150 replies to this topic

[Dendrobium]

I've had 2 games where we won by points but, the only reason is that we legged the last enemy mech so that we could win by points.

[Mahpsy]

I say if people want to make the points a little more important, slap on some calliope turrets. That should give some incentive to capture the points more.

[Monkeystador]

conquest just sucks like it is because the map's are tiny. On bigger maps the gameplay would certainly change.

[Zero Neutral]

Quote

How many rounds have you played? I suspect not a lot if your 'bootyhole still tightens' from baby meta strats in 8v8s.

Enough to have made the determination that PUG behavior is not indicative of the strategies required to win against organized groups.

...and that respawns are not required/will not be added.

[shotokan5]

I honestly did not know till reading this that their was a real difference between the two. I have yet to see the enemy take your capital and lose. all that is capture the flag with more flags and guns. please look at the game 3025 play model and every game was important their was a reason to fight and win. It was never tiring because their was always something at stake. Check points or blow something up it all comes down to the same thing. perhaps when real teams are involved it will be more interesting. Me I just like driving mechs. But innerspere warfare would be the most interesting and have a point.

[xRaeder]

Zero Neutral, on 23 December 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

Enough to have made the determination that PUG behavior is not indicative of the strategies required to win against organized groups.

...and that respawns are not required/will not be added.

8v8s don't matter folks. Most players aren't even playing in 4 man premades. Probably around 70% of people playing are in PUGs JUST LIKE IN ANY OTHER FIRST PERSON SHOOTER.

Stop trying to base your experience of the game off of premades. Just stop... you are giving the devs bad information that doesn't matter.

[Mawai]

Vermaxx, on 22 December 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

There's a big difference, but it USUALLY boils down to just another teamfrag.

I've been in a couple that came down to the wire on tickets, or where one team came back from the brink to almost win on kills and still lose on tickets. However, most games have just been one-sided slaughterfests like any other MWO match.

The slaughter is even worse because the mechanic encourages people to split into smaller groups. The team that doesn't do that usually crushes the one that does.

Unless everyone in light mechs ,,, the trick in Conquest is to disengage ... capture points and do NOT fight unless you are at an advantage. That is the real problem. Folks like to fight ... so they go for a 1:1 ... someone from the other team shows up and they are toast. If they are lucky someone from their own team shows up and the other guy is toast.

To do well in Conquest ... have only fast mechs 80kph or so+ .... Catapults, Dragons, Cicada and all lights. Send one team of 2 to capture bases ... fast raven and jenner team is good. The remaining 6 go cap another base. If you see 8 of the enemy use your speed to disengage unless you can catch one or two in which case shoot them down then disengage. Never go for an even fight. If your group of 6 catches one or two of the other team at a base try to shoot them down before they can run away.

If you play a Conquest like an Assault ... that is what it will be. Avoid the opposing main group ... pick off stragglers while capping and don't engage unless you have a 2:1 advantage ... then you will win more often than not.

[Zero Neutral]

It is good to know that at least some people think strategically.

[Daekar]

I've actually been enjoying conquest mode. Less camping, less assault-mech fest, more fun. Not a wash by any standard.

[Zero Neutral]

Quote

8v8s don't matter folks.

Balancing is usually never done around the PUG experience in any game that seeks to be taken seriously as a competitive game. Also, professional tournaments are never PUG games afaik...

Unless something is game breaking, it will not be possible to focus on the PUG experience other than to make sure that PUGin is an option and that the queueing system is as fair as possible. More attention will be paid to top level competitors which are not PUG, but are involved in team play.

tl:dr What you said was ddd. 8v8 or rather team vs team is where the major importance lies.

[Zero Neutral]

I forgot to mention, and keep in mind that this is an assumption, but I don't believe that the community warfare system will be designed for PUG play. I suggest finding a corps.

[Roadkill]

xRaeder, on 22 December 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

Better solution would... you know actually make the name "assault" mean something. Assault suggests an attack on a defensive position. This is not true. Why isn't there an attacker and defender?

Assault, to me, should really be a variation on King of the Hill. A single capture point in the middle of the map. Cap it to win, though it would need to cap more slowly than the current Assault bases cap. You'd want the central base to be the focus of the fight, not a cheap and easy way to win. (I.e., a team of 8 max-speed Jenners would not be able to cap the base before a team of 8 Atlases could get there to fight about it.)

[Soy]

Zero Neutral, on 23 December 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

Balancing is usually never done around the PUG experience in any game that seeks to be taken seriously as a competitive game. Also, professional tournaments are never PUG games afaik...

Unless something is game breaking, it will not be possible to focus on the PUG experience other than to make sure that PUGin is an option and that the queueing system is as fair as possible. More attention will be paid to top level competitors which are not PUG, but are involved in team play.

tl:dr What you said was ddd. 8v8 or rather team vs team is where the major importance lies.

Bro, no niche game with as small a community as MWO has, in its beta, is very competitive. There aren't thousands of pro gamers playing MWO. Sorry to say it...

...thusly, why would the main balance of the game be about 8v8s? Balance should be based around player retention [read: noobs] and the long end game balance should be based around community warfare [read: not implemented yet]. Heh...

Also - Chess is balanced around the pug experience. It's also balanced for end game because it's a complete game, unlike MWO. You're trying to be Garry Kasparov and there's only a few pawns on the board and you're playing against some random guy in Central Park stroking your epeen planning your 'next level' en passant. Get a grip.

8v8s are simply in right now to placate the nerds who think epeenery in a niche beta is some sort of Olympic event. It's the beginning of meta, not the pinnacle. Nobody showed up in this game knowing everything or doing everything, we'll see that in a few years time.

Edited by Soy, 23 December 2012 - 12:58 PM.

[Zero Neutral]

How wrong you are.

[Carnivoris]

I've had several games end on points. Stop crying. And, no, it ISN'T the same as assault. The battle is more spread out and dynamic. It's less meet each other in the middle and do your best and more strategically placing certain mechs on certain routes and scouting properly to see what points are being taken next. I've personally been enjoying the hell out of conquest. I don't even like playing assault anymore because it's always either a straight up base race or meet in the middle. That's it. There's no more diversity to assault mode than that. Conquest, on the other hand, is played all over the maps and, as such, makes the game that much more diverse and exciting.

If you want to cry about something, cry about something worthy of it. I love conquest mode and am glad we have it. We'll get more game modes in the future. Stop being a *****.

[Daekar]

You're both wrong, get off your high horses. The game needs to be balanced around BOTH. They are both important to a healthy gaming community and therefore both should be accounted for. Some people can't see beyond... well.

And for the record... 8v8 is still a joke. Give it time for CW and then it might mean something. Until then, all balancing is going, to be done with limitations to min/maxing in mind more than teamwork. The only reason at present for them to fiddle with anything involving teamwork is ECM. Once that is fixed, they can treat pugs and 8v8s the same for almost all practical purposes.... they both have min/maxers who game the system to win.

[Belkor]

Zero Neutral, on 23 December 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

Balancing is usually never done around the PUG experience in any game that seeks to be taken seriously as a competitive game. Also, professional tournaments are never PUG games afaik...

Unless something is game breaking, it will not be possible to focus on the PUG experience other than to make sure that PUGin is an option and that the queueing system is as fair as possible. More attention will be paid to top level competitors which are not PUG, but are involved in team play.

tl:dr What you said was ddd. 8v8 or rather team vs team is where the major importance lies.

There is a significant flaw in your argument. Not all game modes are required to be competitive for the game itself to be competitive. Take League of Legends for example where it has multiple game modes that are never played in competition. Catering to PUGs have led to the success of LoL and the result will be the same here too. Balancing a game mode to be fun for PUGs instead of the minority 8v8 premades is a formula for success.

Also you can claim "we aren't getting respawns" as many times as you want. But that is not up to you, now is it?

Edited by Belkor, 23 December 2012 - 01:28 PM.

[msqueak]

There is a big gap between Assault and Community Warfare. To me Conquest just a point in between. A place holder that does something. It gives us something new while laying out some ground work for Community Warfare. Currently winning means nothing beyond c-bills and xp, but in Community Warfare planets will be at stake. They can analyze what happens now to work out how not just Conquest works, but Community Warfare.

Edited by msqueak, 23 December 2012 - 01:54 PM.

[Zero Neutral]

Very good point, that game mode in LoL is currently unranked which lends itself to PUG play, however it is still balanced for team play.

I may not have laid out my point correctly, which is that the mechanics of the game are not balanced for a PUG experience but instead for a team play experience. This is also true for all game modes of LoL.

[msqueak]

While respawning is not in Conquest mode, I think they may have a form of it in Community Warfare as the Mech ready list.