89 replies to this topic

[GalaxyBluestar]

Davers, on 31 December 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

While i am not a Brony, even I have to admit that Friendship is Magic.

it sure ain't real back stabbers are everywhere!

[Erik Hollister]

Skinny Pete, on 31 December 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

So your complaint is, you don't want to use a tag, or your want to be able to go noob mode and play a streak cat.

No. (I really want to use an expletive here).

That is not the point of my rant at all... bro.

The POINT is that ECM in its current state makes no sense. Its functions are outside of what it should be able to do. This is what I think of your statement:

"Yeah, I understand that forks can fly now. So you want to go noob mode and not use a butterfly net to catch your fork... what a loser".

No (and I refrain from name-calling again), I want my fork to lay on the table like it should. In the same light, I want my ECM to function as it should, not have to use a work-around for something that utilizes FAULTY LOGIC.

Edited by Erik Hollister, 01 January 2013 - 07:54 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Erik Hollister, on 01 January 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

No. (I really want to use an expletive here).

That is not the point of my rant at all... bro.

The POINT is that ECM in its current state makes no sense. Its functions are outside of what it should be able to do. This is what I think of your statement:

"Yeah, I understand that forks can fly now. So you don't want to go noob mode and not use a butterfly net to catch your fork... what a loser".

No (and I refrain from name-calling again), I want my fork to lay on the table like it should. In the same light, I want my ECM to function as it should, not have to use a work-around for something that utilizes FAULTY LOGIC.

Giant robot fighting game.

[Erik Hollister]

HasHman, on 31 December 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

hey how about taking an ecm mech and couter it or are u sad u cant missle boat ppl to death?

Hey, how about you actually read the OP. No, as a matter of fact, I pilot Crusaders... so I DON'T LRM/SSRM people to death. What I WANT is for all the gadgets in the game to work logically, and ECM does not.

If ECM were available for my chassis, I'd most likely add it on, even though it doesn't make sense, just to remain competitive. If you want to talk about gameplay, I can do that (although that wasn't the point of the OP). So you are saying that everyone that doesn't like ECMs current abilities should pilot an ecm mech? What, one of the 4 mechs available? 4 out of what, 50+ mechs? That'll make the game so much better....

I notice that all the little spiteful ECM users aren't actually explaining why ECM functions logically.

[HC Harlequin]

http://mwomercs.com/...65-what-is-ecm/

[Teralitha]

Apparently your point is over everyone's head. but I get what your saying.

Radar sends out a signal, and bounces that signal back, creating a radar blip. The current ECM would not in any way affect this, unless that radar was inside the ECM bubble.... So technically... uh... yea.


I get it. Sorry all these other ... people cant seem to get it. (maybe they will now....)

Edited by Teralitha, 01 January 2013 - 07:49 AM.

[Kaspirikay]

GalaxyBluestar, on 31 December 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

it sure ain't real back stabbers are everywhere!

Backstabbing is magic.


Actually no, its a physical.

[Erik Hollister]

Vassago Rain, on 01 January 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

Giant robot fighting game.

I understand that its a Science Fiction based game, bro. But that's part of the point... it's SCIENCE fiction.. not MAGIC fiction.

Really, the one thing that would keep todays military from creating a mech (other than it wouldn't be effective) is an inability to power it. Engineers can already make walking robots, having one that is piloted isn't that big of a step. I just saw a program on discovery the other day that was about a company developing what is essentially a Nuero Helmet (less the HUD).

So, yeah, weaponized lasers, PPCs, fusion engines, etc.... aren't around at this point, but someday, they might be. Are mechs on the horizon? i don't see why they would be, but I guess they COULD be. Still, in an SF game, I don't see whats wrong with mixing in a little logic.

Edited by Erik Hollister, 01 January 2013 - 07:53 AM.

[Teralitha]

Because logic confuses most people... in case you couldnt tell from the responses.

Edited by Teralitha, 01 January 2013 - 07:53 AM.

[Draxes Warstar]

A search of ECM on google gives an excellent response to your question:

Quote

ECM is practiced by nearly all modern military units—land, sea or air. Aircraft, however, are the primary weapons in the ECM battle because they can "see" a larger patch of earth than a sea or land-based unit. When employed effectively, ECM can keep aircraft from being tracked by search radars, or targeted by surface-to-air missiles or air-to-air missiles. On aircraft ECM can take the form of an attachable underwing pod or could be embedded in the airframe. Fighter planes using a conventional electronically scanned antenna mount dedicated jamming pods instead or, in the case of the US, German, and Italian air forces, may rely on electronic warfare aircraft to carry them.

Whe I was on carriers, the EA-6B was equipped with two ECM pods that would jam radar systems and disrupt incoming weapon packages. They were sent in ahead of the main strikes that flew into Iraq and Kuwait during Desert Storm to keep the radar systems and SAM sites off the inbound Hornets, Cats, and Intruders. So in regards to ECM in game, it is WAI.

[Kousagi]

Funny thing is OP, that ECM really does work much like its real world counter parts. It might seem like magic to you because you don't understand it. Sure PGI can't program in all the tiny details of how real Electronic Warfare works, but they are doing the best they can while keeping it simple.

[Teralitha]

Draxes Warstar, on 01 January 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

A search of ECM on google gives an excellent response to your question:



Whe I was on carriers, the EA-6B was equipped with two ECM pods that would jam radar systems and disrupt incoming weapon packages. They were sent in ahead of the main strikes that flew into Iraq and Kuwait during Desert Storm to keep the radar systems and SAM sites off the inbound Hornets, Cats, and Intruders. So in regards to ECM in game, it is WAI.

Interesting... so your saying that the vessel that carried the ECm was otherwise useless in the actual battle other than just being there... and running ECM. Well in that case... all our ECM mechs cant carry weapons or fight in anyway if they carry ECM. They just run ahead of the team and... ECM... and get spotted and shot to death...

Gotta love real world electronics warfare...

Kousagi, on 01 January 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

Funny thing is OP, that ECM really does work much like its real world counter parts. It might seem like magic to you because you don't understand it. Sure PGI can't program in all the tiny details of how real Electronic Warfare works, but they are doing the best they can while keeping it simple.

No, they didnt keep it simple... they made it stupidly complex and over powered.

Edited by Teralitha, 01 January 2013 - 08:11 AM.

[SaltySarge]

ECM in the BattleTech universe projects a field of electronic interference at 180-meters from the BattleMech armed with it. In BattleTech all shooting actions are done with the aid of sensors and targeting computers. Sure some gunner skill is involved but without the sensor readout of the target is becomes difficult to accurately target. Think of BattleMechs like Submarine warfare with a view port. Sonar = Sensors. Subs/’Mechs have sensors aimed primarily forward and requires a direct line of sight to detect what is in front of them. ECM disrupts any targeting being conducted through or under the ECM umbrella.

Guardian ECM Suite: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Guardian_ECM

Exert from BattleTech TechManual, page 213

Spoiler

“Introduced: 2597 (Terran Hegemony)
Extinct: 2845 (Inner Sphere)
Recovered: 3045 (Capellan Confederation)
Around the end of the Reunification War, Johnston Industries (a Terran Hegemony company, working in partnership with Yelm Weapons of Fletcher) debuted the Guardian ECM suite on the newly deployed Nightshade VTOL. This broad-spectrum jamming and electronic countermeasure system revolutionized electronic warfare (EW). In a day when most communications and targeting systems had grown accustomed to a battlefield flooded by conventional electronic noise and counter-noise, the Guardian was powerful and smart enough to scramble all hostile electronics within a spherical “bubble” roughly 180 meters across. The Guardian could even adapt to and scatter contemporary EW packages like the Beagle Active Probe, Narc Missile Beacon and Artemis IV—all while simultaneously keeping friendly channels and targeting enhancers clear.
Even today, the Guardian’s recovered technology remains highly adaptable, not only capable of recognizing and countering the EW features of its Star League counterparts but also newer technologies such as the C3 and C3i systems. The Capellan Confederation has expanded on the Guardian’s utility with their new stealth armor system, a new role that will assure this powerful piece of technology a place on the battlefield for the foreseeable future. Predictably, the refined (and name-brand free) Clan version of the Guardian achieves the same effects with a third less weight and half as much bulk. Though the technology was largely in decline for a time among Kerensky’s children, their return to the Inner Sphere and the growing preponderance of EW systems has prompted more and more Clan machines to hit the field armed with ECM systems.”

To answer some of your questions, communications are not disrupted as we are not forced to use in-game voice channels. It works fine. It forces players to think outside of the box to counter and work together.

To answer the rest of your questions:

SaltySarge, on 23 December 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

I feel that the player base is still very much thinking that this is a Call-of-Duty with 'Mechs game. It isn't. If anything it is an America's Army with 'Mechs. One life per round; make your choices wisely.

Original Post:

Erik Hollister, on 31 December 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

I REALLY would like someone to explain to me why ECM has all the superpowers that it does. Seriously, how does it work? Its abilities have been well documented by rant after rant, but I'm talking about how PRECISELY would ECM work in the context of the battletech world?

So this 1.5ton device emits a field that extends a couple hundred meters out. The name Electronic Counter Measures leads one to believe that it COUNTERS ELECTRONICS inside of its range.

So, please explain the following...

How does it effect the targeting system of a mech outside its broadcast range?

How does it effect the electronics of the enemy mechs and yet leave the friendly mechs completely unscathed?

If its targeting electronics, why do our communications still function... aren't they solid-state:) ?

I'm sure many of you can add questions such as these that shed more light on this ridiculous piece of equipment. In short, this item SHOULD NOT FUNCTION THE WAY IT DOES.

I have no problem leaving ECM in the game, but fix it. If it’s on, it should affect EVERYONE in its range.

A mech outside the range of the ECM should still be able to lock on, BUT LRMs/SSRMS should be affected once they enter the field, lessening their effectiveness. A guided missile grouping should scatter somewhat once it enters the field, showering the area with explosives, hitting enemy, friend, and landscape with impunity. It should NOT affect the ability to target... we have laser targeting NOW... is that lostech?

SO, leave it in the game, but make it realistic. As it is now, you might as well go ahead and introduce magic wands and unicorns to this mess.

[Erik Hollister]

Kousagi, on 01 January 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

Funny thing is OP, that ECM really does work much like its real world counter parts. It might seem like magic to you because you don't understand it. Sure PGI can't program in all the tiny details of how real Electronic Warfare works, but they are doing the best they can while keeping it simple.

Oh, I have a basic understanding of how ECM works TODAY. That isn't the point. The point is that PGI should be consistant. IF it is an "ecm bubble", then make it a bubble. If it is battlefield wide, describe it as such.

If it scrambles radio waves, that's fine. And I suppose that you could leave a narrow band that switched frequencies rapidly that the "home team" could use, leaving the radios ineffective on the other side.

So, radio jamming effects the function of enemy computers now? That I didn't know! Must be awesome to be able to use ECM to jam enemy computers over in the Middle East and wipe out everything that utilizes a computer. That's awesome! That, or it doesn't exist.

Assuming that this tech does NOT exist, why wouldn't radar work (unless the mechs are all stealth bombered out)? Why wouldn't automated laser targeting based upon visual interpretation (combat-cams for the win!) work? Why wouldn't targeting based upon heat signatures work?

TO my knowledge, and I could be wrong, it takes an EMP to knock out electronics... and it takes them ALL out (unless they are shielded somehow). I don't know if shielding is possible, but if it were, I'd have to think that (in the game) the engineers would shield all mech electronics.

This conversation is delving deeper than I had originally intended, but I like it. If anyone can help make the ECM make sense, please... fire away. I've not seen a post yet that does.

[Teralitha]

Here you go. http://mwomercs.com/...e/#entry1609022

Edited by Teralitha, 01 January 2013 - 08:30 AM.

[Erik Hollister]

Salty Sarge...

I appreciate your input, but I don't see how it relates to the OP? It doesn't interfere with our communications, this is true... but it SHOULD if it were affecting our electronics... unless we use those big cheerleader megaphones to yell at each other with. Maybe we each have a tin can and a shitload of string?

I appreciate the CoD reference, and I agree with you totally. Doesn't answer anything about ECM, though.

[Joseph Mallan]

Vassago Rain, on 01 January 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

Giant robot fighting game.

Where ECM does not block SSRM. By the rules. Angel ECM doesn't even block SSRMs just dumbs them down to standard SRMs. Yeah that fiction.

[Erik Hollister]

Teralitha, on 01 January 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

Here you go. http://mwomercs.com/...e/#entry1609022

I see ya working, here. Trying to fix gameplay is a good thing.

I guess what I'd truly like to see is for the dev team to get a firm idea about how ECM works and extrapolate what it does from there. They've turned it into a magic box with these abilites instead of thinking for a few minutes about how it functions. I'd just love to see a wee bit of logic applied.

[Gorith]

ECM is not a bad idea per say the problem is in it's ability to completely shutout Large portions of a mech or certain builds passively making it way to powerful. No ability, equipment, or module should hard counter anything passively. Take AMS for example it's supposed to be the counter for LRM fire it is passive but doesn't completely negate LRMs. Now we have ECM that does the role of another module many magnitudes better and still has other uses.

Something like this is alot better IMHO
When activated it lasts 10 seconds and then goes on a 45 second cool down and works exactly as it does now +blocks TAG. Then add in a restriction that mechs can only be effected by ECM once every 30 seconds (to prevent ECM spamming)

I understand thats a very gamy approach but it is much more balanced imho.

Edited by Gorith, 01 January 2013 - 09:09 AM.

[Felix]

if they want to make it 'realistic' then something THAT powerful (retardedly-so) then it should smack EVERYONE with the effects, including the mech carrying it and his friends who are close, unless it is in its secondary mode