159 replies to this topic

[TB Freelancer]

zenstrata, on 04 January 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

This is a team game. If you do not want to play and work together as a team, you are in the wrong game.

Serapth, on 04 January 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

What you really mean to say is "I premade, like padding my stats, and therefore dont care about the rest of you. If you want to enjoy the game, play like I do".

That pretty much sums up my opinion of that type of argument. It is a team game, but we're talking about two entirely separate class of team here...

...I really do find it distasteful that many organized group players are fighting so hard to hold onto the option playing random individuals. They know full well that even with Elo implemented the odds will continue to be in their favor. They all seem to lie by omission on that count, How can a group of random players possibly even have a 50/50 chance of winning against equally ranked players who are organized and had the benefit of choosing their load outs before the match?

They can't. The odds will always favor the group.

Its like brown belts wanting to spend the majority of their ranked matches fighting yellow belts and getting full rewards for it, which brings me to another idea.

Rewards.

As groups get better, they see diminishing rewards from matches mixed with pugs to the point where mixing with pugs is pointless because it would take dozens of matches to earn what they would as a lone pug or in part of a group facing other groups. That would allow poor groups to keep mixing with pugs and earning good coin, but they would eventually reach a point where either disbanding or making the leap facing other groups the only viable options to keep earning cbills or stats. At a certain Elo rating, players in groups larger than 2 would earn nothing for facing off against pugs...it would just be practice.

Right now I really can't blame groups (for the most part) for mixing with pugs because there's nothing better for them to use. Facing pugs is a lot easier and a lot less frustrating. I can't fault most groups for it, the matchmaker just isn't up to snuff yet. But I don't see Elo doing a whole hell of a lot of good either.

Still doesn't change the fact that there needs to be a reason for groups to want to play groups over mixing with pugs. I think removing the ability to farm them would probably be the most effective. Better rewards for pure group fights to get it kick started until everything else is running right..

The other possibilities to encourage groups to fight groups include much more in depth stats W/L ratios for wins vs groups and wins vs pugs or vs mixed opponents.

[Mycrus]

why are some of you premades defending your divine right to pugstomp?

anybody can plainly see that it is killing the game.

it is also killing your skills... as you get cocky and think that you are Mech Romney incarnate...

when you 'eventually' face up against a fairly competent 8-man (in the rare occasion that you do play 8-man) and you will realize what i am saying...

but no, you will not admit to yourself that it is because of your blunted pugstomping skills... you will still say that it is PGIs fault for not putting balance in 8-man games... all the while you claim that 4-man vs PUGs is balanced?!

so you will hide in your 4-man and pretend that you didn't get roflstomped in the last 8-man you played... the worse thing is you will take it out against the PUGs and run 2-4 SSRM ECM clown builds.

4-man vs PUGs is OP
4-man (with ECM) vs PUGs is god mode
4 + 4 vs PUGs is cowardice

i've seen both sides of the story and sorry while i do belong to a fairly large unit - i'm taking the side of the PUGs in this round...

Edited by Mycrus, 04 January 2013 - 08:09 PM.

[p4r4g0n]

1. Solo PUGs v solo PUGs = high probability of fun
2. Mixed 4 man group + solo PUGs v Mixed 4 man group + solo PUG = Win to team with more competent 4 man group, solo PUGs generally either just bystanders or play follow the group (sometimes fun for solo PUGs)
3. 4 man group + 4 man group v 4 man group + solo PUGs = depends on competency of 4 man groups, odds favour 4 man groups combo, PUGs either just bystanders or follow the group (sometimes fun for solo PUGs)
4. 4 man group + 4 man group v solo PUGs = stomp (generally and no fun for solo PUGs)
5. 8 man group (unit) v 8 man casual group = stomp (not sure if there are any casual groups that play 8 man regularly but probably unlikely)
6. 8 man group (unit) v 8 man group (unit) = hardcore

In all of the above combinations, only 3 offer solo PUGs chance of having some fun and only 1 has a high probability of fun or feeling like you actually contributed something in a match. If you believe solo PUGs are to be the foundation and source of future growth of the game, PGI better damn well make sure that solo PUGs have an experience that maximizes the probability of fun. If you don't, then farm to your heart's content and continue creating a hostile experience for solo PUGs.

As far as the suggestions for separate queue for solo, groups and 8v8 is concerned, the fact that PGI doesn't seem inclined to head towards this direction is a pretty good clue that their stats are showing that the likely outcome for the group queue will be similar to what you're seeing in current 8v8. While I personally do not like not having a solo queue, I will wait for Phase 3 to render final judgement.

Just my 2 cents.

[Sandslice]

I'm not sure if it's been raised... and I could be off-base... but it sometimes feels like premades actually break the matchmaker, occasionally causing "short handed drops" on the other team.

I don't mind the coordination difference most of the time... but when it's combined with the system granting the premade a pure numbers advantage on top of it, it's not so good.

[Wraith05]

Sandslice, on 04 January 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

I'm not sure if it's been raised... and I could be off-base... but it sometimes feels like premades actually break the matchmaker, occasionally causing "short handed drops" on the other team.

I don't mind the coordination difference most of the time... but when it's combined with the system granting the premade a pure numbers advantage on top of it, it's not so good.

With how the matchmaker works I don't think its possible for any premades to intentionally cause short handed drops.

[Thirdstar]

I haven't read the thread but I predict it contains a lot of people demonizing other people, a lot of hyperbole, a few scattered strawmen and lots of talking past each other.

Am I correct?

[Wraith05]

Thirdstar, on 04 January 2013 - 10:30 PM, said:

I haven't read the thread but I predict it contains a lot of people demonizing other people, a lot of hyperbole, a few scattered strawmen and lots of talking past each other.

Am I correct?

Haha I don't agree with you often thirdstar, but you are correct sir!

Edited by Wraith05, 04 January 2013 - 10:31 PM.

[Sandslice]

Wraith05, on 04 January 2013 - 10:29 PM, said:

With how the matchmaker works I don't think its possible for any premades to intentionally cause short handed drops.

I don't think it's intentional. It's just an odd thought that when a 4 drops, the MM sometimes struggles to keep up with matching pugs to the entire group - and that short drops (8v7 etc) result from the MM's failure.

[Wraith05]

Sandslice, on 04 January 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

I don't think it's intentional. It's just an odd thought that when a 4 drops, the MM sometimes struggles to keep up with matching pugs to the entire group - and that short drops (8v7 etc) result from the MM's failure.

If a group drops with a weight class that the pool of players isn't filling. Then yeah I could see it happen. Say 4 lights and only 3 lights are in the player pool because everyone is playing assault.

[One Medic Army]

So I just played some PUG matches.
And my team lost horribly in most of them.
And you know what? It was because my team was being f***ing stupid, not some magical premade bogeyman.
Complain all you want about premades, but when I manage 400+ damage in a match, and the rest of the team can barely manage 100 (most were around 50 usually) the problem is that there's an excess of crappy players on one team.
ELO ratings will hopefully spread the terrible people around.

Heck, I'll take some of the blame, I was playing a Dragon-1N and everyone knows those are bad.

Edited by One Medic Army, 04 January 2013 - 11:01 PM.

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

Kraven Kor, on 04 January 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

If the lone wolves demanded no teams, and got their way, and the servers had to be shut off... they would still not acknowledge that it was their demands to nerf team play that caused it.

Works both ways.

And hyperbole is almost always untruthful.

But then nobody is asking for that are they? Well almost nobody and pretty much safe to say nobody who isn't trolling. People are asking for balanced teams in pick up play. There are a few options to accomplish balancing teams with regards to pre-mades.

1. Utilize the matchmaker to take group composition into account and make sure the sides have equal numbers of teams of equal sizes, maybe +- 1 or 2 mechs. Then you dont need the 4 man team restriction and you dont need the separate 8v8 Queue that seems mostly abandoned from what I hear.

2. Give pick up players the option not to be matched with pre-mades

3. Get c3 to work among all players on any given side as long as they have it enabled, without the need to pre-group

or a mix of the above.

At any rate back on point... its simply disingenuous to suggest that pick up players want to eliminate pre-grouping, or nerf it, unless you consider evenly matched sides a nerf.

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

Wraith05, on 04 January 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

So I've read some of the suggestions here but I don't think we found one that will work fully quite yet.

My favorite so far is the 4 man pre-made per team.

In theory I like it, but what about groups of 2-3? When I pug and ask if anyone is a group most common answer I get is "In a 2 man group" So would they be considered pugs or the premade per team? Would the other team be matched with an equal number premade? Will it only be 1 pre made per team?

Pug only queue.

Good for pugs, bad for pre-mades. And not because of pug stomping but because even if the pre-mades don't want to admit it. We need pugs to fill out games and keep being matched against different people. So my fear of this feature is if you take the pugs out of the queues you'll just end up with a smaller version of the 8 man queue. Long waits, hard to find games, and 1-2 viable top builds due to no weight restrictions.

It's a team game so join a team:

I understand not wanting to be on team speak all the time. Sometimes I just want to play the game and not talk to others. I still work as a team, but I don't want to listen to the idle chat in the server. Or hear about 1 guy did this awesome shot, or bragging about how good he is.

So no, telling pugs to just join a clan/team is not an option for everyone. But at the same time when I do pug, I pug with the knowledge I'm getting put into a group of randoms so I expect the teamwork to be random from worthless teammates to a spartan phalanx.

And finally just a request to both pugs and premades.

Pug's: Please stop assuming that your 0-8 loss was due to premades unless they said so in chat or you saw the same group of people 2 games +.

Also stop assuming premades group together as a crutch or just to pugstomp. Most of them don't most premades group because they like the team aspect of this game and like working together with clanmates/friends/even strangers.

Premades: Stop assuming pugs suck at this game. They don't they just choose to do a random groups no matter the reason. And 1 or 2 bad apples will make the whole batch look rotten in a game. Just like if we were to fight an 8vs8 and one team's scouts decided to run up and stand in front of us (extreme example). That team would lose badly.

And also be more accepting to your pug allies. Talk to them, explain why things go bad and how to fix it next time. Be open and warm and help them find groups if they want or ways to improve their gameplay in a nice way.

Rant done!

That is a good post.

I do share the concern for losing pug players from 'filling out the teams' if they were to implement a solo queue. That being said if player could do pick up play with voice coms a lot would still join a mixed queue, especially if that mixed queue balanced the number of pre-grouped players per side. The solo option could be run along side this sort of system without completely draining all the pugs from the mixed queue

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

Serapth, on 04 January 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

Hell, a lobby and user controlled match maker would make everything better.

If I want a super specialized game and am willing to wait for others that want to join, damnit I should be able to. Then you could do things like say... PuG only matches. No ECM matches. Etc... The more specifics you add, the longer you will wait of course, but if what you want is actually popular with the community, your wait wont be long at all.



Then why be offensive? Being dismissive of the problem is being offensive... you don't know its a bogieman or not, none of us do.

I agree with this also. A much more robust matchmaker would offer some fun options. I wonder which of the 'no ecm' or the 'no streak' matches would be more popular!
It would be great for pick up fun to be able to tailor the match you want, but it might be a problem come community warfare. For that they will really need a matchmaker capable of putting together balanced and fun matches, and it wont be compatible with a player driven match selection.

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

Serapth, on 04 January 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

LOL... so you're not farmers, but instead sync droppers? Is that really what you were trying to say?

By the way, I am not painting all pre-mades with the same brush. I would imagine most are premades simply because they want to group with friends, I can appreciate that.

The problem is, it massively unbalances the game, and the premades that dismiss this as a problem are infuriating to those of us that are pugging and suffering as a result. Most premades should want the *problem* fixed too, simply to make the game more fun for everyone to play. Just as getting pugstomped over and over gets old, rolling over pugs gets just as boring, at least for me.

That kind of hits the nail on the head. what everyone should want is for casual 2 - 8 player teams to be able to enter the random matchmaker as friends and have the matchmaker spit out fairly evenly matched games. I've been playing in some pre-mades on TS lately and it is fun. I dont think anybody wants to take that away. If we could all just agree that pre-made vs solo is a balance issue that the matchmakers needs to be able to address there would be a lot less vitriol on the subject.

[Lykaon]

p4r4g0n, on 04 January 2013 - 10:01 PM, said:

1. Solo PUGs v solo PUGs = high probability of fun
2. Mixed 4 man group + solo PUGs v Mixed 4 man group + solo PUG = Win to team with more competent 4 man group, solo PUGs generally either just bystanders or play follow the group (sometimes fun for solo PUGs)
3. 4 man group + 4 man group v 4 man group + solo PUGs = depends on competency of 4 man groups, odds favour 4 man groups combo, PUGs either just bystanders or follow the group (sometimes fun for solo PUGs)
4. 4 man group + 4 man group v solo PUGs = stomp (generally and no fun for solo PUGs)
5. 8 man group (unit) v 8 man casual group = stomp (not sure if there are any casual groups that play 8 man regularly but probably unlikely)
6. 8 man group (unit) v 8 man group (unit) = hardcore

In all of the above combinations, only 3 offer solo PUGs chance of having some fun and only 1 has a high probability of fun or feeling like you actually contributed something in a match. If you believe solo PUGs are to be the foundation and source of future growth of the game, PGI better damn well make sure that solo PUGs have an experience that maximizes the probability of fun. If you don't, then farm to your heart's content and continue creating a hostile experience for solo PUGs.

As far as the suggestions for separate queue for solo, groups and 8v8 is concerned, the fact that PGI doesn't seem inclined to head towards this direction is a pretty good clue that their stats are showing that the likely outcome for the group queue will be similar to what you're seeing in current 8v8. While I personally do not like not having a solo queue, I will wait for Phase 3 to render final judgement.

Just my 2 cents.

I find your viewpoint to be demeaning to pugs.It implies that without the premade in example 2 they would meander about for a few seconds discharging weapons in the dropzone before they found some other pug to follow like ducklings.

How many times in the past have you won a match and not even known there was a 4 man on your side?
How many times in the past have you lost a match and assumed it was because of premades with none present?

You puggies should be grateful yes grateful!

You can drop into a match and not know before hand that you will wait in que and fail and wait and fail and wait get a match that you already know is going to be at least 6 Atlas mechs with ECM and 2 other "optimized" mechs from the list of maybe 5 builds....win/lose repeat the afore mentioned wait/fail cycle to have a fairly good chance to face the same exact 8 man you just fought 20 minutes ago because it takes 20 minutes to get a match.

If you puggies had to deal with the crappy 8 mans you would have flooded the forums with your bytchin.

Seriously imagine it. getting at least 6 failures to find a match followed by a drop composed of 8 ecm Atlas mechs.Every time!

You all wouldn't shut up for days.

Reality check folks not every loss is caused by premades! I just wish PGI would release the data on match compositions so some of the more vocal anti premade puggies can come to grips with the reality that sucking at mechwarrior is not caused by premades

it's caused by sucking.

Edited by Lykaon, 05 January 2013 - 12:39 AM.

[Faldrin]

Lykaon but everyone knows that not every loss is due to pre-made but we also know that pre-mades have a much, yes much high chance to win the way it is now.
Most 4 man's rock 1-2 ECM in pugs and you know it to be true.
Ok this might sound like a personal attack but you sir have your head in the sand. This is a problem most new players get sick of it. If its not there to course problem's then its not a problem any more.


Also the wait, fail, wait, fail to find a match is due to all the clans playing 4 man's. And you guys say its due to balance blah blah blah.
But its not Its due to players sucking!

See what I did there.

Edited by Faldrin, 05 January 2013 - 01:05 AM.

[Galenit]

Lykaon, on 05 January 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

If you puggies had to deal with the crappy 8 mans you would have flooded the forums with your bytchin.

Seriously imagine it. getting at least 6 failures to find a match followed by a drop composed of 8 ecm Atlas mechs.Every time!

Reality check

Blaming crappy 8 mans to defend bitching about pugs that blame crappy 4 mans.

If i look all the discussion, the 8 mans are not the problem, the pugs are not the problem but the groups that cant stand 8 man and split up in small groups to farm pugs are the problem.

Edited by Galenit, 05 January 2013 - 01:41 AM.

[Lykaon]

Faldrin, on 05 January 2013 - 01:04 AM, said:

Lykaon but everyone knows that not every loss is due to pre-made but we also know that pre-mades have a much, yes much high chance to win the way it is now.
Most 4 man's rock 1-2 ECM in pugs and you know it to be true.
Ok this might sound like a personal attack but you sir have your head in the sand. This is a problem most new players get sick of it. If its not there to course problem's then its not a problem any more.


Also the wait, fail, wait, fail to find a match is due to all the clans playing 4 man's. And you guys say its due to balance blah blah blah.
But its not Its due to players sucking!

See what I did there.

Point one: When I do play in 4 man premades I do not synchrodrop and can honestly say the occurance of two four man teams on one side is small.So small as to have minimal impact on win/loss ratios.
So when my team wins we win with 4 pugs.

That's right folks this evil premade player never intentionaly synchrodrops for 8 premade vs 8 poor incompitent puggie smashing.

Every win I get 4 puggies share.Sounds very fair to me.

4 guys in a premade win 4 guys not in a premade win! that is fair as can be.

Now here is a shocker...sometimes my 4 man premade doesn't win...<gasp> I know right? how can this be? Premades always beat puggies ALWAYS!!

Sometimes we lose to a premade on the other team. So our 4 man premade has a loss 4 random puggies get a loss,,,still fair.

Other times we lose to...hold onto ya socks kids fiegnt of heart do not read!...Sometimes my 4 man premade loses to 8 puggies!!! Yes this happens sometimes the 4 man's voice chat and planning and tactics can not prevent 4 hardcore sucky players from getting wasted in 3 seconds flat.
So our 4 man has a loss the 4 puggies get a loss but wait...8 puggies win! so um...fair again.

So essentially the only time agree with the constant cryfest against premades is on the rare occurance of 4 man + 4 man vs 8 puggies and since I know this is an insignificant number of matches I honestly don't get what all the crying is about.

Sometimes puggies fight puggies obviously one team must win so this is fair.

Sometimes a 4 man+4 pugs fights 8 pugs and yes almost always the side with the premade wins but not always this is perfectly fair 8 winners 8 losers 4 pugs get a win or 8 pugs get a win but puggies will always win.

Sometimes we get a 4 man premade on each side...this is fair whoever wins 4 puggies also win.

Point two: no I didn't see what you did there because I can provide hard data on pugies sucking.All I need to do is post the end game scores and list who were my 4 man and who were puggies.Guess who would never have damage numbers under 100? Guess who will have the high assists numbers ? guess who will have the kills?

I will go one further.I am so sure that the average member of my corp will out perform the average puggie I will forgo the use of voice chat and still put up higher values in all things that matter for a victory.

Why is that?

Premade players train to operate as a unit,as a team.Puggies just grab whatever mech is FoTM or on hand and expect to win no matter what they do even if they suck.And when they lose from sucking they blame a premade.

I am not saying every pug sucks. What I am saying is when you lose a match look at the scoreboard objectivley.

How many on your team dealt reasonable damage?
How many assist per team mate?
How many Kills?

I have seen countless examples of complete idiocy in this game and never from a member of my corp.

Is it a magical aura granted by joining a premade? No it's the education in team play you get from playing in a team.

All to often a pug match is a team of 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 VS 8 ALL THOSE ONES ARE NOT WORTH THE ONE EIGHT.


Oh and by the way....

the reason we have the seperated 8 man que is from puggie cryfests.So maybe you are right it's from players sucking yet blaming premades for it.

[Revorn]

Pug only vs Pug only. My Favorite.

[Lykaon]

Galenit, on 05 January 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:

Blaming crappy 8 mans to defend bitching about pugs that blame crappy 4 mans.

If i look all the discussion, the 8 mans are not the problem, the pugs are not the problem but the groups that cant stand 8 man and split up in small groups to farm pugs are the problem.

Read my above post and do some basic math.

Pugs win matches WITH 4 mans I would not be so quick to give the goose that lays your golden wins the boot!

Once you get what you want and no premades only puggies what will you blame the loses on?

Hacks?
No battle value matching?
No skill based matching?
Overpowered paint jobs?


Seriously you wouldn't stand for the lousy 8 man que system we got for an instant.You would jump right back to 4 mans and not look back.

Since you have never experienced it let me try to explain.

Look at your mech bays.
Do you own an Atlas AS7D-DC?
or a Raven 3L?

No? buy one you won't need much of anything else.

Boring!

Edited by Lykaon, 05 January 2013 - 01:59 AM.