209 replies to this topic

[HC Harlequin]

The important bit is to understand the role each one plays.

If you have no problems with fast mechs and hitting fast mechs.. don't use a pulse. If you want to kill fast mechs then you have to use pulses.

If you only want to kill slow moving mechs then use normal lasers.

If you want to do a lot of snap shot/sniper converged damage then use PPC

[SpiralRazor]

Soy, on 02 January 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

If you actually played the game instead of tinkering with your abbacus you'd see there are plenty of reasons why pulse weapons can be just as strong as regular lasers or any other weapon in the game.

Anyone arguing otherwise doesn't play the game enough to have done their homework on pulses.

Gettin sick and tired of all these numbers being thrown around by the very same people who completely ignore the actual reasons for using pulses.

LOL....yep, thats right Soy sauce, Ive never played the game before...got it.

Tell me sir, can you name anyone thats been using Pulse lasers longer out of any of the CBTers? I imagine the people that were playing the first half hour are a pretty small pool.

Done my homework on pulses lol.....ignorance..

Edited by SpiralRazor, 02 January 2013 - 10:20 PM.

[Roadbuster]

Stavros Mueller, on 01 January 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

Most mechs shouldn't have too much problem adding some close range weapons for when they get up in your face.

While I agree with that I also have to say that if someone gets in your face, you're toast most of the time because these mechs usually run some heavy alpha strike short range weapons.

PPCs will get alot more love once they get their heat reduced.

[Ryolacap]

The large pulse laser is the best of the three, in short range brawler or the most effective of direct fire range <300m, might be the best brawing weapon of the game, but gets no love.

Full damge at short range
Applies damg to one area
10 damage means active crits
fires pretty fast
90% to hit weapon
no ammo
small crit frontage so high suvivability

Edited by Ryolacap, 03 January 2013 - 05:08 AM.

[Pr8Dator]

Ryolacap, on 03 January 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

The large pulse laser is the best of the three, in short range brawler or the most effective of direct fire range <300m, might be the best brawing weapon of the game, but gets no love.

Full damge at short range
Applies damg to one area
10 damage means active crits
fires pretty fast
90% to hit weapon
no ammo
small crit frontage so high suvivability

What does "active crits" and "crit frontage" mean???

[Buckminster]

I get what he means by "less crit frontage" - it's a smaller weapon than a PPC which means it's theoretically less likely to get hit once armor is penetrated.

But frankly, he's wrong on some of his points:
- An LPL only puts all of it's damage to one area if you can aim at that area for the full beam duration.
- An LPL doesn't "fire pretty fast", it's cooldown plus beam duration means that you have 4 seconds between shots. A PPC only has 3.
- "90% to hit" may be true, because you can sweep the weapon which means it's more likely to hit. But if that "hit" is only a quarter of a second, your 10 damage becomes more like 3.
- No energy weapon requires ammo. The LPL is no better than the PPC or ERPPC in this regard.
- ERPPCs do full damage at short range as well.
- ERPPCs and PPCs do 10 damage, only it's concentrated so it is more likely to penetrate a given area.

[HC Harlequin]

Pr8Dator, on 03 January 2013 - 05:48 AM, said:

What does "active crits" and "crit frontage" mean???

Every pulse has the chance to cause a crit. and if you stack it into a loc with a lot of other things then there is a lower chance to be critted out because it has a lower "frontage"

Buckminster, on 03 January 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

But frankly, he's wrong on some of his points:
- An LPL only puts all of it's damage to one area if you can aim at that area for the full beam duration.

Normal lasers you have to hold on target for a certain amount of time before it starts doing damage. a pulse does all of it's damage to the mech as long as you have the pulse on the mech.

Buckminster, on 03 January 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

- ERPPCs and PPCs do 10 damage, only it's concentrated so it is more likely to penetrate a given area.

but you only have one chance to crit, unlike a pulse or even a normal laser

SpiralRazor, on 02 January 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

LPLs are bad, and if you can comprehend math and have access to the XML weapons data, you would see that.

They are bad because they are two extra tons then LL or ERL.

If they were 2/5 or 1 less heat, I may be on the same page, but as it stands now...bad, and baddies are the ones using them and trying to justify.


Its been stated that they cannot change the weight without messing up stock mechs with LPLs....so that being said, the only things to do are to play with the heat per damage ratio, beam duration or refire times.


LPL has a beam duration only .25 shorter then an LL...thats negligible. Your losing 150/300 of the effective range and the real stats come down to 2.12DPS/1.65HPS and 2.50DPS/2.25HPS.

Pulses will always be better than their counterpart. That's the point of them.

[Buckminster]

HC Harlequin, on 03 January 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

Normal lasers you have to hold on target for a certain amount of time before it starts doing damage. a pulse does all of it's damage to the mech as long as you have the pulse on the mech.

You have me curious as to how lasers actually work. I know the theory is that the damage is spread out over time, but I wonder how it's calculated.

Do they break the beam up into 1 damage point segments - so that a LPL would do it's 10 damage in 10 x 0.075 second bursts, and a medium laser would do 5 x 0.2 second bursts?

Or do they break it up into something like .05 second ticks, and the amount of damage per tick varies, so that a LPL gets 15 'ticks' of .67 damage per tick, and a medium laser gets 20 'ticks' of .25 damage per tick? This would explain why medium lasers seem to need to be on target for a bit before they start doing damage - if it takes 4 'ticks' to equal one full point of damage.

[MustrumRidcully]

Pr8Dator, on 02 January 2013 - 03:24 AM, said:

As i said in a later post, what determines which is the better weapon to use has to do more with hardpoints than the weapon itself. All weapons are relevant. The more energy hardpoints you have, the better the lighter laser weapons and the lesser energy hardpoints you have, the better are the heavier laser weapons.

For instance, if you say ML is better. Now, if you only have 1 energy hardpoint with no tonnage concerns, which would you put on, ML or LPL? I'll take the LPL or ERPPC in this case anyday. Now, of cos that is only an example in isolation designed to illustrate the point. In reality, alot more factors need to be considered. As such, one should never make simplistic claims about what weapons are better than another except when criticizing flamers and MGs.

If you are forced to take a mech and fit that hard point at all, and can't make your weight full otherwise, yes, maybe you will need to take a LPL or a ER PPC.

But my advice is - don't get yourself forced into this situation. Take another mech. Just because it's the only that that you can still fit due to hard point, crit or slot concerns, doesn't mean it gets a solid choice.

You are in the end still engaging other mechs that may have found a way to avoid to take a weak weapon, which puts you at a disadvantage.

Apoc1138, on 02 January 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

I gloriously look forward to it when Mustrum and Vapor Trail come on to the forums to whine that PPC's are OP with their lower heat and EMP effect... my 4 PPC atlas is already grinning at the prospect

I am looking forward as that as well. But I don't expect it to happen.

But if it should, I can still point out that I wrote a thread several months ago whether we should worry about head shots or not, for example, that they might become to effective.

I just hope the next announced ASsault Mech is something that can carry a lot of ballistic weaopns in the mean time, because it seems likelier that will happen that the will have made PPCs worthwhile.

[mekabuser]

I like all three but I wanna talk about the lpl.
I had used it and liked it in CB but hadnt had a build for it since OB.
Ive been obsessed with killing lights for weeks now. It just ****** me off to no end the lag shield bs so I had been trying and trying with the srms. My cataphract build had a srm 6 and a 4 with artemis and I just couldnt hit the lights.. The warping, the lagshield, the FIRING DELAY all just made it impossible.
So.
I got rid of them and threw in a LPL...
Immediate Success!!!
Ill tell you what tho, its no wonder you cant hit the lights, half the time they are right in the x hairs and nothing. The beauty of the lpl is that you can scan forward or back on target till you actually ARE hitting the damn things.
let me tell you why its effective. Its not about killing the damn things , its about hitting them enough to discourage them from engaging you . So when they crest ridge x 400 m out zigzaging their way towards you , i dont expect to be ripping them up with the lpl, but if I can land a few shots, or a few pulses it seems to be enough to throw them off their game.
The difference in effectiveness countering lights between the lpl and 10 srms w artemis is very very large.
I have only 6 or 7 rounds in with this new build but it seems like I have something very nice,
lpl, ac10, erppc.

[Soy]

LPL in an arm is the best light swatter you could hope for in current state of game.

I don't know what else to say.

[a rabid chihuahua]

Kaijin, on 01 January 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

It's canon for the PPC to have a minimum range and for the ERPPC to have no minimum. You will find though that the Devs pick and choose when they will use canon and when they prefer not to. Example: The Gauss Rifle has a minimum range by canon, but not in MWO.

http://www.sarna.net...rojector_Cannon

http://www.sarna.net...rojector_Cannon

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Gauss_Rifle

http://www.sarna.net is your friend

I don't recall in cannon where there was a min. range on the gauss rifle. must have missed that somewhere,though it does show it in sarna stats.

Edited by Blane, 03 January 2013 - 08:37 PM.

[King Arthur IV]

i like the ppc cuz of the extra range compared to the LPL and less heat compared to the ERppc. min 90m range on ppc isnt all that bad if you have something for closer fights.

if your not comfitable with landing shots then stick to a LL. ~900m range, 7 heat and only 1 less damage is pretty good.

[SpiralRazor]

Ryolacap, on 03 January 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

The large pulse laser is the best of the three, in short range brawler or the most effective of direct fire range <300m, might be the best brawing weapon of the game, but gets no love.

Full damge at short range
Applies damg to one area
10 damage means active crits
fires pretty fast
90% to hit weapon
no ammo
small crit frontage so high suvivability

LOL>.....no idea what this dudes talking about, but hes obviously high as a kite when he wrote that.

LPL the best??? K....eat some oranges bro.

[SpiralRazor]

HC Harlequin, on 03 January 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

Every pulse has the chance to cause a crit. and if you stack it into a loc with a lot of other things then there is a lower chance to be critted out because it has a lower "frontage"


Normal lasers you have to hold on target for a certain amount of time before it starts doing damage. a pulse does all of it's damage to the mech as long as you have the pulse on the mech.


but you only have one chance to crit, unlike a pulse or even a normal laser


Pulses will always be better than their counterpart. That's the point of them.

no...no they will not. Standard lasers do damage at at least 50% range over pulse lasers, and standard lasers can be fired for a longer duration over the course of an engagement

Pulse weapons are, at best, a sidegrade.


And the LPL and ERPPC...are just terrible bad. Worse even then the SPL, which was nerfed into uselessness long ago.

[SpiralRazor]

King Arthur IV, on 03 January 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

i like the ppc cuz of the extra range compared to the LPL and less heat compared to the ERppc. min 90m range on ppc isnt all that bad if you have something for closer fights.

if your not comfitable with landing shots then stick to a LL. ~900m range, 7 heat and only 1 less damage is pretty good.

The only downside to the LL at 900 is i believe youre only doing 1 damage...and 900 the PPC should be doing 3 or 3.5, maybe 4.


The devs have never really explained how the fall off mechanic works for Energy/Ballistic...kinda criminal IMO in a SIM game.

All data like that should be available for people to make informed decisions with.

[HC Harlequin]

SpiralRazor, on 03 January 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

no...no they will not. Standard lasers do damage at at least 50% range over pulse lasers, and standard lasers can be fired for a longer duration over the course of an engagement

Pulse weapons are, at best, a sidegrade.


And the LPL and ERPPC...are just terrible bad. Worse even then the SPL, which was nerfed into uselessness long ago.

Well. as long as you aren't having to deal with lights and only attacking slow moving mechs then normal lasers have a better damage/heat efficiency. Sounds like you are saying the normal lasers are better than pulses. They aren't.. never will be. If you have infinite heat/tonnage/crits but you can only put one weapon into a hardpoint. go on. you choose. MPL or ML. SL or SPL. LL or LPL. Pulses have better damage over time. more crit chance, higher fire rates, higher overall damage, better tracking damage, higher convergence damage, etc etc etc.

[MustrumRidcully]

SpiralRazor, on 03 January 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

The only downside to the LL at 900 is i believe youre only doing 1 damage...and 900 the PPC should be doing 3 or 3.5, maybe 4.


The devs have never really explained how the fall off mechanic works for Energy/Ballistic...kinda criminal IMO in a SIM game.

All data like that should be available for people to make informed decisions with.

In the CLosed Beta there was a post explaining it was a simple, linear drop-off to 0 between normal range and the maximum range. Weapon Type was irrelevant for that (except for missiles, they don't have any drop-offs). The difference between energy and ballistic is only that the maximum range for a ballistic is set up 3 instead of two times its normal range.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 04 January 2013 - 03:06 AM.

[King Arthur IV]

SpiralRazor, on 03 January 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

The only downside to the LL at 900 is i believe youre only doing 1 damage...and 900 the PPC should be doing 3 or 3.5, maybe 4.

your not joking about this??? thats soooo sad!! so at 900 range and full duration, i only do 1 damage??? WTF!!!!!!

[Pr8Dator]

King Arthur IV, on 04 January 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

your not joking about this??? thats soooo sad!! so at 900 range and full duration, i only do 1 damage??? WTF!!!!!!

1 damage is all you need to get your kill assist when your teammate kills that guy ehheehe