89 replies to this topic

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

or this:
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1686012

[DocBach]

After reading the rulebooks, then reading the fluff descriptions on Sarna.net, I am absolutely in belief that the developers read the unofficial wiki for their source on how everything works in this game.

[Felix]

DocBach, on 01 January 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

After reading the rulebooks, then reading the fluff descriptions on Sarna.net, I am absolutely in belief that the developers read the unofficial wiki for their source on how everything works in this game.

With a very loose and incorrect understanding of some of the words involved

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Felix, on 01 January 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

With a very loose and incorrect understanding of some of the words involved

Quote

Guardian ECM:


Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.^[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming.

I dont see SRM

Quote

The Angel ECM Suite represents a great advance in ECM technology from the standard Guardian model. Within its 6 hex radius of effect, the Angel suite completely blocks the following systems on enemy units: Artemis IV, Artemis V, Beagle Active Probes, Bloodhound Active Probes and their Clan equivalents, C3 Master Computers and C3 Slaves, Streak Missile Launchers and Narc missile beacons. Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by the device, but they function as standard missiles.

Oh there it is, and pretty clear to me anyways

mind you angel isnt in the game for two years but still

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 01 January 2013 - 09:25 AM.

[Felix]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 01 January 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

I dont see SRM



Oh there it is, and pretty clear to me anyways

mind you angel isnt in the game for two years but still

So, just confirming that PGI are idiots? As that was the point of my post

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Felix, on 01 January 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

So, just confirming that PGI are idiots? As that was the point of my post

and to confirm they dont care about the timeline, no matter how hard the grognards and fanbois rage that "you cant do that, look at the timeline"

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 01 January 2013 - 09:29 AM.

[Frisk]

ECM needs to be adjusted. End of story.

[DocBach]

You know something great?

From the Sarna.net bible:

"First introduced in 2400 by the Terran Hegemony, Long Range Missiles are designed to engage the enemy at great distances at the expense of damage dealt. Adapted towards the profusion of electronic jamming on the battlefield and the effectiveness of current armor designs, these missiles are capable of indirect fire and disperse over a smaller area than Short Range Missiles. Inner Sphere LRM launchers achieve this range by firing at a ballistic launch angle, making them less accurate at close range. Clan LRM launchers do not suffer from this effect, in addition to being smaller and more compact, thanks to their technological advantage. LRMs are highly upgradable, able to fire a variety of warheads and benefit from devices such as Artemis IV FCS.[1]"

Maybe the reason why LRM's work in the rulebooks against ECM is that they've been adapted to electronic jamming.

Edited by DocBach, 01 January 2013 - 09:36 AM.

[New Breed]

it just does way too much for how many slots/weight it has

something has to give, it cannot stay the way it is.

[Kousagi]

Erik Hollister, on 01 January 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

Oh, I have a basic understanding of how ECM works TODAY. That isn't the point. The point is that PGI should be consistant. IF it is an "ecm bubble", then make it a bubble. If it is battlefield wide, describe it as such.

If it scrambles radio waves, that's fine. And I suppose that you could leave a narrow band that switched frequencies rapidly that the "home team" could use, leaving the radios ineffective on the other side.

So, radio jamming effects the function of enemy computers now? That I didn't know! Must be awesome to be able to use ECM to jam enemy computers over in the Middle East and wipe out everything that utilizes a computer. That's awesome! That, or it doesn't exist.

Assuming that this tech does NOT exist, why wouldn't radar work (unless the mechs are all stealth bombered out)? Why wouldn't automated laser targeting based upon visual interpretation (combat-cams for the win!) work? Why wouldn't targeting based upon heat signatures work?

TO my knowledge, and I could be wrong, it takes an EMP to knock out electronics... and it takes them ALL out (unless they are shielded somehow). I don't know if shielding is possible, but if it were, I'd have to think that (in the game) the engineers would shield all mech electronics.

This conversation is delving deeper than I had originally intended, but I like it. If anyone can help make the ECM make sense, please... fire away. I've not seen a post yet that does.

As you say, you have a very basic idea of how it works. Yes a ECM today may very well have a "bubble" of 100% protection. Its what we call the effective range of the EW system, That how ever does not mean that it is its max range. Radio waves work just like every other thing in the world that moves. It loses power over distance, So ya, 180m might be the effective range but its power could well extend 1,000+ meters out, at demising power the farther from the 180m mark. So really, MWO is keeping it super simple in the fact that most of its jamming stuff does not even effect you till 180m where it should be messing ya up well before then.

For keeping comms open on friendlys, it would be easiest to keep some freq's for personal use clear, Or just tell the system to not jam them freq's. Not too hard.

Never said that jamming effects any computers in BT. It does how ever effect Radar, which uses RF, which is what EW jams... Not hard to figure out. Though! Something not used in BT but can be with current EW, is that if enough power is pushed through the air it can fry anything that can pick on that freq. They did tests on this with wireless cards in desktop computers. They pretty much roasted a whole room of test ones in varying degrees.

For radar not to work vs a EW suite is not that hard. Theres Lots and lots of different systems used to defeat radar, or just confuse it. Its not a magical as you might think.

The other sensor types, well, no clue what to say there. Its not a EW thing, thermal is thermal, and image is image. They are not in the EW spectrum of warfare. Though I know that in BT Heatseeker missiles are not used cause they suck at tracking mechs, or so the lore says, which one might find odd since mechs heat up so much, but thats what the lore says so.

EMP is a whole different thing then EW. I personally don't know much about it. never really cared too much about it. Though I do know you can shield systems from EMP, but they are kinda a one shot deal. Since they get fried in the process.

I could go in to huge detail on how EW stuff works, Was part of my job in the Army, but I don't feel like writing that much. There might be some good sites out there explaining wave theory.

[DocBach]

The difference between real life and the Battletech universe is that with a couple of lines of fluff certain pieces of equipment are invulnerable to the laws of realism, or even common sense in some cases.

The line "Adapted towards the profusion of electronic jamming on the battlefield" insinuates that without a detailed description of how, LRM's just do manage to function normally in the presence of ECM.

[Draxes Warstar]

To add to Kousagi's statements, the Cockpit of the EA-6B is inlaid with gold shielding to protect the crew. Why? The ecm pods it uses send out highly powerful microwave signals, which is how it is able to disrupt incoming missile guidance and radar systems on ground units. I would imagine that if they really tried to enhance the energy level, it could possibly do damage to computer systems, ie wireless network systems and computer electronics. How this would translate into BT I'm not so sure of. However, if it has those capabilities in real world applications, then it would surely be useable in the BT Universe.

[Erik Hollister]

Kousagi, on 01 January 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

So really, MWO is keeping it super simple in the fact that most of its jamming stuff does not even effect you till 180m where it should be messing ya up well before then.

Huh, I must be playing a different game. In the one I've been playing, its jamming battlefield wide. I want to play the game you've been playing in which PGI has it right. Must be great fun!!!

[Ashnod]

Bump and like this thread for a more reasonable ECM and streak SRM!

http://mwomercs.com/...nd-ecm-changes/

[Erik Hollister]

Draxes Warstar, on 01 January 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

To add to Kousagi's statements, the Cockpit of the EA-6B is inlaid with gold shielding to protect the crew. Why? The ecm pods it uses send out highly powerful microwave signals, which is how it is able to disrupt incoming missile guidance and radar systems on ground units. I would imagine that if they really tried to enhance the energy level, it could possibly do damage to computer systems, ie wireless network systems and computer electronics. How this would translate into BT I'm not so sure of. However, if it has those capabilities in real world applications, then it would surely be useable in the BT Universe.

This is spooky information. I guess they'd need a significant power source to be able to fry enemy electronics or they'd be doing it now. Imagine being able to set the enemy back 50+ years on the battlefield... pretty powerful stuff. Thank you for the info.

[Red squirrel]

In before it got locked

[Solis Obscuri]

Ashnod, on 03 January 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

Bump and like this thread for a more reasonable ECM and streak SRM!

http://mwomercs.com/...nd-ecm-changes/

Yeah but that would make sense instead of encouraging exploiting so....

[Davers]

I had originally responded early in the thread in a not serious manner because, well, another ECM thread? Really?

But seriously, it sounds like the OP wants ECM to be bad for both teams, and especially for the mech that carries it. So basically, it's just another 'Let's get rid of ECM' argument wrapped up with some nice tech talk.

[Erik Hollister]

Davers, on 03 January 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

I had originally responded early in the thread in a not serious manner because, well, another ECM thread? Really?

But seriously, it sounds like the OP wants ECM to be bad for both teams, and especially for the mech that carries it. So basically, it's just another 'Let's get rid of ECM' argument wrapped up with some nice tech talk.

Actually, no, I don't want to get rid of ECM, but thanks for nothing. I had hoped that people would actually think about what ECM SHOULD do and not what it DOES.

If it jams electronics, then it SHOULD jam it for both sides. If it leaves one side unscathed, that suggests the techs on that side have figured out a way to counter it... which further suggests that the enemy techs should be able to figure the same thing.

SO, basically, to use your phrasing, you are just another "I like ECM as it is and won't listen to any legitimate suggestions on how to improve it for everyone involved" guy. If you don't have anything constructive to add, feel free to troll elsewhere.

[Felix]

Erik Hollister, on 01 January 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

No. (I really want to use an expletive here).

That is not the point of my rant at all... bro.

The POINT is that ECM in its current state makes no sense. Its functions are outside of what it should be able to do. This is what I think of your statement:

"Yeah, I understand that forks can fly now. So you want to go noob mode and not use a butterfly net to catch your fork... what a loser".

No (and I refrain from name-calling again), I want my fork to lay on the table like it should. In the same light, I want my ECM to function as it should, not have to use a work-around for something that utilizes FAULTY LOGIC.

Buddy, you have to realize, most of your audience here is too stupid to use cover to avoid missiles, so they need ECM so they can bumble about in the open without worry.

They share this trait with the developers at PGI.