533 replies to this topic

[BoomDog]

Barnaby Jones, on 29 December 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

You realize the ones complaining the loudest are the pug4lyfe crowd, dont you?

You realize they have every right to complain about fighting premades, don't you?

Even WoT realized how overpowered premade teams using voip in pug matches are. They limited it to 2 (3 if you have premium) on a 15 man team. Even then, there's teams pushing 70% win rates.

[LaserAngel]

Leimrey, on 29 December 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

Define "a goodly number of Kongs". You do know that Kong is pretty much a PUG which anyone can "join" and play with at the drop of a hat, right? We have guys that belong to one clan or another, but still play with Kong, because of how carefree our community is. And no, I've never seen many narcissistic people on Kong. Do not confuse trolling attempts and gold player antagonizing with ego stroking.

I happen to recall a few members that drop with us just because their "true" drop clan is just much worse than we are. Even if we are just a social/casual ragtag bunch of members without any real schedule. I know we have a good batch of people in Europe but the US is a good portion of our "membership".

I guess I will have to start wearing the Kong color/banner.

I too have my own drop group and voice server but they would rather play World of Tanks. I'd like to play Battlefield 3 for once at this point to add some variety.

[Corvus Antaka]

Ghogiel, on 29 December 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

People aren't playing 8mans, why? You tell me who is all about winning.

All the excuses put forth are lulz.

Takes too long to set up/get less games in> if it was about socializing and hanging with lads, not getting enough games in is a non issue right? Result, Back to pugstomping.

Tryhards everywhere in 8man> playing them is not fun because they are good. Back to pugstomping.

Min/max/ECM everywhere QQ> playing them is not fun. Back to pugstomping.

No rewards for extra effort, need better cbill farm. Back to pugstomping.

+1

Bad gameplay mechanics & ECM removing radar & locks leads to less strategy. less ability to LRM mechs huddled in a ... huddle.

I dont play mechwarrior to set up musket style firing lines/clusters, engage the enemy & then order "FIRE!" until 1 side is dead. but this is pretty much how mechwarrior online plays right now. There is very little tactical variety, staying as a group is the only tactic, and then it becomes "group sighted, "fire!" and the hope that their group loses more mechs before yours does, then you push on them, win, sometimes, lose.

ECM has nearly removed the already gimpy radar we had. why? who knows? it is not 3025 but 3049, and radar if every previous game is something to go by is vital to the good Mech experience.

Radar here is more just little blips, a lot less blips with ECM, and everyone just being more cautious. Add in gimped jumpjets, poor gamemode mechanics and some core issues with rock/paper/scissors weapon design plus the removal of indirect fire LRM's due to all this and you have the mess we have now.

active/passive radar. ECM cutting radar range. BAP increasing it. ECM doubling lock on times. Thats plenty easy right there, it worked great in mech3&4, and it added the dimension of radar and LRM support that other games lack. LRM's did not rule in previous mech games, nor would they here if properly implemented.

PGI clearly has their own concept of how mechwarrior should be played, and currently that concept primarily seems to involve no radar and direct fire weapons.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 29 December 2012 - 12:12 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ghogiel, on 29 December 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

People aren't playing 8mans, why? You tell me who is all about winning.

All the excuses put forth are lulz.

Takes too long to set up/get less games in> if it was about socializing and hanging with lads, not getting enough games in is a non issue right? Result, Back to pugstomping.

Tryhards everywhere in 8man> playing them is not fun because they are good. Back to pugstomping.

Min/max/ECM everywhere QQ> playing them is not fun. Back to pugstomping.

No rewards for extra effort, need better cbill farm. Back to pugstomping.



LOL has 3 accounts all for special purposes and pretends he isn't a try hard e peener.

You really need to go to troll school or something. No one who PUGs 75% or more of their matches gives a flying crap about stats. But hey, since you are just trying to make yourself feel better, keeeeeep trying.

I could try to explain logic to you, but it would simply be lost. But just for kicks, here is the short version, I run my main account, I get too many friends wanting to drop. So I end up doing that instead of pugging. I wnat to just do my own thing, no drama, I use other accounts. In fact, I started using other accounts at first to smash the whining theories of the Glod Badge envy brigade.

Take a free account, PUG only, and ZOMG... what is this? Succeed.

Something your pathetic trolling does not. But as I said, keep trying, either someday you will get good at it, or realize how pathetic your arguments are.

[Ghogiel]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 December 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

You really need to go to troll school or something. No one who PUGs 75% or more of their matches gives a flying crap about stats. But hey, since you are just trying to make yourself feel better, keeeeeep trying.

I could try to explain logic to you, but it would simply be lost. But just for kicks, here is the short version, I run my main account, I get too many friends wanting to drop. So I end up doing that instead of pugging. I wnat to just do my own thing, no drama, I use other accounts. In fact, I started using other accounts at first to smash the whining theories of the Glod Badge envy brigade.

Take a free account, PUG only, and ZOMG... what is this? Succeed.

Something your pathetic trolling does not. But as I said, keep trying, either someday you will get good at it, or realize how pathetic your arguments are.

Whatever. You're still one of the biggest diehards in this thread and you pretend not to be so as to use that to belittle others.

Edited by Ghogiel, 29 December 2012 - 12:20 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 December 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

You really need to go to troll school or something. No one who PUGs 75% or more of their matches gives a flying crap about stats. But hey, since you are just trying to make yourself feel better, keeeeeep trying.

I could try to explain logic to you, but it would simply be lost. But just for kicks, here is the short version, I run my main account, I get too many friends wanting to drop. So I end up doing that instead of pugging. I wnat to just do my own thing, no drama, I use other accounts. In fact, I started using other accounts at first to smash the whining theories of the Glod Badge envy brigade.

Take a free account, PUG only, and ZOMG... what is this? Succeed.

Something your pathetic trolling does not. But as I said, keep trying, either someday you will get good at it, or realize how pathetic your arguments are.

I keep imagining you speaking with Shadow's voice from sonic adventure 2.

[Josef Nader]

Roland, on 28 December 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

On one hand, you say you don't care as much about winning, and just want to play for fun...
But nothing about eight man games prevent this, unless you are afraid to lose.

Sounds like you want to be able to play poorly, but still win.

That isn't how competition works though.

I don't mind losing, but getting shut out every single round isn't any fun.

Yes, I want to be able to bring my "B" and "C" games and still do decently well. Hence, I don't play 8-mans, because 8-man groups require constant "A" game behavior in order to not get completely trounced. More often than not, I'd rather fill the coms with idle conversation about brightly colored cartoon horses than super serious radio chatter, and I like trying out builds and strategies that aren't "the best" super optimized flavor of the month. It's half the fun of Mechwarrior to me. So yeah, I don't want to be competitive, hence I steer clear of 8-man groups. That's why your 8 man queues are empty, because -most- players are like me. We don't want to be super-competitive all the time and we don't want to get rolled by folks who take the game way too seriously.

Edited by Josef Nader, 29 December 2012 - 12:22 PM.

[Choombatta]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 December 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

Actually, my apparently illiterate (or more likely,intentionally highly selective reading, and looking to instigate) friend, you would notice that most of those who find the current 8 man scenario boring, also don't sync drop. In fact, I PUG more than I 4 man or 8 man anymore, because I find Pugging more interesting now. (Funny how I am actually taking Lefty Lucy's old argument on this one, oh the irony).

Pug Stomps epitomize boring for anyone with any modicum of self esteem. 8 man ECM Warrior is a few notches LESS boring, since one is facing skill, but as an example, I was on with Steele's the other night for a short time, dropped 8 matches, won at least 7 (I disco'd before number 8 was finished, could have went either way, my bout with the stomach flu didn't really care) and TBH, was largely bored by the "Blob" tactics used to sin. Move as a group under ECM to counter their long range, have massive melee in between building. Wash, rinse and repeat.

If those were occasional examples, I would probably play it more. It sure isn't a win/loss thing (I lose a LOT more in PUG matches.... doesn't matter how good you are when it ends up you vs 6), it's a wow..... look it's a Re-Run... and the show wasn't all that interesting the first time.

Troll much?
Great, you do not sync drop or have fun sync dropping. Kudos to you sir!
To insinuate because you do not do it, that no one does it is quite a nice serving of false logic there, besides the fact you seem to presume you can speak for the "majority".

To those who do sync drop............
To claim you do it because 8 vs. 8 is boring is also a fallacy, since, as Mr. Steiner seems to agree, it would be less boring than PUG stomping.

[Barnaby Jones]

BoomDog, on 29 December 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

You realize they have every right to complain about fighting premades, don't you?

Even WoT realized how overpowered premade teams using voip in pug matches are. They limited it to 2 (3 if you have premium) on a 15 man team. Even then, there's teams pushing 70% win rates.

They have the right. The problem comes when they try and assert something in regards to how things should change based on no factual info. Just anecdotes and feelings. And when you ask for a suggested fix, they only offer one, and that ONE fix to an imagined problem (those damn facts arent gonna stop me from getting my way) has been showed time and again to o NOTHING but cause more additional problems than just dealing with the imaginary problem we have now. And what do you get in reply to pointing that out? You just want to puggstomp, you only care about stats, you suck at the game etc.

So, though they may have the right, it doesnt MAKE them right.

[Thorn Hallis]

Vassago Rain, on 29 December 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

I'm the Hulk Hogan of MWO, and just like Hulk Hogan, I'm loved and famed for the flexing, antics, and making up terms and words as I see fit.

So you are a has-been from the 80s?

[SlXSlXSlX]

@ barnaby

So becuse they cant prove it with stats, that we are forbidden access to, they are wrong? You say its an imagined problem, can we get a pie chart to back that up please?

Edited by SlXSlXSlX, 29 December 2012 - 12:42 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Choombatta, on 29 December 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

Troll much?
Great, you do not sync drop or have fun sync dropping. Kudos to you sir!
To insinuate because you do not do it, that no one does it is quite a nice serving of false logic there, besides the fact you seem to presume you can speak for the "majority".

To those who do sync drop............
To claim you do it because 8 vs. 8 is boring is also a fallacy, since, as Mr. Steiner seems to agree, it would be less boring than PUG stomping.

Actually, never once implied that because I don't do it, no one does. I did say those who do it, are pretty much scared of real competition though. I did, and do imply that Sync Drops are nto near as common as PUG-Nation wishes to believe. Most of the Pug losses I have suffered come squarely on the team I get not willing to be remotely organized, or doing utterly stupid things, not because we got rolled by 8 mans.

Believe it or not, most of the "Merc Regs" can recognize members of other units. Our community is not that large. But if you read the QQ-ing, EVERY PUG loss is an 8 man Sync Drop, and there are plenty of the self rightweous "we iz so skilld" brigade who feed that fire. My experiences, which is realistically all I can base it one (until PGI see fit to track it somehow) show that Sync Drops are WAY less common that the cries would leave you to believe.

Even a semi-talented 8 man will generally mop the floor with a PUG group in 2-3 minutes tops. (When the matchmaker has dropped my occasional 4 man with another, that is usually how long the fight takes, unless we are facing other premades). But, continue to fan the flames by cherry picking points, or whatever you feel you are doing.

Not dropping 8 man, because of the issues listed in other posts, I am fine with, but it doesn't justify PUG stomping either.

Vassago Rain, on 29 December 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

I keep imagining you speaking with Shadow's voice from sonic adventure 2.

now I'm gonna have to run out and get a voice modulator for team speak........

[Choombatta]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 December 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

Actually, never once implied that because I don't do it, no one does. I did say those who do it, are pretty much scared of real competition though. I did, and do imply that Sync Drops are nto near as common as PUG-Nation wishes to believe. Most of the Pug losses I have suffered come squarely on the team I get not willing to be remotely organized, or doing utterly stupid things, not because we got rolled by 8 mans.

Believe it or not, most of the "Merc Regs" can recognize members of other units. Our community is not that large. But if you read the QQ-ing, EVERY PUG loss is an 8 man Sync Drop, and there are plenty of the self rightweous "we iz so skilld" brigade who feed that fire. My experiences, which is realistically all I can base it one (until PGI see fit to track it somehow) show that Sync Drops are WAY less common that the cries would leave you to believe.

Even a semi-talented 8 man will generally mop the floor with a PUG group in 2-3 minutes tops. (When the matchmaker has dropped my occasional 4 man with another, that is usually how long the fight takes, unless we are facing other premades). But, continue to fan the flames by cherry picking points, or whatever you feel you are doing.

Not dropping 8 man, because of the issues listed in other posts, I am fine with, but it doesn't justify PUG stomping either.

So it appears you agree with me, and my original post. So why are you attacking me again if not a troll?

[The Exiled]

Ricktor Black, on 28 December 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

Honestly, I personally enjoy 8-man matches. I don't mind loosing, I don't care about my kill/death ratio, I don't even care about earning c-bills. I play this game because I love giant stompy mechs and I don't care if I get wiped out because I take it as a learning experience.

I love doing 8 man matches but how much fun is it when you hop in for your 3 matches of the night and just get destroyed every time?

The person who started this thread asked why more people aren't doing 8-man's and I gave one example why I (and the 15 or so people I play with) choose not to.

Some rather mixed comments there. All you are really saying is it is more fun to roll pugs in a premade 4 man group than it is to get rolled, clearly winning is important even if you 'claim' winning is not, otherwise you wouldn't mind losing those three straight games. You might even start to improve, something you wont do when you can sleep through the puggers and win.

You are not alone, most of those who rolled 8 man groups vs pugs are the same, you could go solo if your only interst was to fight some big robots and have fun, if you and those like you all did that fate would decide the outcome, but you don't want that so you team up to tip the odds to win. So less of the winnig isn't important BS becasue it is.

As for those that claim they do not 8 man becasue of the 6ddc/2raven build is so boring, i take it then none of you will be playing in CW when it goes live, after all when winning finally matters for someting other than a tiny bit more xp players are only going to bring the most competitive builds. If that changes due to new items or a patch it will be a different build but everyone will be running it, get used to it. At least now i see a lot of different builds in teams drops, very rare to see that claimed ECM heavy build, personally i thinik that is more an excuse than factual atm,

The truth is players are looking for a reason not to do 8 mans teams more than they are looking for a reason to play them, and there will always be enough excuses to find for why players are elite super skilled players but the game is just flawed and they can't shine with such a broken system, and those that do cheat or run cheese build which are below them

Edited by The Exiled, 29 December 2012 - 12:52 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Thorn Hallis, on 29 December 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

So you are a has-been from the 80s?

Hulk Hogan is a has-been in the style of Elvis.

[Bishop Steiner]

Choombatta, on 29 December 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

So it appears you agree with me, and my original post. So why are you attacking me again if not a troll?

why attack anyone in the first place (since none of my earlier posts were directed AT you, kinda hard to attack again), and then get upset when the favor is returned. You decided to deride me, I simply corrected your erroneous assumption, then returned the favor.

If you are going to throw stones, prepare to have em lobbed back. If you made an incorrect assumption, own up to it, "shake hands", and everyone moves on.

[Choombatta]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 December 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

Actually, my apparently illiterate (or more likely,intentionally highly selective reading, and looking to instigate) friend, you would notice that most of those who find the current 8 man scenario boring, also don't sync drop. In fact, I PUG more than I 4 man or 8 man anymore, because I find Pugging more interesting now. (Funny how I am actually taking Lefty Lucy's old argument on this one, oh the irony).

Pug Stomps epitomize boring for anyone with any modicum of self esteem. 8 man ECM Warrior is a few notches LESS boring, since one is facing skill, but as an example, I was on with Steele's the other night for a short time, dropped 8 matches, won at least 7 (I disco'd before number 8 was finished, could have went either way, my bout with the stomach flu didn't really care) and TBH, was largely bored by the "Blob" tactics used to sin. Move as a group under ECM to counter their long range, have massive melee in between building. Wash, rinse and repeat.

If those were occasional examples, I would probably play it more. It sure isn't a win/loss thing (I lose a LOT more in PUG matches.... doesn't matter how good you are when it ends up you vs 6), it's a wow..... look it's a Re-Run... and the show wasn't all that interesting the first time.

There ya go Mr. Steiner.
Your first post, that directly quoted me, after my initial post, that quoted no one.

Back peddle all you want, but you are trolling for sure.

[Tasorin]

Maybe if there was a Player Lobby and an actual match maker system with any semblence of tonnage or battle value balancing we could actually have a robust competitive 8 Man option.

[Barnaby Jones]

SlXSlXSlX, on 29 December 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

@ barnaby

So becuse they cant prove it with stats, that we are forbidden access to, they are wrong? You say its an imagined problem, can we get a pie chart to back that up please?

The burden of proof is on those who declare there is a problem that must be fixed "their way", not on those of us who say "quit exagerating".

[Zylo]

GaussDragon, on 29 December 2012 - 01:43 AM, said:

I've read this entire thread and my only comment is... where is the lobby? Instead of having all these issues with asymmetry in terms of the number of players and drop weights, let the players sort it out by choosing who (insta-ELO) they want to drop against, how many (instant-solver for 4, 8 or any sized groups) they want to match up against and at what weights they mutually choose.

This is a good idea for tournament play but with so many claiming that those avoiding 8vs8 are just trying to get easy kills doing sync-drops wouldn't those same sync-dropping players just join matches against the easiest teams to beat while avoiding any challenging teams?