159 replies to this topic

[siLve00]

to state its hard as puger to earn stuff .... yes it is... 90% winratio in a 4men team or 25-40% winratio as puger is a huge cbill and xp difference... and those 2 things makes a difference.

yes there is a caddet bonus but it wont help if random pug player who are testing the game will be stomped 15 times out of 20 tries ?

how many will join a ts ? how many will quit ?

i still dont get all the rage about the whole stuff.... why premades and pugs dont work together as 1 community and trying to bring PGI to the fact that premade vs premade is the fairest way ?


2 vs 2 + pugs

4 vs 4 + pugs
6 vs 6 + pugs
and so on ?

the only reason.... serious the only reason why some1 dont want something like that is :
he wants to keep his high winratio by teaming up vs loners...

imo thats very very very weaksauce...

[Wraith05]

siLve00, on 05 January 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

to state its hard as puger to earn stuff .... yes it is... 90% winratio in a 4men team or 25-40% winratio as puger is a huge cbill and xp difference... and those 2 things makes a difference.

yes there is a caddet bonus but it wont help if random pug player who are testing the game will be stomped 15 times out of 20 tries ?

how many will join a ts ? how many will quit ?

i still dont get all the rage about the whole stuff.... why premades and pugs dont work together as 1 community and trying to bring PGI to the fact that premade vs premade is the fairest way ?


2 vs 2 + pugs

4 vs 4 + pugs
6 vs 6 + pugs
and so on ?

the only reason.... serious the only reason why some1 dont want something like that is :
he wants to keep his high winratio by teaming up vs loners...

imo thats very very very weaksauce...

If they can get the matchmaker to pair up groups like that I would be all for it. I just don't want to see groups that aren't 4 or 8 left out in the dust. So if I can make a 6 man group and still find a game regularly against different 6 man groups +pugs I'm all for it. I just feel some numbers (like a 6 or 7 man) will have hard time finding other 6 or 7 man groups.

edit: of course can't please everyone, so if 6 or 7 man groups are the only ones left out maybe it is the best solution.

Edited by Wraith05, 05 January 2013 - 10:06 AM.

[Bguk]

We all need to stop this argument once and for all as we all, no matter what you think, have no idea of the total amount of time premades are dropping against solos as there is no in game way to tell when there is a group together or not. I do blame the community as these threads only keep the fire burning. I am not burying my head in the sand and saying it doesn't happen, it does. Let's wait for phase 3 of the matchmaker to see how it all goes.

[siLve00]

Wraith05, on 05 January 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

If they can get the matchmaker to pair up groups like that I would be all for it. I just don't want to see groups that aren't 4 or 8 left out in the dust. So if I can make a 6 man group and still find a game regularly against different 6 man groups +pugs I'm all for it. I just feel some numbers (like a 6 or 7 man) will have hard time finding other 6 or 7 man groups.

i think thats more a point of the playerbase and the waiting que.....
as for me iam along anyways right now... i get that ppl want to play together.. 3 or 5 ...w/e... but to get it started and a growing community they should realy fix those fun breaking stuff...

disconnects + netcode and the grouping.

*note iam a TS user.. still i dont go to play with random players.. i rather lose and have fun on TS with my real friends who are playing other games... but thats me.. and there are plenty of ohter ppl and we dont have the playerbase to lose such ppl*

[Serapth]

Bguk, on 05 January 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

We all need to stop this argument once and for all as we all, no matter what you think, have no idea of the total amount of time premades are dropping against solos as there is no in game way to tell when there is a group together or not. I do blame the community as these threads only keep the fire burning. I am not burying my head in the sand and saying it doesn't happen, it does. Let's wait for phase 3 of the matchmaker to see how it all goes.

Problem is, this is our only outlet to let our displeasure ( or pleasure ) known to the developers. Being mute about it under represents it as a problem. If PGI see that a good chunk of the community is unhappy with the matchmaker logic ( both on the PuG and Premade side... at least when it comes to 8man groups ), they will hopefully make that a higher priority.

[Serapth]

siLve00, on 05 January 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

i think thats more a point of the playerbase and the waiting que.....
as for me iam along anyways right now... i get that ppl want to play together.. 3 or 5 ...w/e... but to get it started and a growing community they should realy fix those fun breaking stuff...

disconnects + netcode and the grouping.

*note iam a TS user.. still i dont go to play with random players.. i rather lose and have fun on TS with my real friends who are playing other games... but thats me.. and there are plenty of ohter ppl and we dont have the playerbase to lose such ppl*

In 100% honesty, I am not saying this to be a ****, just a bit of feedback, take it or leave it.

Your lack of use of mixed case makes your comments quite difficult to read. It takes about twice as much cognitive processing to parse what you are saying. I say this because, with the exception of completely ignoring capital letters, your posts are well written, have good grammar and contain good content. I just end up skim reading them though because of the additional effort it requires.

[Bguk]

Serapth, on 05 January 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

Problem is, this is our only outlet to let our displeasure ( or pleasure ) known to the developers. Being mute about it under represents it as a problem. If PGI see that a good chunk of the community is unhappy with the matchmaker logic ( both on the PuG and Premade side... at least when it comes to 8man groups ), they will hopefully make that a higher priority.

Oh I agree the forums are an outlet, but when there is already a timeline in place for changes to the matchmaker that will hopefully alleviate some of these issues, all this talk just becomes redundant. Why not wait until it's in before we burn down the castle? They already see it as an issue otherwise I would think we would be getting no updates at all to matchmaking.

[Serapth]

Bguk, on 05 January 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

Oh I agree the forums are an outlet, but when there is already a timeline in place for changes to the matchmaker that will hopefully alleviate some of these issues, all this talk just becomes redundant. Why not wait until it's in before we burn down the castle? They already see it as an issue otherwise I would think we would be getting no updates at all to matchmaking.

Is there anything on the roadmap about balancing premades vs pugs? So far as I knew, there were only ELO changes on the horizon.

ELO is not a solution to the problem at hand. Actually, it will probably make matters worse, as the matchmaker is going to have to take the premade groups composure into account when trying to pad out the remaining members. Either breaking matches even more, or making match time substantially longer.

If there is infact something in the roadmap about fixing the premade/pug discrepancy, I agree with you completely! Point me at it and I will let the topic drop completely until the changes are made.

[Mcguire]

Bguk, on 05 January 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

Oh I agree the forums are an outlet, but when there is already a timeline in place for changes to the matchmaker that will hopefully alleviate some of these issues, all this talk just becomes redundant. Why not wait until it's in before we burn down the castle? They already see it as an issue otherwise I would think we would be getting no updates at all to matchmaking.

Finally someone has hit the nail.. Pgi did develop a system and it is partially in use the real point is there are players/groups side stepping the system Pgi gave the player base the 8 vs 8 they requested and yet it isnt being used. the heart of the matter is getting those groups to want to play that other 8man, And i agree we need to discuss the issues on the forums in a respectable fashion and hope pgi gets it right in the 3rd phase.

[TheMadPoet]

I'm a PUG'er...with no friends that play MWO, and like to be able to just stop in, play a few matches, and then go do other things. I've been a long time casual fan of Battletech and Mechwarrior.

I have to say, it's just getting downright discouraging lately. Match after match of facing teams with two ECM atlases, and at least two ECM Scouts, that are obviously very coordinated in their movements and attack plans. Not EVERY match is this way...but I'd say at least 50% are, if not more.

I have no proof that they are premades (or half the opposing team is at least), and I don't ask. I don't ***** or whine in game, and I just do the best I can. However, this, combined with the new economy system (where capping is not a viable alternative), and it's growing more and more wearisome to even log in and play.

I'm not the best mech pilot, but I understand strategy and I try to do the things that can help a PUG win, like sticking together, focusing fire, harrassing lrm boats, calling out locations. It really just doesn't matter. We get eaten alive time and time again by ecm heavy, well-coordinated groups.

I used to spend some cash in this game, but I've stopped that altogether, as I'm not willing to invest any further in a game that is just plain frustrating. The Raven was the first mech model I mastered, and I do have an ECM version I could play every match to help even the odds with my PUG groups, but then I can't work on mastering other non-ECM mechs, and that too is frustrating.

Please...figure out a way to give us PUG-only matches or tone down ECM. I'm not an ECM hater...but things have gotten definitely more one-sided since it's inception.

[Remorse]

Serapth, on 04 January 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

I am not calling you a liar, but I can't imagine anyone that pugs regularly has a 50/50 win/loss ratio.

Now I dont really fall into your category as I never pug. Pugs are lapdogs that cater to raidleaders mercy. I dont. I play to win, not to make some teenagehitler happy. Now because of the unfinished game lacking everything about playing as a group I choose to drop only by pressing the launch button. I would also like to say sorry to all those that have tried to friend me in order to play in the same team as I. On my friendlist are only people that are my friends in real life too.

Prior to the 8mans my win/loss was about 11/12 and in the four days ensuing I hardly lost at all. Then as the first teams started mending their egos it went back to 11/12 for some time and now is tad over .5. I am good, not the best by far, but I know how to win. And yes, its not impossible to be around 50/50 even if you never join a premade. BUT be ready to be called a lot of things and mostly not nice.

Personally Im all for the non premade que. Its the only smart thing to do, but that alone wont be the answer. There are so many things that need fixing that maybe I need to start my own thread about them.

[Galenit]

TheMadPoet, on 05 January 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

Not EVERY match is this way...but I'd say at least 50% are, if not more.

Played on the first morning ( cet) of this year 40 games. Noted names, find 15 premades of 3-4 people (meet two times the same combination of 3 or 4 names).

40 games are 640 players, 60 of them were premades, seems the 10% premadeplayers are true on my observation (because i left out the 3 mans and rounded generously). But they influenced 65% of the games i played.

[Kraven Kor]

Sandslice, on 04 January 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

I don't think it's intentional. It's just an odd thought that when a 4 drops, the MM sometimes struggles to keep up with matching pugs to the entire group - and that short drops (8v7 etc) result from the MM's failure.

I've seen the same as the person in the 4-man - on both sides of the match. In other words, sometimes I'm in a 4-man, and our team ends up a mech light - no disconnects, just 7v8. Other times, it happens on the other team.

If there is a way for someone to do what you are worried over, I don't know of it, and you should report any instances you see of it... but for the love of all that is Battletech, can we try not to clog the support queue with cries of Wolf when there is no Wolf?

[One Medic Army]

Serapth, on 05 January 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Is there anything on the roadmap about balancing premades vs pugs? So far as I knew, there were only ELO changes on the horizon.

ELO is not a solution to the problem at hand. Actually, it will probably make matters worse, as the matchmaker is going to have to take the premade groups composure into account when trying to pad out the remaining members. Either breaking matches even more, or making match time substantially longer.

If there is infact something in the roadmap about fixing the premade/pug discrepancy, I agree with you completely! Point me at it and I will let the topic drop completely until the changes are made.

It's not in the roadmap directly, however there's a dev post elsewhere explaining that the ELO system will also ideally include various modifiers: modifiers for being grouped, and modifiers bases on the "asset value" of the mech used.

This above the fact that anyone who plays only premades will probably quickly elevate their ELO rating above that of most of the PUG players, and thus be matched against other people who do the same, or some of the very good PUG players who coordinate.

Edited by One Medic Army, 05 January 2013 - 12:45 PM.

[Screech]

People want to win they do not want competition. I think this game might have been better served as a Co-Op like Left 4 Dead or such.

[Lykaon]

Galenit, on 05 January 2013 - 02:15 AM, said:

My first mech was a raven 3l (pre ecm mastered it) and i hope they will nerf it a little bit. Dont like it that every one and her grandmother riding it now. Dont like the fotw(fotm) players. They would ride a publictoilet if it is fotm, in german we call this people wendehälse. I play it in 1 of 20 matches now, or less. Its no fun to see lots of "pilots" legfucking or runningthrough with it and i dont want be one of them. But the funniest think is, look on the why play something other then jenner or raven is sucking threads and you will see a lot of people posting in this threads about there überjenner now driving ravens.

And the cheesy groupbuilds you will discover in puggames too. Ever played with 8 pugs against 2 3L and 2 ddc premades? Or the great skillfull 4x emc light premades?

Basic math:
The team without a premade looses about 90% against the team with a premade.

You want to play with your friends?
Go on comstar, fill your ranks and go 8 man.

Dont farm pugs and justify it by donating a victory to the ones randomly on your side.

----
Loosing is no problem, one of the best games this year for me were:
Me and a teammate left, 3 enemys, we where fighting on uppercity base. We kill 2 enemys, then my teamate dies. 1 enemy and me left, both torso only, both 1 or 2 weapons left. He got a better hit then me, i die.
But it was a lot more fun then the normal stomps when premades are involved.

If there is a pugs vs pug game, you have it more often that 2-3 mechs of each side left and fighting it out.
Its more fun for me than stupid stomping, but everyone have its on definition of fun.

Are you people deaf illiterate or ignorant?

Even though I want to play 8 mans there are to few playing to make it worth the time.

How many eight man games would you play if it took more time searching for a match than playing in one?

You complain about 4 mechs with ECM? really? I wish 8 mans had this problem.

Try 8 mechs with ECM all Atlas DDCs.That is how incredibly boring the 8 mans are.Honestly the problem is 50% ECM 50% no drop limits.

I would have no problem with one or the other but the combination is tediously dull after waiting in que that is also tediously dull.

It is practally mandatory to drive an Atlas DDC in an 8 man and that is tedious.

So essentially Puggies get to run a campaign of deflamatory rumor milling because they can't handle losing to anyone!

I'm done beating around the bush on this topic.

The complainers simply stink at mechwarrior.I have played in matches with them seen them with my own eyes and read thier end of match stats.They simply suck at mechwarrior and want a free ride.

They are getting a free ride now from 4 mans who win matches dispite having to be handycaped with there immence suckage.

These people are so delusional that they honestly believe it's someone else's fault for thier complete lack of basic coordination needed to play a video game.

Folks it does not take super leet skill to play this game passibly I know of at least one 11 year old that hands you your arses regularly.Given time I could find 4 preschoolers that can beat the average crybaby puggie. You stink that badly for real.


Don't even just take my word on this folks.

Look at the end of match score and remember the names of players that performed so unbelievably poorly that it's mind blowing.look for them again and see that they are consistantly this bad.Then search the forums for the user name and see how many are complaining about premades.

I challenge you to make an independant study of it and you will draw the same conclusions I have.

Suck players are complaining about their sucking by blaming anything and everything but thier own sucking.

[Serapth]

Give it up with the "Everyone that disagrees with me or plays differently than me sucks at the game" BS... it's old and makes you look simple, elitist, immature or all of the above.

Tell me something... what the hell do PuGs not want to play against premades have to do with 8man being all Atlases? SWEET F ALL. The fact certain mechs are better for the min/maxers, 8 mans is dominated by minmaxers and there are no weight limits has NOTHING to do with PuGs not liking to be forced to play at a disadvantage.


As to the final score... if you are coordinating with 3 buddies, your score should be SIGNIFICANTLY higher than random pugs, especially if you act like the typical premade group and completely fail to communicate with the other members in your group ( which by the disdain you show, I assume you do ), or worse, you probably hang back and let the others on your team soften the enemy up before you bother doing anything.

Edited by Serapth, 05 January 2013 - 03:06 PM.

[Suicidal Idiot]

Serapth, on 04 January 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

If I want a super specialized game and am willing to wait for others that want to join, damnit I should be able to. Then you could do things like say... PuG only matches. No ECM matches. Etc... The more specifics you add, the longer you will wait of course, but if what you want is actually popular with the community, your wait wont be long at all.

If there were "No ECM" matches, I don't think you'd have to wait long for a group.

[Galenit]

Lykaon, on 05 January 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

You complain about 4 mechs with ECM? really? I wish 8 mans had this problem.

Try 8 mechs with ECM all Atlas DDCs.That is how incredibly boring the 8 mans are.Honestly the problem is 50% ECM 50% no drop limits.

I would have no problem with one or the other but the combination is tediously dull after waiting in que that is also tediously dull.

It is practally mandatory to drive an Atlas DDC in an 8 man and that is tedious.

You dont want to min/max and adapt to win in 8 mans, so you can go to premade vs pugs.
But what should the pugs do if they dont want to play with premades?

And say me, would you play this game furthermore, if you where forced to play 2/3 of your games against your beloved 8ddc groups?

Your personal attacks dont count as argument, they only show that you have no real arguments and no discussion culture.
Seems that we have different claims on life, i seek my challenges in reallife, virtual games dont pay my food. Gaming is for fun and relaxing ,but i know that some poor people have nothing other then their virtual "skillz". Mostly they live from my taxes ...

Edited by Galenit, 05 January 2013 - 04:13 PM.

[Herodes]

Quote

You have all the tools you need to be successful. Watch your mini-maps, work together with your team mates.

No, I do not have the tools. If I am not on voice com ... I do not have a working in-game chat, I do not have a working command option that issues commands, paints targets etc.. I do not have a mini-map as there is ECM. Once the fight starts I am basically alone and not able to coordinate as opposed to groups on voice-com. That is not a problem per se but it explains why PUGs often fail badly I think.
This is why I'd like to see some implementation of a command structure where an experienced player can guide us PUGs with his superior knowledge and I'd like some usable commiunications in addition to TS which I cannot and will not use. Pre-Installed messages on function keys like "Nedd help at coordinates" in addition to a usable text box and some audio alarm ringing with every new message posted would be something I'd like.

Quote

These people are so delusional that they honestly believe it's someone else's fault for thier complete lack of basic coordination needed to play a video game.

Folks it does not take super leet skill to play this game passibly I know of at least one 11 year old that hands you your arses regularly.Given time I could find 4 preschoolers that can beat the average crybaby puggie. You stink that badly for real.


Suck players are complaining about their sucking by blaming anything and everything but thier own sucking.

I guess you are right. I for example lack the skill and coordination younger humans do have or can easily acquire. Given the fact that I am 40+ years, have a job and a family and thus not much play time doesn't help either. So yes, I do suck at the game.

However, I do think you are wrong in your conclusions. I can only speak for myself, but I would like an environment where I can play against Mechwarriors of my own size and quality and just have a good time. I am not competetive and never will be, but I want to have fun in a game I love since 20+ years.
Me having fun is the key to make me spend money. Which I do have and am willing to spend for a game I like. Even though I suck at it.
SO I guess I am entitled to voice an opinion of me wanting tools to be able to have a better gaming experience and to have a match maker that groups me against other poor players. This has nothing to do with whinging about how evil premades are. I know you are all better than I am. I just want to have my share of good time, too, and not only act as cannon fodder.

Also, I would like to be addressed in a more civil manner, but that might be too much to be asked on the interwebz.

Edited by Herodes, 05 January 2013 - 06:14 PM.