159 replies to this topic

[Galenit]

Lykaon, on 05 January 2013 - 01:53 AM, said:

Since you have never experienced it let me try to explain.

Look at your mech bays.
Do you own an Atlas AS7D-DC?
or a Raven 3L?

No? buy one you won't need much of anything else.

Boring!

My first mech was a raven 3l (pre ecm mastered it) and i hope they will nerf it a little bit. Dont like it that every one and her grandmother riding it now. Dont like the fotw(fotm) players. They would ride a publictoilet if it is fotm, in german we call this people wendehälse. I play it in 1 of 20 matches now, or less. Its no fun to see lots of "pilots" legfucking or runningthrough with it and i dont want be one of them. But the funniest think is, look on the why play something other then jenner or raven is sucking threads and you will see a lot of people posting in this threads about there überjenner now driving ravens.

And the cheesy groupbuilds you will discover in puggames too. Ever played with 8 pugs against 2 3L and 2 ddc premades? Or the great skillfull 4x emc light premades?

Basic math:
The team without a premade looses about 90% against the team with a premade.

You want to play with your friends?
Go on comstar, fill your ranks and go 8 man.

Dont farm pugs and justify it by donating a victory to the ones randomly on your side.

----
Loosing is no problem, one of the best games this year for me were:
Me and a teammate left, 3 enemys, we where fighting on uppercity base. We kill 2 enemys, then my teamate dies. 1 enemy and me left, both torso only, both 1 or 2 weapons left. He got a better hit then me, i die.
But it was a lot more fun then the normal stomps when premades are involved.

If there is a pugs vs pug game, you have it more often that 2-3 mechs of each side left and fighting it out.
Its more fun for me than stupid stomping, but everyone have its on definition of fun.

Edited by Galenit, 05 January 2013 - 02:31 AM.

[p4r4g0n]

Lykaon, on 05 January 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

-snip-

LOL ... I pretty much knew the gist of what you were going to post when I saw your name quoting me.

Unfortunately, you seem to be missing the point that solo PUGs get the most fun in match ups with other solo PUGs. That was the crux of the issue. Without a pre-existing bias to liking MWO, the current gameplay situation does not optimize new player retention who typically would solo PUG. Whether that should concern anyone depends on their opinion on whether this is a critical issue.

If this sentence "If you don't, then farm to your heart's content and continue creating a hostile experience for solo PUGs." led you to believe I was QQ'g about the big bad premade boogie man, I apologize for not wording it more clearly.

I have stated before I have no issue dropping against or with a premade. However, I do think it is pretty lame for two 4 man groups to drop sync (or try to) to farm faster or because they're just too weak to handle a PUG game with just a 4 man group.

I believe that with Phase 3, dropping with premades may be more fun for solo PUGgers but that's something I'm still waiting to see proven.


On a related note, just because I'm on the team that won because the premade group decisively won the day doesn't mean I enjoyed the match or got much fun out of it. Phase 3 may solve this issue, hopefully.

[Faldrin]

Why is it to hard to see that 4 man's in pug games is hurting this game.

We have been saying this since 8 man's was dropping in games Vs pugs. And you guys flamed us then but we was right. it was a steam roll and not due to skill!

So they look at the stats and stop 8 man's

Starts with

When 8 mans come in there wont be any 4 man's fighting pugs as we will all be there fighting! Ok hows that working out for you?
8 man comes in and the 8 man groups all split up and carry on farming pugs!
Then you go on about its due to balance.. Ok and 4 man on RL com's is not OP compared to 8 men typing? But unlike you guys us pugs don't have system where we can choose a easy option. But unlike you guys some of us since this have dug are feet in and choose to pug only rather than create more problems.

And then you start using "but the other 4 pugs get a easy win so alls good"... really? Wow all bow to the kind and wonderful pre-mades that are only doing good!

P.S.

Never said all pre-made's sync drop hell even I know it don't happen that often! But as I said there is no need to sync drop as even a 4 man is to much for 8 pugs even if the other side has 4 bad pugs.

Edited by Faldrin, 05 January 2013 - 02:47 AM.

[Alik Kerensky]

IceSerpent, on 04 January 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

BV-like restrictions is also a big issue (slightly less major though). In other words, the root of all this pug vs. premade debate is that we got a sandbox, but haven't got any sand in it yet.

I always wondered why they haven't implemented Battletech BV tables for drops... really a simple solution since it's easily calculable based on mech and loadout... just have to set the parameters for an even-ish match. Not a programmer mind you, but the information is readily available.

[Inviticus]

Faldrin, on 05 January 2013 - 02:44 AM, said:

Why is it to hard to see that 4 man's in pug games is hurting this game.

We have been saying this since 8 man's was dropping in games Vs pugs. And you guys flamed us then but we was right. it was a steam roll and not due to skill!

So they look at the stats and stop 8 man's

Starts with

When 8 mans come in there wont be any 4 man's fighting pugs as we will all be there fighting! Ok hows that working out for you?
8 man comes in and the 8 man groups all split up and carry on farming pugs!
Then you go on about its due to balance.. Ok and 4 man on RL com's is not OP compared to 8 men typing? But unlike you guys us pugs don't have system where we can choose a easy option. But unlike you guys some of us since this have dug are feet in and choose to pug only rather than create more problems.

And then you start using "but the other 4 pugs get a easy win so alls good"... really? Wow all bow to the kind and wonderful pre-mades that are only doing good!

P.S.

Never said all pre-made's sync drop hell even I know it don't happen that often! But as I said there is no need to sync drop as even a 4 man is to much for 8 pugs even if the other side has 4 bad pugs.

I completely agree.

I had 5 or 6 friends who are all into battletech table top and loved MW3 and 4. They tried this game and couldn't even put up with the 25 cadet matches due to the the horrible matchmaker and how hit doesn't even take into account a single 4 man premade or mech tonnage and loadout when determining group composition among it's other failures. PuG stomping is really hindering the growth of MWO and anyone who doesn't realize that must not care about the longevity of this title and is only interested in their own ezmode.

If this game is supposed to be team oriented, then where are all the tools to support it?

Edited by Inviticus, 05 January 2013 - 04:35 AM.

[Boris The Spider]

Faldrin, on 05 January 2013 - 02:44 AM, said:

Why is it to hard to see that 4 man's in pug games is hurting this game.

Of course you are right, but what do you expect us to do? VOIP is an expected feature in online games and has been for at least the last 10 years, you seriously cannot expect people not to use it because your refusal to use it puts you at a disadvantage. Generous benefactors have gifted this community the use of several free Teamspeak servers, the people on these servers are welcoming to new players and actively encourage everybody that can to join. The VOIP community’s goal has been clear since day one, and that is get as near to everybody using VOIP as humanly possible, increasing the long term player base and improving the quality of the games.

Farming? PAH! If I was farming cows, I wouldn’t leave my farmhouse door wide open and a place set at the table for the beasts! The best quality games to be found at the minute outside of 8vs8 are 4VS4, if the VOIP community's goal had been realised then almost all matches would have at least one 4 man group on each side, or multiple groups like 4+3 VS 4+2 or 4+4 VS 4+2+2 with a lone-wolf minority filling in the gaps.

Faldrin, on 05 January 2013 - 02:44 AM, said:

But unlike you guys us pugs don't have system where we can choose a easy option. But unlike you guys some of us since this have dug are feet in and choose to pug only rather than create more problems.

Yes you do and you know you do, and no, your choice to dig your heels in is causing problems. You guys are demanding that the games mechanic be changed now because you cannot either wait for the in-game VOIP/Lobby/ELO matchmaking/Community Warfare, or cannot take the 3 minutes required to set up Teamspeak. All the while, claiming to be in it for the 'new players' which I guess that you are... unless that new player has the audacity to use VOIP in which case they should be thrown to the sharks! I was on the COMSTAR VOIP server before I even owned my own mech. Should I have went direct on my second day of play to fighting co-ordinated 8 man teams of DDC Atlas in my trial mech? How much time do the lone-wolves spend tutoring new players? Helping perfect their mech builds? Offering advice on which chassis to buy? None, it is the VOIP community that do all that, free and open to anybody that wants it.

MW:O's VOIP community has done all it can, we are not the problem. PGI should have either put VOIP and lobby into the game by now or pushed the Teamspeak option.. link it in the installer, put the forum link http://mwomercs.com/...e-chat-servers/ in the game client on the main screen instead of advertising their Wangs, and the matchmaker should have been fixed to ensure that a 4 man can only drop if another 4 man is available for the other side. At the minute were the ones doing all the leg work to help new players, building the community and trying to ensure the longevity of this game and all we get for our trouble is insults.

Inviticus, on 05 January 2013 - 04:34 AM, said:

I had 5 or 6 friends ....
If this game is supposed to be team oriented, then where are all the tools to support it?

Stickied on the main page of the forum just posted in! You have 5-6 RL freinds who play this game, thats 5-6 more than me and I have done alright, you should have been kicking but from day one.

Edited by Boris The Spider, 05 January 2013 - 05:19 AM.

[Galenit]

Boris The Spider, on 05 January 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

I was on the COMSTAR VOIP server before I even owned my own mech.

And why dont you fill your ranks on that server and do 8vs8 then?

The gamemechanics where changed by the demandings of the premades, they got their own gamemode.
8vs8 is near empty, why dont you use the tools and gamemode given to premadeplayers?

Try to force others to use voicecom and playing as fillers for premades surely will help this game ....

Edited by Galenit, 05 January 2013 - 05:40 AM.

[Mack1]

Kraven Kor, on 04 January 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

If the lone wolves demanded no teams, and got their way, and the servers had to be shut off... they would still not acknowledge that it was their demands to nerf team play that caused it.

Works both ways.

And hyperbole is almost always untruthful.

I have never one seen a lone wolf asking for team servers to be closed. I have seen plenty asking for the option of a solo only server to get away from the premade pug stompers.

[Boris The Spider]

Galenit, on 05 January 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

And why dont you fill your ranks on that server and do 8vs8 then?

The gamemechanics where change by the demanding of the premades, they got their own gamemode.
8vs8 is near empty, why dont you use the tools and gamemode given to premadeplayers?

Play 8vs8 in a trial mech? You having a laff right? These days I play 8vs8 whenever I can find a group that is wiling to do so, but as a pick up player it is difficult to find groups right now.

Edited by Boris The Spider, 05 January 2013 - 05:46 AM.

[Sir JoJo]

Mack1, on 05 January 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

I have never one seen a lone wolf asking for team servers to be closed. I have seen plenty asking for the option of a solo only server to get away from the premade pug stompers.

well they have up to 4 and 8 mans atm shouldent be hard to add a final for solo only imo

[Galenit]

Boris The Spider, on 05 January 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

... if the VOIP community's goal had been realised then almost all matches would have at least one 4 man group on each side, or multiple groups like 4+3 VS 4+2 or 4+4 VS 4+2+2 with a lone-wolf minority filling in the gaps.

Missed this part in my last post. Thanks for that, now we know why there is this many pugstomping and defending it on the forum.

What do you sink what will happen when you reach that goal?
10% of playerbase is premadeplayers, let the fillerpugs that dont give up be another 10%, thats 20% of the playerbase. Do you want to pay a few hundred euros every month? No? Than this game will die.
Great plan man!

Boris The Spider, on 05 January 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

Play 8vs8 in a trial mech? You having a laff right? These days I play 8vs8 whenever I can find a group that is wiling to do so, but as a pick up player it is difficult to find groups right now.

But the lonewolfs have to play against premades in trialmechs. But thats something different it think, like filling your ranks to 8 or combining 2 4mans to a 8man or 2 3man and a 2 man to 8 or 4 2mans to 8, ....

Lame excuses i see, defending easy mode i see.

Just let everyone play who he wants, with premades, without premades and this problem is solved.
I dont understand why so many premadeplayers defend their easymode and dont adapt, learn 2 play and fill their ranks on comstar. Maybe they want easymode?

Edited by Galenit, 05 January 2013 - 06:09 AM.

[Boris The Spider]

Sir JoJo, on 05 January 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

well they have up to 4 and 8 mans atm shouldent be hard to add a final for solo only imo

1) Solo players are required by the matchmaker to make the tonnage up at the minute.
2) Three man groups would need to launch at the same time as another three man and a two man group or they will never find a match.
3) When comunity warfare hits we are all goinig to get divided up into the six houses and an independant pilot group. With a requirement for a solo queue, a four man queue and an eight man queue wouldnt that split this games community into 21 different queues, are there enough players for that?
4) When ingame VOIP is in, will we require a separate queue for people who use ingame VOIP?

[Galenit]

Boris The Spider, on 05 January 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

4) When ingame VOIP is in, will we require a separate queue for people who use ingame VOIP?

Ever played a game with ingamevoice without a group?
Most players mute it after a few minutes, but fastchatsystems are used all the way.

I dont like to hear stupid kids 1/3 of my age stroking, playing musik or trashtalking when i play.
Let me say it this way: Iam to old for that kind of ****.

Boris The Spider, on 05 January 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

.
2) Three man groups would need to launch at the same time as another three man and a two man group or they will never find a match.

No, they stay in queue and then play if there are other groups. 4,3,4,3,4,2. You have 2 times 8 and 4 that wait for the next game. Not that much change from now. Or they went on comstar and fill their ranks up to 4 or 8.

Edited by Galenit, 05 January 2013 - 06:17 AM.

[Boris The Spider]

Galenit, on 05 January 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

Lame excuses i see, defending easy mode i see.

More insults. You don't know me. I play 8vs8 whenever I can and I do so in random pickup groups of whatever mechs people want to bring. This is the hardest possible mode in MW:O, playing against organised premades with set builds and loadouts. One has to wonder if your own motivation isn't just to remove VOIP players from your game so you can farm new players in trail mechs with whatever pimped out FOTM you are rocking at the minute? Then you wan't the queue system changing so the learning curve for VOIP players is so steep the new VOIP players can never get out of your PUGTopia and you can keep farming them until they rage quit.

[Boris The Spider]

Galenit, on 05 January 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

Ever played a game with ingamevoice without a group?
Most players mute it after a few minutes, but fastchatsystems are used all the way.

I dont like to hear stupid kids 1/3 of my age stroking, playing musik or trashtalking when i play.
Let me say it this way: Iam to old for that kind of ****.

Yes, I came here from Battlefield where I play exclusively in pick up groups, never been in a clan in my life. If someone plays music my squad channel they get kicked, if someone mutes me in my squad channel they get kicked and can go slum it with the lone wolves and die alone. MW:O has a very mature VOIP using community, some people are just unwilling to give it a go.

Galenit, on 05 January 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

No, they stay in queue and then play if there are other groups. 4,3,4,3,4,2. You have 2 times 8 and 4 that wait for the next game. Not that much change from now. Or they went on comstar and fill their ranks up to 4 or 8.

The maths don't work, some people only want to play with people they know, families for instance. The facility in this game for 5-6-7 man groups has already been removed, a solo only queue would remove 3 man groups.

Edited by Boris The Spider, 05 January 2013 - 06:28 AM.

[Galenit]

Boris The Spider, on 05 January 2013 - 06:16 AM, said:

One has to wonder if your own motivation isn't just to remove VOIP players from your game so you can farm new players in trail mechs with whatever pimped out FOTM you are rocking at the minute?

ELO will, hopefully, work against this behavior.
Can you explain how do you come to this conclusion?
Dont know who anyone can read this from my post, maybe my bad english ...

But i read something in yours that let me worry, dont know why do you not answer to that part of my post ...

Boris The Spider, on 05 January 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

The best quality games to be found at the minute outside of 8vs8 are 4VS4, if the VOIP community's goal had been realised then almost all matches would have at least one 4 man group on each side, or multiple groups like 4+3 VS 4+2 or 4+4 VS 4+2+2 with a lone-wolf minority filling in the gaps.

I only want a pugonly queue (and collisions!)
Dont want to remove VOIP, just dont want to use it myself, dont want to remove premades, just dont want to play with them.
But here are some people that want to force me to play with premades, force me to fill their ranks, try to force me using VOIP.

Edited by Galenit, 05 January 2013 - 06:39 AM.

[RabidWombat]

So this is my first post on this forum, having spent a lifetime playing FPS and Battletech genre games in all their forms. I'm a big fan of the franchise, so I really want this game to be successful. I wanted to learn the game before shopping for a clan, so here are my initial thoughts on the game from a FPS fan/currently PUG player perspective:

• No in-game team voice? One of the clear advantages of a premade is their ability to communicate on Vent/Teamspeak, which could be nullified in-game by the devs. It's unrealistic to consider a PUG competitive if they have to stop piloting and start typing to communicate. Put another way: the game would just be more fun if you could easily talk to your team, regardless of the PUG/Premade issue. Other top games have this.
  
• There should be a short window where a group can see who is on their team, what mechs they are piloting, and swap their mechs to build some synergies and balance. Other top games have this.
  
• In the current system, it appears that the computer completely decides who winds up on which team. Does it do tonnage checks, pilot record checks, and do some form of balancing? It might be the premades jobbing the system that's skewing my perception, but it really doesn't look like any balancing based on those KPIs is being done. Other top games have this.

I love the actual gameplay. This is the game I've been waiting years for. I haven't had this much fun since I was stomping people with my Catapult on the Xbox. This game has that same fluid feel to combat, but with a giant leap in sophistication for loadout control and piloting options. If this was a non-multiplayer game based in a Skyrim-esque world it'd take home all the hardware at every awards show.


But this is obviously supposed to be a multiplayer experience, and currently I don't see the development in this area to make it a top game in that aspect. I keep bringing up "top game" because there's no reason this can't be one given the rich story and mechanics it's being based off, and looking at the price of MC, $15 to buy a mech puts this at about $50-60 to buy into a lance, which is top game dollar.

I will likely toss $15 in because I believe in the franchise and what I've seen is a good start, but more money will not flow from me until it looks like those $ are being put towards building a better PUG experience for non-clanned players.

• This game will not succeed without a long-term fanatical core that clan-up and become social media and real life advocates for the game.
  
• This game will not succeed without a constant stream of new players entering through the PUG system that are not demoralized or straight up shamed out of playing by premades rolling over them, sometimes spewing "Newbz, lolzor, learn to play or go away!"

They will go away.


Game developers need better game mechanics to protect the PUG experience. This should focus on balancing better based on tonnage and skill. Have game modes that feed in 8, 4, and 2-mech groups and balances accordingly. Only match 8s against 8s, and don't drop a 4 into a match unless there's another 4 on the other side. Same goes for 2s. I would seriously be willing to wait an extra 20-30 seconds to start a match while this gets sorted out. Check out the current COD and Battlefield games and see how long it takes to find/start a match there; nobody would be super pissed about it.

Clans need to self-police douches. Trash talking PUGs when you drop a premade lance with voice support on them? Really? That's what makes you feel great? That's how your clan rolls? All it takes to make great clans horrible is to have their leadership stand by while individual members, however good a pilot they may be, do their part to ruin the community by griefing the game into oblivion.

Thanks for reading.

Edited by RabidWombat, 05 January 2013 - 06:35 AM.

[Boris The Spider]

No Galenit, you do what you want. It was alway the stated intention in the Dev Blogs from day one for lone wolf players to make up the numbers for groups. Perhaps you should have a lone-wolf only game mode, but not yet, currently you are needed to make up the numbers. Sorry if that is not your cup of tea, but thats the way it has to be at this stage in development.

RabidWombat, for the minute we have to be content to use the free teamspeak servers provided by the community. PGI will surely implement in game VOIP at some point in the future. This and a lobby will most definatley be required once community warfare goes live as the current random drop system will fall down once we are all split amongs various houses. Once the tools exist in the game it should be as easy to join a lance as it is to join a squad in a battlefield game, once it is, that is how most people will play the game.

Edited by Boris The Spider, 05 January 2013 - 06:47 AM.

[FullMetalJackass]

Even without teamspeak it doesn't take much for PUGS to work together. A simple chat of go 3 line...focus on A,B etc. can make all the difference. Most PUG games I have been in the issue is a total lack of communication.

[Sir JoJo]

Boris The Spider, on 05 January 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

1) Solo players are required by the matchmaker to make the tonnage up at the minute.
2) Three man groups would need to launch at the same time as another three man and a two man group or they will never find a match.
3) When comunity warfare hits we are all goinig to get divided up into the six houses and an independant pilot group. With a requirement for a solo queue, a four man queue and an eight man queue wouldnt that split this games community into 21 different queues, are there enough players for that?
4) When ingame VOIP is in, will we require a separate queue for people who use ingame VOIP?

Good points