159 replies to this topic

[Galenit]

Boris The Spider, on 05 January 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

No Galenit, you do what you want. It was alway the stated intention in the Dev Blogs from day one for lone wolf players to make up the numbers for groups.

They do: xp, cbills, win/loss are all make up through pugstomping. (Cant resist to missunderstood you. )

Just want a fair game, near 50 win/loss if possible.
Dont know if it is possible to tailor elo to weight groupsizes against pugplayers, personal performance, battlevalue, mechweights, mechclasses (l,m,h,a) and ecm. They need to test it, but i worry it will drive a lot of new players away. For me, i mostly play between 12 and 16 cet, there is a lot more fun then in the nights. Lot less of premades, not so much 3-4x ecm premades, ...

[Boris The Spider]

And I too want a fair game, just one where, like in all other online games people have the capacity to talk to eachother. That is all I lobby for, but you insist that I just want easy mode. The only reason I use Teamspeak is because the capabiltiy to talk to my team has been an accepted part of my online play experience for the last decade. Once it is included in game I will play only using the ingame VOIP with other members of my house who are grouped together by the game client. This will obiously include people who don't want to use VOIP for whatever reason, but like in all the other online games I play I can live with that.

We just have to have patience, wait for ELO, wait for community warfare and wait for ingame VOIP and lobby. Once these are in the game... which we know they will be, then we can talk about how to balance the game better, but trying to balance without these included yet is jumping the gun.

[RabidWombat]

Boris The Spider, on 05 January 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

RabidWombat, for the minute we have to be content to use the free teamspeak servers provided by the community. PGI will surely implement in game VOIP at some point in the future. This and a lobby will most definatley be required once community warfare goes live as the current random drop system will fall down once we are all split amongs various houses. Once the tools exist in the game it should be as easy to join a lance as it is to join a squad in a battlefield game, once it is, that is how most people will play the game.

Alright. Well I just hit that magic point where I'm getting about c30k per match, and basically stuck playing the one mech I managed to purchase. Not interested in playing 30-40 rolled-over matches to save up enough to try a different build, so I guess I'm one of those people leaving.

Edit: Wanted to add that I think the game, in-game, is g-o-r-g-e-o-u-s. Everything I ever wanted in a mech game; too bad the wrapper around it is everything I hate in an online multiplayer experience. That is why I'm leaving until things get worked out.

I'll check in again in a month or two to see if this community warfare thing you're talking about has been implemented and create a new account to recover from some noob c-bill spending. (Imagine that, a noob spending like a noob; trade-in value is effed in a game that's supposed to draw people in with the joys of customization.)

Cheers

Edited by RabidWombat, 05 January 2013 - 07:07 AM.

[Serapth]

FullMetalJackass, on 05 January 2013 - 06:49 AM, said:

Even without teamspeak it doesn't take much for PUGS to work together. A simple chat of go 3 line...focus on A,B etc. can make all the difference. Most PUG games I have been in the issue is a total lack of communication.

Yeah... you every actually tried that? I highly doubt it...

In the middle of combat, to chat you need to hit Y, then type your message. During this time, you are completely locked out from using the keyboard to do important things like... moving.

Now perhaps if they had a hotkey saying "attack my target", or frankly, if they had more advanced targeting then r, or the ability to "group target", then perhaps pugs would have a chance.

But again, this is just another in the missing feature column.

[Mcguire]

I wanted to clarify that at no point have I or will I disrespect premades or pugs, my only concern is to protect our future in this game that i truly enjoy. the thought i keep coming back to is if we can have 25 matches that give increased Xp C-bills why not have a trial vs trial for your first 25 matches with a warning after the 25 something like You will now be qued against possible groups or more experienced players. Also to point out that Pgi did hear and listen to the comunity on the 8man issue and that it didnt go as planned as those players for whatever there reasons came back into the anything under 8man cap like i said i play in groups of 3-4 myself and some solo play when friends are not on i have no issue with being beat by a pre made, only the ones that advertise there clan or group before during or after a match. all other issues so far have been valid ones and as i stated very passionate opinions i really want to thank everyone for not turning this into a flame thread.

[Boris The Spider]

Mcguire, on 05 January 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

why not have a trial vs trial for your first 25 matches with a warning after the 25 something like You will now be qued against possible groups or more experienced players.

Good idea in theory, however it would nececitate a constant supply of new players for the matchmaker, 16 new players at a time, say give the match maker about 30 seconds to find a game , if we assume a match is about 7 minutes long... some rough maths. Would need about 224 new players online at the same time for this to work, that isn't factoring in time spent AFK or mechlabbing. Like the solo queue idea, great in theory, but in practice the maths won't work, once player count goes up to 24 a match and map size goes up 3x (both in testing now afaik) it gets even worse.. Best case I can think of for new players is PVE training ground.

[Faldrin]

Boris The Spider, on 05 January 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

Good idea in theory, however it would nececitate a constant supply of new players for the matchmaker, 16 new players at a time, say give the match maker about 30 seconds to find a game , if we assume a match is about 7 minutes long... some rough maths. Would need about 224 new players online at the same time for this to work, that isn't factoring in time spent AFK or mechlabbing. Like the solo queue idea, great in theory, but in practice the maths won't work, once player count goes up to 24 a match and map size goes up 3x (both in testing now afaik) it gets even worse.. Best case I can think of for new players is PVE training ground.

Really I can say with hand on heart that the pug community is more than pre-made's in this game as the dev's even said "pugs only face pre-made's at most 10% of the time." So if they are 100% on this.
So the truth is pug's would be the ones best of by a lot if they bring in solo queue.
Really what they need to do is make a selection system that you can join up as a pug in a solo queue or join pre-made queue to pad the teams if you wish.

[Serapth]

Again, just have the matchmaker throw a premade on each side and voila, most of the problems are solved. Then newbies get balanced matches while watching experienced players win. In a way, the PuGers become king makers in this scenario, given two equally capable premade groups, the group with the best pugs should win... or the group with the premade that actually communicates with their pugs wins. Worst case scenario ( premade only has 3... or 2 ), is still better then 1 or 2 premades vs 8 pugs that we live with today.

[Rodder]

Boris The Spider, on 05 January 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

Best case I can think of for new players is PVE training ground.

It would help if we have something like ingame chat lobbys, LFG-channels to form up, rookie channels and maybe a tutoring system. This should be basic and one of the most important issues.

[Darth JarJar]

Serapth, on 04 January 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

Whats silly is this stupid argument, it comes up in EVERY pug thread.

Guess what, this team game has NO team aspects yet. The grouping is pathetic, the voip doesnt work, there is no lobby, no adhoc groups, just a half hearted friends list and the requirement to use a 3rd party chat solution.

This is not a team game, not yet. Once there is chat in game and pugs can communicate the same way premades can, perhaps your comment might have merit.



What you really mean to say is "I premade, like padding my stats, and therefore dont care about the rest of you. If you want to enjoy the game, play like I do".

And that is somehow different from saying, "I PUG, like playing by (with?) myself, and therefore don't care about the fact that this is a team game. Unless you are a lonewolf, you are doing it wrong."

[Boris The Spider]

Faldrin, on 05 January 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

Really I can say with hand on heart that the pug community is more than pre-made's in this game as the dev's even said "pugs only face pre-made's at most 10% of the time." So if they are 100% on this.
So the truth is pug's would be the ones best of by a lot if they bring in solo queue.
Really what they need to do is make a selection system that you can join up as a pug in a solo queue or join pre-made queue to pad the teams if you wish.

Not withstanding that the lone wolf comunity is only as big as it because of features that are not yet included in game. As I said on the previous page, a solo queue would make it nigh on impossible for a 3 man group to launch and difficult for two man groups.. hence maths not working. What would it do to 4 man groups ability to find matches when the matchmaker is trying to tonnage match 4 groups of 4. What happens once you apply ELO matchmaking to that, what happens when you split all the players into their respective houses so it has to find two 4 man Marik groups with the same tonnage as two 4 man Steiner groups? What happens once VOIP is included in game? What happens when teams go up to 12 a side? The solo queue, while it sounds great on paper is a short sighted idea with bad maths that does not factor in future features that PGI has promised to deliver over time.

[Mcguire]

Boris The Spider, on 05 January 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

Not withstanding that the lone wolf comunity is only as big as it because of features that are not yet included in game. As I said on the previous page, a solo queue would make it nigh on impossible for a 3 man group to launch and difficult for two man groups.. hence maths not working. What would it do to 4 man groups ability to find matches when the matchmaker is trying to tonnage match 4 groups of 4. What happens once you apply ELO matchmaking to that, what happens when you split all the players into their respective houses so it has to find two 4 man Marik groups with the same tonnage as two 4 man Steiner groups? What happens once VOIP is included in game? What happens when teams go up to 12 a side? The solo queue, while it sounds great on paper is a short sighted idea with bad maths that does not factor in future features that PGI has promised to deliver over time.

Its clear your math skills are good and vision is also good, i often find sometimes from my children that the short cited obvious answer is sometimes the correct answer in my Op the game is at a crossroads were we have the player base we have had since beta, heck ive played agaisnt alot of you and the new player base we want but isnt sticking around perhaps Pgi needs a radical short term solution to stop the bleeding then work on some of the larger issues at hand. Clearly a lobby and in game text based chat system would be great lfg or whatever you want to call it. in short having the guys who are trying to beat the system stop for a while and instead of farming the new players try and welcome them in give them tips if you see something that needs a kind word offer it

[Brut4ce]

Mcguire, on 04 January 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

I know this is a very sensitive subject and i would ask for no flamers on this one. heres the truth guys Pgi came out and set a limit on team size, the reason is because the really hard core wanted 8 vs 8 and the large premades were crushing the pugs problem solved, Not so now the hardcore guys say it takes to long to get a group or there all jenners Ecm atlas's or ravens and this isnt fun, ya i get it Guess there wernt so many hardcore premades out there hence the long wait. the reality i play other mmo's and as such i advertise to my friends and sometimes a general chat convo breaks out and games are discussed the #1 reason players site as not wanting to play mwo or playing it more then a couple times is the preception that the premades are crushing everyone and now back to the truth other threads talk about this game going the way of the dodo bird, well it may but you only have yourself to blame. we all have seen this Sync dropping premade 4mans hitting rdy at the same time. Guys/gals i really do enjoy this game have since early beta i play usually in a 3-4man myself but after reading some other threads today i just had to post. PGI is not the problem look in the mirror If you want it to be better make it better stop breaking the TOS theres nothing to be gained except maybe an 11.0 kill ratio or and ton of Xp you'll never use jeez its a game a nice one that has a super future if you'll let it.

SlXSlXSlX, on 04 January 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

If the premades farmed the community to death, and the servers had to be shut off.... even then... they still would not acknowledge it was their pub farming that caused it. They would point at PGI, before they pointed at themselves. As long as they have the mechanics available to stack teams, whatever they may be, they will. The mechanics need to be reviewed in light of this issue, in my humblest of opinions...

Ok, but looks like there's one thing everyone seems to ignore, no matter how many times its posted......

MANUAL MATCHMAKING WITH A PROPER LOBBY SYSTEM! FFS, i've written it before, and i'll write it again. SIMPLE things in games is what always made them GREAT, and the PEOPLE playing them made them OUTSTANDING! So with these said, as far as this game goes, having a lobby and manual matchmaking, PEOPLE could choose with Which PEOPLE they want to fight, what mechs and systems to use etc etc etc... And also have the option to quick launch in a pick up group randomly, if anyone wanted a quickie
Having these as the base, all others would magically fall into place, Community warfare BLAH BLAH BLAH....

'Nuff said

*cheers*

[Faldrin]

Ok Boris yes I understand where you are coming from and you are the kind of person its fun to debate with, but like a lot of pre-mades have said its this.

Why should the majority of the player base suffer for the vocal minority?
And yes they say it to us pugger's.

The thing is there is 3 or 4 of us that I know would still choose to fight pre-mades if the option was there but there really needs to be a solo queue + elo system in place and this will increase new players experience 10 fold. A lot of players would pick that option after a while as well once they feel they have got the hang of the game to find clans and units.

[Serapth]

von Bremerhaven, on 05 January 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

And that is somehow different from saying, "I PUG, like playing by (with?) myself, and therefore don't care about the fact that this is a team game. Unless you are a lonewolf, you are doing it wrong."

It's vastly different.

Now if you said "I PUG, dont want to have to run a 3rd party voip client in order to play a balanced game" you would be closer to the mark.

Simply put, with the current state of the game, if you arent using teamspeak, you are screwed. There are no other tools to coordinate between players, no lobby, no adhoc groups, a heavily broken chat system, etc... This isn't a team game, its the shell of one. Some day it might be.

Until that day comes, at least make it a fair game.

[Barghest Whelp]

Kraven Kor, on 04 January 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

If the lone wolves demanded no teams, and got their way, and the servers had to be shut off... they would still not acknowledge that it was their demands to nerf team play that caused it.

Works both ways.

And hyperbole is almost always untruthful.

You know, I agree with you. I actually joined a premade group because of the pugs getting so terrible that it was leaving a bitter taste in my mouth. Esecially when the terribad players don't even pay attention to text chat messages. Imo, that's why people get stomped, not because of uber 1337 pr3m4d35 0mgwtfbbqpwn1ng them.

However, even when playing with a premade I find it terribly frustrating when we bump in to another 4 man with 4 ravens or some other cheese combo, allthough the 4 raven is certainly the worst.

In regards to 8 mans, I actually didn't find the few teams we played that cheesy. In fact, the 8 man games were much more pleasurable overall imo. Even though we lost some and won some. None of them had any of the horrible 4 raven lance of failure. I've only ever seen these in pugs. And no, it's not that they're so incredibly badass that we loose that makes me hate them (if you're good, you can easily pop them fairly quickly), but it's just so incredibly boring to fight against.

Imo they're just abusing a bug. This bug is bad optimisation and bad netcode, which makes them move a bit glitchy sometimes, wich in turn could make them harder to hit. Not a direct I-win button, but could be considered an exploit. Either way, it just makes me want to DC and launch a new map, because it's so incredibly boring.

The lesson to be learned from this is: there will always be people abusing whatever game mechanics they can to win. If you loose to these people just don't let it get to you, because then they really win. That exactly what they want. They want to make you get angry, they want to annoy you. If not, they wouldn't be stomping pugs with maximum cheese on top. After all, that cheese is meant to go with your whine, see?

So, play the game, have fun, and those very few times you encounter a cheesy premade, or get stomped, let it slide. Launch another game and have. If you're getting stomped all the time and you're one of the top damage dealers on your team on a regular basis, and this bothers you, go join a group.

I know it may sound intimidating, but there are quite a few groups out there that are really relaxed and just play to have fun. This just makes sure you can communicate with your team during the match, and that in itself can make the game a whole lot more pleasurable.

So don't hesitate, go check out the merc corp recuitment forum now!

[Wraith05]

Serapth, on 05 January 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

Yeah... you every actually tried that? I highly doubt it...

In the middle of combat, to chat you need to hit Y, then type your message. During this time, you are completely locked out from using the keyboard to do important things like... moving.

Now perhaps if they had a hotkey saying "attack my target", or frankly, if they had more advanced targeting then r, or the ability to "group target", then perhaps pugs would have a chance.

But again, this is just another in the missing feature column.

It's possible to type commands without limiting your combat effectiveness.

Start of match point your mech in the direction you want to go (3, g, forward etc...) And start moving .

While you are going straight and no combat is happening (no need to hit anything for a few moments) you can hit y and outline a basic battle plan. Part of that battle plan should be "I will call out targets using one letter designations. Example: A"

So then when you are in battle and you find your target all you have to do is hit R to get your target (doing that anyway). then Y, A, Enter.

And how long does it really take you to hit 3 buttons? Will it cut down on your combat prowess enough to get you killed or put you at a major disadvantage? I know it doesn't for me.

Of course being able to hit 1 button that sends a macro "attack target * " would be better, but what we have now can work also without VOIP.

The problem is people who get on voice comms usually all have the mindset of working together before ever even launching. Where a pug may be willing to and if given a command will follow it for good outcomes, or may just want to run and gun and not want to listen and rambo.

So a large difference between premades and pugs is the knowledge their team will together before even getting into a match.

Edited by Wraith05, 05 January 2013 - 09:44 AM.

[Serapth]

Wraith05, on 05 January 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

The problem is people who get on voice comms usually all have the mindset of working together before ever even launching. Where a pug may be willing to and if given a command will follow it for good outcomes, or may just want to run and gun and not want to listen and rambo.

That is the main difference between premades and pugs is the willingness to work together before even getting into a match.

That is *a* difference.

Painting an entire community with a single brush is silly at best. Just as saying all premades are easy-mode stat padding minmaxers is wrong. It might be true for a subset, but it certainly isn't true for all.

And yes, adding 3 key strokes in the middle of a fight to communicate IS a massive burden, which is why it doesnt happen. Trust me, I am one of the most "vocal" puggers you will encounter, and trying to communicate enemy positions or focusing fire has gotten me killed many times.

As to trying to coordinate at the beginning of the match... while the screen is greyed out for some bizarre reason, with text that lasts seconds for some equally bizarre reason, with a group of strangers all in unknown mechs... not going to happen.

The communications tools in this game can basically be described as non-existent, so expecting any team play beyond "Upper city" or "Play defence" or the ocacsional "Enemy in D6", just isn't going to happen, because frankly, it cant.

Quote

That is the main difference between premades and pugs is the willingness to work together before even getting into a match.

Have you ever played a pug game? I am actually curious because you realize there is exactly ZERO ability too communicate before a match if you aren't a premade on a 3rd party voip solution right?

Willingness is completely the wrong word... CANT is the right word.

Edited by Serapth, 05 January 2013 - 09:18 AM.

[G4M3R]

/Cue old man voice/

In the old days of what we called "closed beta", we had no comms, and no cadet bonuses, we had to grind for our mechs - barefoot! In 50 inches of snow. And then when we just thought we were good enough they wiped our hard work.

/End old man voice/

Seriously. It's not a big deal PUGing. It's rough. We all had to go through it at one point or another. (Except I guess those that were smart enough to join a unit right from the start.)

I became a better player because of solo-ing in the PUGs throughout most of closed beta.

Edited by G4M3R, 05 January 2013 - 09:41 AM.

[Wraith05]

Serapth, on 05 January 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

That is *a* difference.

Painting an entire community with a single brush is silly at best. Just as saying all premades are easy-mode stat padding minmaxers is wrong. It might be true for a subset, but it certainly isn't true for all.

The communications tools in this game can basically be described as non-existent, so expecting any team play beyond "Upper city" or "Play defence" or the ocacsional "Enemy in D6", just isn't going to happen, because frankly, it cant.

Sorry poor choice of wording there, will edit. You're right it may not be the *main* difference but I think it is one of the bigger causes to why a premade has a distinct advantage over a group of solo's.

Didn't mean to do a generalization and I didn't mean to imply pug players don't want to communicate. Just that until you are in a match you don't know if the other 7 players are going to try to listen or do their own thing. And a lot of time those 1 or 2 of them tend to just do their own thing. I'm not trying to paint the pugs bad but you have to admit when even 1 or 2 people on a team choose not to listen or work together even if the other 6-7 do. It can put that team at a disadvantage when faced with 8 players all willing to work together.

Quote

And yes, adding 3 key strokes in the middle of a fight to communicate IS a massive burden, which is why it doesnt happen. Trust me, I am one of the most "vocal" puggers you will encounter, and trying to communicate enemy positions or focusing fire has gotten me killed many times.



As to trying to coordinate at the beginning of the match... while the screen is greyed out for some bizarre reason, with text that lasts seconds for some equally bizarre reason, with a group of strangers all in unknown mechs... not going to happen.

I can see it potentially being an issue for some. And I do agree a 1 button macro or in game VOIP would be better. I type fast (not saying you don't) so hitting "Y then B then Enter" takes me less than a second. So it really doesn't affect me in battle to do something like that. (unless I forget to hit enter =P)

And when I said coordinate at the beginning of a match I didn't mean during the grey screen I meant while you are walking from start location to the point you want to get to.

For example if I wanted to do a G line push on river city. I would start the match, position my mech to move toward Gline/down Gline and while it is walking along the G line I would type out:

"Hey all, let's try a G line push. to the 7 line then push up to their base! Also once in combat I'll call out my target by one letter. Please focus on that target. Example if I want you to target A i'll just type *A*."

So now I I have typed this to them out of combat without needing to alter my course/use my keyboard. I lost no time in moving into position and everyone has a game plan to follow if they want. They know what it will mean when I start typing random letters during battle. And they know the general game plan I want for the group.

I just have to hope all 7 of them are ok with it and follow it. If not then I'll just become a duckling and follow the group/try to stay together but still will call out my targets in hope they will at least focus fire.

I have done this before, I've used it and it can work.

Now yes I know VOIP is still going to have an advantage since you can get more complex messages out during battle. And yes they should have a VOIP integrated into game. But for now typing out the plan in this fashion can at least give your team a chance IF they are willing to coordinate.

The matches I pug I also find either no one listens or no one even puts a plan up at all, even when someone asks. So another disadvantage to pug matches is you have a random chance to get someone in match willing to lead.

Quote

Have you ever played a pug game? I am actually curious because you realize there is exactly ZERO ability too communicate before a match if you aren't a premade on a 3rd party voip solution right?

Willingness is completely the wrong word... CANT is the right word.

I'm sorry, you misunderstand me. I didn't mean it on the literal sense of putting a battle plan together prior to a match. I meant it on a team basis.

If you are on a premade team you know the other 3 or 7 players are going to work together. You all have the same mindset of working as a team (usually).

Where if you are solo dropping you may have that mindset but you don't know if the 7 other players are going to be willing to work together or just rambo. Hope that cleared it up?

Edited by Wraith05, 05 January 2013 - 09:46 AM.