst explained exactly what the problem is. Before ECM I could avoid LRM fire, I could sneak up on people, I could flank. Doing so took actual effort though. Now with this powerful of ECM it trivializes it, no threat of being spotted, and just blindly run to get into position to flank instead of having to stick to specific routes and rely on team mates to spot mechs so I don't run directly into them.

So could ECM by your own idea's be used as a balancing mechanic vs Free C3i systems? Cause think of how the game would be if we removed Target sharing from the game. It would have much the same effect as ECM no? Except that all mechs would basically have it. Now sure LRM boats would still be able to fire with LOS, Which they can do now with tag anyhow, but most of what people cry about ECM for would be no different. ECM killing off streaks is a acceptable thing I see too, Sure they need to code it so they act as normal SSRM's when in ECM range, but I'm sure they will get to that. Remember this is the first phase of Electronic warfare.

Also, how does ECM stop long range weapons? Direct fire is still in effect. Really ECM made scouting useful again, as before a mech with BAP and the sensor mod could pick up mechs 1.2k out, Which killed scouting. There was no sneaking up on people, ever. They just ignored ya, to bad effect on themselfs.

Oh also, another TT deviation, LRMs locking on, not a TT thing. As LRMs are dumb fire in TT, I mean theres even Streak LRM's.. so.

Edited by Kousagi, 22 December 2012 - 10:22 AM.

[GioAvanti]

paladin yst, on 22 December 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

Ecm at this current stage is a hugely game ruining mechanism. Reason being the majority of ecm users are light, and the fake medium cicada. Ecm atlas is fine, coz even with this shameful netcode, at least it is still targetable.

Ive been in matches where our last cicada/raven killed 2-3 enemy assaults and wins the game. Not that I`m complaining about winning, Ive also been on the losing team where 2-4 our the mechs cant kill an ecm'ed light.

Ecm light/fake med cicada
- Impossible to be targeted by streaks, which is such a foolish idea because streak is suppose to be 100% hit rate, hence the extra ton and cost to buy a lesser dmg streak instead of a srm. The problem is NOT netcode. Its the rediculous ecm which can kill enemy mech wep.

Ecm disruptions - ridiculous
- The ability for such a device to totally kill the radar and every single lock items is simply, ridiculous.

Ecm MUST change, the complete disruption of lock weps is seriously ruining every1 fun, when someone went into a game with streak or lrm as your main weapon, get ready for a terrible game.

I know the purpose of ecm are meant to be shields, but at the current stage its invulnerability, whic his game breaking to say the least, its more of game ruining. I hope ecm going to be rebalance to more of a shield. Remove any nonsense lock disable mechanism and change it to +50-100% lock time, a light can still outrun a lock but currently its god mode.

The cloaking itself is extremely game changing already, not to mention it can easily wipe a small party with the disruption and none of them would know where they r at that crucial moment, only after when they perish or by other means.

My speed dragon versus an ecm cicada was a pretty fun duel.

[GioAvanti]

Kousagi, on 22 December 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

So could ECM by your own idea's be used as a balancing mechanic vs Free C3i systems? Cause think of how the game would be if we removed Target sharing from the game. It would have much the same effect as ECM no? Except that all mechs would basically have it. Now sure LRM boats would still be able to fire with LOS, Which they can do now with tag anyhow, but most of what people cry about ECM for would be no different. ECM killing off streaks is a acceptable thing I see too, Sure they need to code it so they act as normal SSRM's when in ECM range, but I'm sure they will get to that. Remember this is the first phase of Electronic warfare.

Also, how does ECM stop long range weapons? Direct fire is still in effect. Really ECM made scouting useful again, as before a mech with BAP and the sensor mod could pick up mechs 1.2k out, Which killed scouting. There was no sneaking up on people, ever. They just ignored ya, to bad effect on themselfs.

Oh also, another TT deviation, LRMs locking on, not a TT thing. As LRMs are dumb fire in TT, I mean theres even Streak LRM's.. so.

Streaks don't fire like SRMs.... that's the whole point /facepalm.

IronEagle, on 22 December 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

just take it out ...

and fix hit detection, please. A game where you have to target small areas of a mech or fast lights
has to be precise. If this can be done with clientside hit detection only, than make it this way.
The cheater will hack your code anyway. Despite of server or clientside hit detection.

ECM is largely okay... seeing as LRMs are still being heavily used.

[Noth]

Kousagi, on 22 December 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

So could ECM by your own idea's be used as a balancing mechanic vs Free C3i systems? Cause think of how the game would be if we removed Target sharing from the game. It would have much the same effect as ECM no? Except that all mechs would basically have it. Now sure LRM boats would still be able to fire with LOS, Which they can do now with tag anyhow, but most of what people cry about ECM for would be no different. ECM killing off streaks is a acceptable thing I see too, Sure they need to code it so they act as normal SSRM's when in ECM range, but I'm sure they will get to that. Remember this is the first phase of Electronic warfare.

Also, how does ECM stop long range weapons? Direct fire is still in effect. Really ECM made scouting useful again, as before a mech with BAP and the sensor mod could pick up mechs 1.2k out, Which killed scouting. There was no sneaking up on people, ever. They just ignored ya, to bad effect on themselfs.

Oh also, another TT deviation, LRMs locking on, not a TT thing. As LRMs are dumb fire in TT, I mean theres even Streak LRM's.. so.

What? I snuck up on people while piloting slow mechs all the time before ECM. BAP doesn't work like previous MW games. Under my idea it would still be limited to certain mechs, and deny target sharing for those caught under the bubble, while denying the effects of various other electronics against the units under the bubble. It would also decrease the accuracy of missiles. The idea is to still make it an effort to sneak and flank people because it is way way too easy right now with ECM.

As for LRMs locking on, that is a throw back to all other MW game (which ECM was not as powerful in either). Further navel and lore are show that LRMs lock on.

GioAvanti, on 22 December 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

ECM is largely okay... seeing as LRMs are still being heavily used.

LRMs are being used heavily because a new LRM boat just came out and people using the DDCs have been playing the Stalkers. Once the newness wears off, we'll be back to virtually non existent LRMs like before. I've seen so many stalkers rendered near useless because of the presence of 1-2 ECMs even though they had mechs with TAG using them.

Edited by Noth, 22 December 2012 - 10:32 AM.

[Mechsniper]

the problem is direct fire weapons are broken due to net code and hit box issues. Ravens are running around virtually immune to everything shooting at them with thier lag shield and hit box holes. Just when you learn to core jenners circling you you find out that Gauss can go through the raven in certain areas and not even cause damage. It has been documented in the forum elsewhere. AC 20 going through and causing only grazing damage. there are a couple of easy balances that are not the real fix. Fixing the net code and hit box should be the #1 goal of the devs right now. If they can't then streaks need to hit regardless ofECM, and Artemis should cause LRM to negate ECM anyway as it is a direct line of sight system. L2P huh, back at you bro, you have no skill if you need magic mech skills to get your win. Keep it going devs, you have evened out a lot in the game, not all to my liking, but please get on top of these issues. The game is much less fun since ECM and the lag shield is a huge part.

Edited by Mechsniper, 22 December 2012 - 10:36 AM.

[Sarevos]

Noth, on 22 December 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

What? I snuck up on people while piloting slow mechs all the time before ECM. BAP doesn't work like previous MW games. Under my idea it would still be limited to certain mechs, and deny target sharing for those caught under the bubble, while denying the effects of various other electronics against the units under the bubble. It would also decrease the accuracy of missiles. The idea is to still make it an effort to sneak and flank people because it is way way too easy right now with ECM.

As for LRMs locking on, that is a throw back to all other MW game (which ECM was not as powerful in either). Further navel and lore are show that LRMs lock on.



LRMs are being used heavily because a new LRM boat just came out and people using the DDCs have been playing the Stalkers. Once the newness wears off, we'll be back to virtually non existent LRMs like before. I've seen so many stalkers rendered near useless because of the presence of 1-2 ECMs even though they had mechs with TAG using them.

LRM stalkers self tag and use artemis most of the time since you need los for the lrms you may as well just do close support

and as i said before technically we should ALL be able to run passive or even disable sensors and drop our detection range... Idk if you want that

[Noth]

Sarevos, on 22 December 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

LRM stalkers self tag and use artemis most of the time since you need los for the lrms you may as well just do close support

and as i said before technically we should ALL be able to run passive or even disable sensors and drop our detection range... Idk if you want that

Yes they self TAG, but it doesn't take much to drop that TAG even for an instant to break lock and render the volley moot as you step into cover.

Technically ECM has Null signature built into it so if it is going to keep the null signature it should come with the downsides of the null signature system

[OldGrayDonkey]

I have to admit that I haven't played an awful lot with the new system. From what I have seen though, I very much like the improvement that ECM brings to the game. It makes you think a little more about where you are in relation to your squadmates, which is great for the game. It makes the game a little less god-mode, where you can target everyone all over the map. The battles I've been in, being in my lowly centurion, are much more survivable now, whereas before I would just get slammed from across the map. Now I can use the ECM equipped mechs for some shielding besides terrain.

If you have trouble shooting lagshielded mechs, try learning a little about bearing rate. Save your shots when they are either coming at you or away from you, not running side to side. If they turn, and most do at some point, then engage your lasers. I know the netcode has some effect for some people, but every targeting system has difficulty tracking a high bearing rate target. You should be no different. It's not just learn to aim, it's learn to keep the target in a low bearing rate condition.

[Mechsniper]

Why should you need tag for LRMS if you have Artemis?????? And AGAIN noob, I core plenty of jenners/cicadas/Commandos. The hit box is f'd on the raven.

Edited by Mechsniper, 22 December 2012 - 10:42 AM.

[Sarevos]

Mechsniper, on 22 December 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

Why should you need tag for LRMS if you have Artemis?????? And AGAIN noob, I core plenty of jenners/cicadas/Commandos. The hit box is f'd on the raven.

.....I sincerely cannot argue that point as i'd prefer artemis to allow you to paint a location and have the lrms hit Javelin style...

Edited by Sarevos, 22 December 2012 - 10:46 AM.

[Aurias]

paladin yst, on 22 December 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

Ive been in matches where our last cicada/raven killed 2-3 enemy assaults and wins the game. Not that I`m complaining about winning, Ive also been on the losing team where 2-4 our the mechs cant kill an ecm'ed light.

Yeah, I was doing this in my 3L since before ECM was even announced. Mmm, delicious anecdotal evidence.

The only thing that sucks is the netcode and collisions.

[Sarevos]

Noth, on 22 December 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

Yes they self TAG, but it doesn't take much to drop that TAG even for an instant to break lock and render the volley moot as you step into cover.

Technically ECM has Null signature built into it so if it is going to keep the null signature it should come with the downsides of the null signature system

I dont tend to fire at people about to run behind a building slow movers go first why am I wasting munitions on a scout?

also I'm not that inaccurate and tagged target stays tagged for 1.5-2 seconds so you just have to sweep him and i dont fire from cover when i lrm i tend to fight from behind my team

Edited by Sarevos, 22 December 2012 - 10:51 AM.

[Noth]

Sarevos, on 22 December 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

I dont tend to fire at people about to run behind a building slow movers go first why am I wasting munitions on a scout?

In my slow Stalker, I can still get behind a cover before taking a full barrage from an LRM even if I get a late start on moving. Often I have LRMs completely miss my stalker because I broke the TAG. All your sentence shows is that people have gotten lazy when dealing with LRMs.

Edited by Noth, 22 December 2012 - 10:51 AM.

[So who took Pilot Name as a name]

ECM could be a little heavier and/or... take more space. That'd be making a team more inclinded to defend those who'd make the sacrifice to carry an ECM (which would be fewer than now, given the new burdening stats it would be added). Not to mention that if TAG would TAG at ~1000M, now that would be a little more useful than walking up to someone's face and tag them... I can't believe it was at lower than 750M right now, but hey maybe I shouldn't be complaining about that! I never experienced how it was before.

[Sarevos]

Noth, on 22 December 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

In my slow Stalker, I can still get behind a cover before taking a full barrage from an LRM even if I get a late start on moving. Often I have LRMs completely miss my stalker because I broke the TAG. All your sentence shows is that people have gotten lazy when dealing with LRMs.

ok so my point is you still have to play the cover game against lrms i just cannot fire and forget anymore i have to stare at you for the duration like i would in my sniper or laser boat

[Noth]

Sarevos, on 22 December 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

ok so my point is you still have to play the cover game against lrms i just cannot fire and forget anymore i have to stare at you for the duration like i would in my sniper or laser boat

You could never fire and forget before, you had to maintain lock. With a sniper or laser boat you'd also be more effective at direct fire support due to pin point damage and simply firing and moving instead of having to maintain lock the entire time.

Edited by Noth, 22 December 2012 - 10:57 AM.

[Sarevos]

So who took Pilot Name as a name, on 22 December 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

ECM could be a little heavier and/or... take more space. That'd be making a team more inclinded to defend those who'd make the sacrifice to carry an ECM (which would be fewer than now, given the new burdening stats it would be added). Not to mention that if TAG would TAG at ~1000M, now that would be a little more useful than walking up to someone's face and tag them... I can't believe it was at lower than 750M right now, but hey maybe I shouldn't be complaining about that! I never experienced how it was before.

people would give up the stealth and counter just to have it focus on breaking missile locks from what ive seen

Noth, on 22 December 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

You could never fire and forget before, you had to maintain lock. With a sniper or laser boat you'd also be more effective at direct fire support due to pin point damage and simply firing and moving instead of having to maintain lock the entire time.

From behind a wall... I never even had to come out of cover that was boring as hell dont tell me it was ever difficult thats the least fun ive had in this game if i had a scout with atleast 2 firing neurons spotting

[Ivanzypher]

ECM doesn't really bother me. My main mech uses LRMs too. If an ECM mech is giving you trouble just use your backup weapons(you do have some Mlas on your mech right?) to take him out. Job done. The only people who should be whining about ECM are streakboats and pure LRM boats, both of which are stupid builds anyway. Boating one weapon shouldn't be a viable build, and now the two main culprits for it are buggered. I could see maybe increasing the weight(3 tons maybe?) to represent the fact that it has the effects of several TT pieces of gear, and to make it less of a no brainer.

Also, when the netcode is fixed, all those pesky ECM lights will get blown to pieces, leaving us with only the Atlas D-DC to worry about, and it's not really hard to focus fire one assault down between a whole team.

In short, ECM is fine. And no, I don't drive an ECM mech. My main is a near stock Stalker 3F.