140 replies to this topic

[N0V0CAIN]

Here I will reword the OPs post.

For all of you who think my mech sucks, see I can kill things. Even though I asked for improvements for my mech I am ignoring it. Someone apologize for saying bad things and I can move on.

[Noodlesoup]

GioAvanti, on 03 January 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

Honestly... it is rather stupid.
Why?

Pro: You get more damage (subjective.... btw due to heat and other load outs actually putting out more alpha dmg)
Pro: Better speed (last guy I talked to bragged he was going 65 kph with his xl engine)

Con: Major loss in durability (compounded by the mech's body)
Con: 6 critical slots lost (which are really needed for heat sinks)


Simply put: The pros you get are weak pros and the cons are nasty as hell.

also depends on how good you are at taking advantage of the pros and how much the cons impact your ability to execute. in this case, the increased speed allows me to keep up with the heavies (being left behind is a "bad thing") so this elevates the speed to a major pro. more damage is wrong, it allows more weapon diversity which makes the platform more flexible and therefore not a "one-trick-pony".

the loss in durability isn't as bad as most make it out to be. if i'm on the verge of losing a side torso, unless i get hit by someone with dead-eye aim and/or ambushed by bad luck, by the time i'm going to lose a torso, i'm about to lose the entire mech.

the 6 critical slots lost are offset by the 2-built-in-engine heatsink slots. break-even here.

[GioAvanti]

PaintedWolf, on 03 January 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

What you need to do is stop criticizing someone who is performing superbly. Obviously the "XL Engines are NEVER EVER a good idea on a Brawler EVER NO MATTER WHAT" arguments are wrong.

And it does not take --too-- much imagination to see why that would be.

1- The enemy does not know you have an XL. On a stalker they'll blow off your side anyway. So this is a myth.

2- Lose R-L Torso and 9/10 times you are ready to die anyways. This isn't true.... especially on a stalker. Wish I had some kind of survival time statistic... but trust me when I say good pilots have a hefty laugh when they find a stalker with an XL engine.

3- The extra-firepower/armor/speed are benefits that can outweigh the XL Engine being on the Brawler. I have more firepower and max armor.... how much additional speed is he really packing? 7 kph? 10 kph? That's not meaningful.

4- Brawler gets to the battlefield faster- and will soon Torso Twist faster to boot. Only slightly faster.....sadly this is your best arguement (and only on the second part) Getting to the battlefield faster by 7-10 kph is really pushing it in terms of a "good" design. If he pushed 85 kph... maybe you could make an arguement here.

5- Extra-Armor = less risk of an ammo explosion. What stalker is running around with less than max armor? Especially in the sides? This is probably the worst point you have. Since you're saying this *HELPS* your surviveability....... What????

6- Engine can crit sink to help avoid an ammo explosion. You can do this on standard engines also.... you show a general lack of knowledge here....

Also this is not a pure brawler- the Large Lasers make it so the Mech can ALSO fight at range. All these points might not mean much if presented by themselves without any evidence, but with the screen shots one should at least start to question the assumptions of this particular group.

Sorry sir you're wrong.... if you'd like I can go on the ngng server tonight and explain it to you (as a stalker pilot).... and your points in general show a lack of understanding.

In fact most of your points are bogus.....

PS - can't see my bolded comments in the quote:

1- The enemy does not know you have an XL. On a stalker they'll blow off your side anyway. So this is a myth.

2- Lose R-L Torso and 9/10 times you are ready to die anyways. This isn't true.... especially on a stalker. Wish I had some kind of survival time statistic... but trust me when I say good pilots have a hefty laugh when they find a stalker with an XL engine.

3- The extra-firepower/armor/speed are benefits that can outweigh the XL Engine being on the Brawler. I have more firepower and max armor.... how much additional speed is he really packing? 7 kph? 10 kph? That's not meaningful.

4- Brawler gets to the battlefield faster- and will soon Torso Twist faster to boot. Only slightly faster.....sadly this is your best arguement (and only on the second part) Getting to the battlefield faster by 7-10 kph is really pushing it in terms of a "good" design. If he pushed 85 kph... maybe you could make an arguement here.

5- Extra-Armor = less risk of an ammo explosion. What stalker is running around with less than max armor? Especially in the sides? This is probably the worst point you have. Since you're saying this *HELPS* your surviveability....... What????

6- Engine can crit sink to help avoid an ammo explosion. You can do this on standard engines also.... you show a general lack of knowledge here....

Edited by GioAvanti, 03 January 2013 - 02:12 PM.

[PaintedWolf]

Okay, can we accept the premise that this Mech is not purely a Brawler?

[Noodlesoup]

N0V0CAIN, on 03 January 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

Here I will reword the OPs post.

For all of you who think my mech sucks, see I can kill things. Even though I asked for improvements for my mech I am ignoring it. Someone apologize for saying bad things and I can move on.

lol, i'm not ignoring anyone, i'm just providing rebuttals for the "common knowledge" being spread around. there are a few improvements posted that are situational improvements to what my chassis is and i acknowledge them. the 6xML 4xSRM6 build is a better in-close brawler at the expense of range. and the std engine variant is more survivable but has fewer heatsinks and less speed as a tradeoff.

i've managed to also generate substantial discussion displaying the large variance in opinion that exists in people's minds as well as generate a few funny responses to my sarcasm. i consider this a win thread!

[PaintedWolf]

Also the Mech, from the screen shots posted clearly does what it is supposed to do. Which is do damage and kill things.

Now here come the Conspiracy Theories- OMG the other team all sucks each time. OMG your team-mates are setting it up to give you easy kills so they can earn more cash.

[Acenan]

I experemented a little with mye Stalker 3F and found out that if you place everything but the engine:

left arm 1x srm 6, 2x large lasers x1 DHS
left torso 1x srm 6, 2x DHS
right torso 1x srm 6, 2x DHS
right arm 1x srm 6, 2x large lasers

Tho only having 8 slots left you can still fit the XL 310 engine with two more DHSs taking your heat efficency to 0.97
i think its a bug cause if you remove any of the gear you can't fit it back inn, you need to remove the engine place the gear and put the engine back in. . . .

[PaintedWolf]

Noodlesoup, on 03 January 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

lol, i'm not ignoring anyone, i'm just providing rebuttals for the "common knowledge" being spread around. there are a few improvements posted that are situational improvements to what my chassis is and i acknowledge them. the 6xML 4xSRM6 build is a better in-close brawler at the expense of range. and the std engine variant is more survivable but has fewer heatsinks and less speed as a tradeoff.

i've managed to also generate substantial discussion displaying the large variance in opinion that exists in people's minds as well as generate a few funny responses to my sarcasm. i consider this a win thread!

Also I have not seen a single piece of constructive criticism. All I have seen is, from the very first post, vexatious rants.

Consider the effect-

1- I could choose, even if someone posts the worst Mech build in the world ever to put that person down and increase the player base.

2- I could just say something real nasty right away and maybe turn people off to the game and forums in general.

[Noodlesoup]

PaintedWolf, on 03 January 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

Okay, can we accept the premise that this Mech is not purely a Brawler?

who claimed it was?!

Acenan, on 03 January 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

I experemented a little with mye Stalker 3F and found out that if you place everything but the engine:

left arm 1x srm 6, 2x large lasers x1 DHS
left torso 1x srm 6, 2x DHS
right torso 1x srm 6, 2x DHS
right arm 1x srm 6, 2x large lasers

Tho only having 8 slots left you can still fit the XL 310 engine with two more DHSs taking your heat efficency to 0.97
i think its a bug cause if you remove any of the gear you can't fit it back inn, you need to remove the engine place the gear and put the engine back in. . . .

sounds like a bug!

[GioAvanti]

Noodlesoup, on 03 January 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

also depends on how good you are at taking advantage of the pros and how much the cons impact your ability to execute. in this case, the increased speed allows me to keep up with the heavies (being left behind is a "bad thing") so this elevates the speed to a major pro. more damage is wrong, it allows more weapon diversity which makes the platform more flexible and therefore not a "one-trick-pony".

the loss in durability isn't as bad as most make it out to be. if i'm on the verge of losing a side torso, unless i get hit by someone with dead-eye aim and/or ambushed by bad luck, by the time i'm going to lose a torso, i'm about to lose the entire mech.

the 6 critical slots lost are offset by the 2-built-in-engine heatsink slots. break-even here.

The loss in durability is pretty bad. You can tell logically because you're counting on a perfect outcome to justify the design choices...

I mean you are admitting you're counting on the other person not being as good as you and you not being hit in the side when you don't expect it.

Meanwhile - how much faster are you actually going here? With a standard engine you can easily get to 57-59 kph without much loss in weapons load.

Also - if my Stalker went up against yours - I can kill a side torso in 2 volleys.... your BEST case is that it takes me 3 volleys... so you have to be able to kill me while I shift my side.... with the added benefit that if I lose my side I'm still gtg.

[Noodlesoup]

GioAvanti, on 03 January 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

The loss in durability is pretty bad. You can tell logically because you're counting on a perfect outcome to justify the design choices...

I mean you are admitting you're counting on the other person not being as good as you and you not being hit in the side when you don't expect it.

Meanwhile - how much faster are you actually going here? With a standard engine you can easily get to 57-59 kph without much loss in weapons load.

Also - if my Stalker went up against yours - I can kill a side torso in 2 volleys.... your BEST case is that it takes me 3 volleys... so you have to be able to kill me while I shift my side.... with the added benefit that if I lose my side I'm still gtg.

fortunately this isn't a 1v1 dueling game. my stalker build is currently designed as a balanced support build with medium-long range fire support and close range bite. if i was to go and design a 1v1 build it would end up being a raven or a cicada or catapult with lots of short range weaponry and the ability to close quickly with the enemy.

[GioAvanti]

PaintedWolf, on 03 January 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

Also I have not seen a single piece of constructive criticism. All I have seen is, from the very first post, vexatious rants.

Consider the effect-

1- I could choose, even if someone posts the worst Mech build in the world ever to put that person down and increase the player base.

2- I could just say something real nasty right away and maybe turn people off to the game and forums in general.

Unfortunately (assuming there was a typo in 1) - saying something is a great idea when it isn't is a great way for a newbie to waste a lot of money only to find out the idea had a faulty premise and rage quit.

This guy's mech is a poor idea with good execution with likely bad opponents.

[BlacKcuD]

God, I love these forums. Thanks for the nice thread Noodlesoup

[Noodlesoup]

some days the forums are almost as entertaining as the game itself =D

[GioAvanti]

Noodlesoup, on 03 January 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

fortunately this isn't a 1v1 dueling game. my stalker build is currently designed as a balanced support build with medium-long range fire support and close range bite. if i was to go and design a 1v1 build it would end up being a raven or a cicada or catapult with lots of short range weaponry and the ability to close quickly with the enemy.

But your mech does worse in a multi mech situation.... why exactly isn't a stalker with a large amount of weapons NOT being dropped first?

Your best situation is a 1 on 1.... anything worse than that 2 on 2... 3 on 3... 2 on 3 etc you run the risk of someone getting several seconds on an injured side... then boom.

I guess I wish you could hear how my buddies and I play.... we see an assault we go for a side torso... its not like you get time to shift around usually.... We do it against Atlases too.... there are a lot of people who do the XL engine thing.... and it allows smart players to make quick work of you.

[One Medic Army]

Acenan, on 03 January 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

I experemented a little with mye Stalker 3F and found out that if you place everything but the engine:

left arm 1x srm 6, 2x large lasers x1 DHS
left torso 1x srm 6, 2x DHS
right torso 1x srm 6, 2x DHS
right arm 1x srm 6, 2x large lasers

Tho only having 8 slots left you can still fit the XL 310 engine with two more DHSs taking your heat efficency to 0.97
i think its a bug cause if you remove any of the gear you can't fit it back inn, you need to remove the engine place the gear and put the engine back in. . . .

Looks fine to me
Since the extra 2 DHS go into the engine there aren't any space issues.

[Noodlesoup]

GioAvanti, on 03 January 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

But your mech does worse in a multi mech situation.... why exactly isn't a stalker with a large amount of weapons NOT being dropped first?

Your best situation is a 1 on 1.... anything worse than that 2 on 2... 3 on 3... 2 on 3 etc you run the risk of someone getting several seconds on an injured side... then boom.

I guess I wish you could hear how my buddies and I play.... we see an assault we go for a side torso... its not like you get time to shift around usually.... We do it against Atlases too.... there are a lot of people who do the XL engine thing.... and it allows smart players to make quick work of you.

i'd love to see how you guys play. good teamwork is rare. i compensate by not being the one out in front. i do a lot of ninja-stalking and just plain avoid counter-fire until absolutely necessary that i go head to head, then i play for position to try and get the drop on my opponents. i know that in a head on fight with another assault i'm at a disadvantage so i try to ensure i have every other advantage before engaging by leveraging what the xl give me. more guns, longer range, faster movement.

[GioAvanti]

PaintedWolf, on 03 January 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

Also the Mech, from the screen shots posted clearly does what it is supposed to do. Which is do damage and kill things.

Now here come the Conspiracy Theories- OMG the other team all sucks each time. OMG your team-mates are setting it up to give you easy kills so they can earn more cash.

You'd also have to admit that screen shots don't exactly show the full story.

[Noodlesoup]

GioAvanti, on 03 January 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

You'd also have to admit that screen shots don't exactly show the full story.

well i don't run fraps so unfortunately i can't post a video, but you'll have to take my word for it that my aim was pretty surgical that round and i also maneuvered to take quite a few mechs from superior ground (behind/above/by surprise). and the other team wasn't exactly doing minimal amounts of damage.

[PaintedWolf]

GioAvanti, on 03 January 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

You'd also have to admit that screen shots don't exactly show the full story.

Sure that's possible- they can be taken out of context. Noodlesoup also admitted he or she plays different then most assaults- more like an ambush predator then a tank.

At the same time, I question the premise that an XL is always bad on a brawler. The Mech is extra vulnerable- but it is also faster. It can have more firepower. These can, if played a certain way, compensate for the loss of versatility.


The REAL downside is not that the Mech will be ineffective,

Edited by PaintedWolf, 03 January 2013 - 02:43 PM.