209 replies to this topic

[Haniwa]

i prefer normal laser over pulse or pc until the netcode is fixed /knockdown back in. Its impossible to hit fast mechs.

[Craftyman]

Pr8Dator, on 02 January 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

600+ damage with the second highest damage in the whole game second only to a Stalker LRM boat is cherry picking? Gosh...

Cherry picking a game is posting a single game you did well in as valid proof for your argument. considering a Stalker LRM boat did well (on frozen city nonetheless) I'd say you stomped them pretty hard. The math doesn't lie.

Look, I get it if you're doing it for fun (heck I'm kinda interested in it myself) but the fact is that they are inferior to all other energy weapons except FLAMERS and maybe small pulse lasers.

[Pr8Dator]

Craftyman, on 02 January 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

Cherry picking a game is posting a single game you did well in as valid proof for your argument. considering a Stalker LRM boat did well (on frozen city nonetheless) I'd say you stomped them pretty hard. The math doesn't lie.

Look, I get it if you're doing it for fun (heck I'm kinda interested in it myself) but the fact is that they are inferior to all other energy weapons except FLAMERS and maybe small pulse lasers.

That I won't disagree... definitely not my go-to config hehehe (furthermore, I think I would also have pretty much the same result with my quad large laser Flame. Guess I am just trying to get you guys interested enough to give it a try at least since there's nothing new to do until the next patch)

p/s qouted post edited with extra comments.

Edited by Pr8Dator, 02 January 2013 - 07:11 AM.

[Apoc1138]

Craftyman, on 02 January 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

Cherry picking a game is posting a single game you did well in as valid proof for your argument. considering a Stalker LRM boat did well (on frozen city nonetheless) I'd say you stomped them pretty hard. The math doesn't lie.

Look, I get it if you're doing it for fun (heck I'm kinda interested in it myself) but the fact is that they are inferior to all other energy weapons except FLAMERS and maybe small pulse lasers.

LMAO... I've seen some of the "math" being bandied about on this forum, and it does lie, like the worst kind of politician.

you are suggesting a match where each player on each team got roughly the same amount of damage and was 8-4 is a "hard stomp" and that a stalker can't get more than 600 damage unless it is a stomp?

in my LRM stalker I rarely get LESS than 600, sometimes up to 1200, often around 1000... if anything I'd say the stalker had a bad match to only get 650 and the dragon had an excellent match to get a similar amount

used well, pulse weapons do have their uses, the trick for people is to try regular and pulse to see what suits them better

Edited by Apoc1138, 02 January 2013 - 07:14 AM.

[Buckminster]

Don't trust the math when looking at these weapons. There are so many variables that come into play (movement, distance, heat, play style, etc.) that the "math" just doesn't give the answers. Sure, the LPL does more damage over a shorter time frame, and has a higher theoretical DPS than the LL. Sure, the PPC has a faster recycle than the LPL and LL and has a higher theoretical DPS. But these numbers are generated in a sterile environment, and don't take anything into account.

I hate lasers because you need to keep your target in sight for a full second to do max damage, and a skilled pilot will be moving and torso twisting to spread that damage out. A PPC puts 10 points at a single location instantly, and for me that is always a better option.

[SkyCake]

Talrich, on 01 January 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

My experience differs. Great range, huge damage at once, and no running out of ammo? Sure, you have to avoid close up fights, or shooting so much that you overhead, but my PPC builds often do fine on the scoreboard for kills and damage, especially in long games.

It did take some experimentation before I figured it out, but once I did, I'm happy with PPCs as is. If you can't get a PPC build to work initially, I suggest experimenting with chain fire before you give up on it and go back to lasers.

I could not, however, get ER PPCs to work since they're so hot, but the normal PPCs work wonders if your gameplay compensates for their limitations.

Best,

this is a pretty fair post... i have experienced everything in my 3ppc awesome a ppc mech can experience... the problem with this weapon is that it requires such a high skill / superior teamwork to use effectively... here's a list of things you have to master in order to get anything out of ppc's

1. keeping distance from target
2. staying close but not too close to your team
3. keeping los on target
4. moving the fight and keeping the fight in areas of the map which are partial to ppc (water on colony and city)
5. HEAT!!!!! cant shutdown once, or you're hooped!
6. getting teamates to understand the above concepts and helping you to apply them
7. getting teamates to consistently keep lights off of you and to understand target prioiritization
8. denying the brawl, which means speed and team coordination of position
9. picking your shots very very very carefully

now, if you can get all of that going for you, you are still only as good as your opponent in terms of weapons... that is, no advantage was gained for taking ppc's... and the kicker is, if you can achieve the above list, that in of itself would most likely give you a win, so in the case where you were able to make ppc's effective enough to get them competitive, you might have done just as well with small lasers... i find im never able to make a comeback with a ppc layout, where as my 3 LL, 3 SRM4, 84kph, AWS-9M can swing the tide fairly easily

the heat is not the only issue, the minimum is a total ****ing liability in what is essentially a brawler's game

[Sandslice]

Melegaunt, on 01 January 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

No, they're not following lore. Read the articles you linked to; PPCs, if they followed lore, would have a chance to deal damage to the firing mech when fired at a target within 90 meters.

That is an optional rule which involves overriding the PPC field inhibitor. Normally, there's no risk, only decreased accuracy.

[Vapor Trail]

Apoc1138, on 02 January 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

I gloriously look forward to it when Mustrum and Vapor Trail come on to the forums to whine that PPC's are OP with their lower heat and EMP effect... my 4 PPC atlas is already grinning at the prospect

I'll send you a PM when/if this situation actually happens.

I've got a design for a 2 PPC, 2 ERPPC Stalker that I've been running. Sure it CAN be run, and to good effect by a pretty good pilot, but doing so cuts down on the damage potential significantly. So I wind up progressing through a 6 Med Pulse with SRM backups... to a 4 SRM6, 6 Med Laser loadout that does a lot more damage.

I've been round and round on the same chassis with short and long range weapons loadouts so much I'm actually considering doubling up on the chassis so I can keep an eye on the effectiveness of the larger energy weapons while maintaining the short range loadout. I've single-salvoed lights and fast Centurions with just the SRMs (the Cents generally take it in the back at really close range, the lights usually just take a single massed volley anywhere). If I don't kill them with the SRM's hitting them with the energy backups generally removes a component or two.

I've run a 4 LPL version or the Stalker as well... and I gravitate right back to the same short range loadout because while the heavier laser loadout has one or two nice features, the rest of it is so sub-par I feel like a scrub for even trying to run it.

6 ERLL and 6 LL on a Stalker are doable, and I've tried... and gone back to the SRM/Med Lasers because of the increase in effectiveness.

Who knows, maybe it's the SRMs?

[Apoc1138]

that's absolutely fine, play what you like to
I prefer 4 large lasers with streaks (and tag)
or 5 medium lasers and a tag with LRM's on stalkers personally

Edited by Apoc1138, 02 January 2013 - 08:15 AM.

[HC Harlequin]

Haniwa, on 02 January 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

i prefer normal laser over pulse or pc until the netcode is fixed /knockdown back in. Its impossible to hit fast mechs.

Don't be that guy...

HC Harlequin, on 02 January 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

In other words, if you can't shoot
AND you can't shoot fast mechs
AND you whine a lot about how fast mechs are SOOOO OP
AND you are not using pulse lasers..

Then...

[CoolLew]

hehe, it is easy to see that everyone has their own opionions.

I only have two energy hard points on my new Atlas, and I am not very good at MWO. I usally find myself standing toe to toe with another assult (maybe with lights running circils around me).

So what would be my best choice as my only two energy weapons?

[SpiralRazor]

Here we go, in order.


Borderline bad,

worse

and terribad.

Thats the ranking for those systems compared to LL/Gauss/AC/2-5

[Buckminster]

SpiralRazor, on 02 January 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

Here we go, in order.


Borderline bad,

worse

and terribad.

Thats the ranking for those systems compared to LL/Gauss/AC/2-5

But if you are looking to fill energy hardpoints, only one of those weapons is an option. And frankly, I'll take an instant 10 damage over 9 damage spread out over a second.

Also, now that they've upped the projectile speed on PPCs and ERPPCs, they are *much* better choices.

[Trauglodyte]

Pr8Dator, on 02 January 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:

Seriously, I am a little concerned with the heat buff on the PPC/ERPPC as this game is already bordering on being PPC/LRM Warrior Online even without the buff. It is clear they are already very popular and people do know how to handle them the way they are right now.

It wouldn't be a concern if PGI were smart and put size limits on hard points. All you need to do is implement a Medium and Large classification and all will be right with the world. No 6 PPC absurdity, no Lrg Laser cheese. Just mechs doing what they were originally designed to do within the mandate on which they were built. In other words, enough room to be different but not so much to break the intent.

[Daekar]

I have had good games using all three of these weapons, but those games are usually accompanied by an increased percentage of bad games as compared to builds with LgLas or MedLas.

[SpiralRazor]

LPLs are bad, and if you can comprehend math and have access to the XML weapons data, you would see that.

They are bad because they are two extra tons then LL or ERL.

If they were 2/5 or 1 less heat, I may be on the same page, but as it stands now...bad, and baddies are the ones using them and trying to justify.


Its been stated that they cannot change the weight without messing up stock mechs with LPLs....so that being said, the only things to do are to play with the heat per damage ratio, beam duration or refire times.


LPL has a beam duration only .25 shorter then an LL...thats negligible. Your losing 150/300 of the effective range and the real stats come down to 2.12DPS/1.65HPS and 2.50DPS/2.25HPS.

Edited by SpiralRazor, 02 January 2013 - 03:12 PM.

[Grey Ghost]

Kaijin, on 01 January 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

The Gauss Rifle has a minimum range by canon, but not in MWO.

Yeah I think I'd rather have the 60m minimum range rather than the reduced Hitpoints as a negative.

[Soy]

SpiralRazor, on 02 January 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

LPLs are bad, and if you can comprehend math and have access to the XML weapons data, you would see that.

If you actually played the game instead of tinkering with your abbacus you'd see there are plenty of reasons why pulse weapons can be just as strong as regular lasers or any other weapon in the game.

Anyone arguing otherwise doesn't play the game enough to have done their homework on pulses.

Gettin sick and tired of all these numbers being thrown around by the very same people who completely ignore the actual reasons for using pulses.

[Pr8Dator]

Frankly, in the end of the day, I find that my combat results are fairly consistent with whatever build I use... I actually find that the only thing that determines combat outcome is the kind of team you drop with. Drop with a good team and you can own even with a single PPC. Drop with a lousy team and you can boat all your fav medium lasers and large lasers and you will still lose... end of discussion.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Davers, on 01 January 2013 - 09:19 PM, said:

Unfortunately unlimited ammo only becomes a benefit if the games last long. High heat is a much bigger disadvantage if the game only lasts 6 minutes.

hense you see ac2/ac5 and ultra ac5 boats ontop of ac20 cats gauss cat/cataphracts and dual lbx10s employed far more often than ppc/erppc boats. a lot more content and fixes are needed to get the energy/ballistics usage balanced in gameplay.

Grey Ghost, on 02 January 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

Yeah I think I'd rather have the 60m minimum range rather than the reduced Hitpoints as a negative.

i'd really love to see gauss get a minimum range. ac20's? why would you when gauss does the job better at all ranges, a ton or so is well worth it even though they're glass after armour's gone.