162 replies to this topic

[SJ SCP Wolf]

Sug, on 05 January 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

Some people, like myself, only want to pug. We asked devs to keep 8 man teams separate. They did. No one 8 mans. So here we are complaining about premades again.

You don't queue for 8 mans how would you know? We play several hours a night dropping in the 8 man queue. Those aren't bots that we are shooting at.

[King Arthur IV]

so what does op not get? in short please anyone? iz speaking wiz little and small wordz. no in all seriousness, i only got the part about not getting on TS and putting effort to find a group. is there something else im missing??

[merz]

King Arthur IV, on 06 January 2013 - 04:22 AM, said:

so what does op not get? in short please anyone? iz speaking wiz little and small wordz. no in all seriousness, i only got the part about not getting on TS and putting effort to find a group. is there something else im missing??

tldr: people who opt for teamwork in a game clearly designed for teamwork are not somehow deficient, at fault or playing unfairly. it is those stubbornly unwilling to acknowledge this that are. their stock slogans are 'pugs with pugs', which misses the entire point as you are _always dropped as a team_ and any measure of piloting skill is precisely the ability to coordinate with others - something they seem to hold tantamount to cheating. the other thing they propose is 'go play 8-man', which also misses the point that, for one thing, you need to have 8 people online at the same time when you want to do that and, even with the current 8man matchmaking system that does not have bv/tonnage restrictions or player ranking taken into the account, the wait times are hilarious. on an average night, someone trying to drop an 8man on conquest might have 3+ fails in a row, which ultimately just ends up leading to people running 4mans or doubledropping.

I'm all for some kind of solaris gameplay mode that offers straight-up FFA ..- but what stops people from timed-dropping into such games as a team with accusations of unfairness from the unwashed pug masses flooding the gutters?

[Joseph Mallan]

Sears, on 05 January 2013 - 05:42 PM, said:

People have different reasons why they don't want to be in a premade or go on TS. And many of those reasons are completely valid. Such as simply just wanting to hop into a few games here and there(1). Those players should be able to do that. The game needs to improve the commands function so that teams without the convenience of voip can effectively communicate(2). There also needs to be incentives to issue and follow these commands.

The game is a team game yes, and there's not a lot of room for soloing. Perhaps if they release a solaris add(3) on then that would put more emphasis on the solo mech rather than the team, also you can put more traditional multiplayer game modes and have it sort of make sense in the Solaris setting.

When (IF) Community Warfare comes out it will hopefully encourage the use of team work and creating merc outfits and things, non of which are supported in game.

(1) They can just jump into a game. I do it when my team isn't on line. When this happens I don't expect much success, but still have fun stomping the yard.

(2) Having to stop to read a text command is not going to help a lot v a group talking to one another. Lone Wolf players are not going to do well at this team game.

(3) This may be in the works, and could definitely work. Solaris is home to solo "star" players and would suit the Lone Wolves.

[SlXSlXSlX]

If you think the "lone-wolf" players are going to wait around for a "19 patches down the road, semi-plausible" chance to have a solo-fun experience in this game (Solaris), you sir, are an optimist. IE I am asserting if the devs wait to add lone-wolf retaining subject matter until after dealing with the plethora of issues before them, alot of lone-wolf-ish players will have moved along, finding more satisfying solo experiences elsewhere, long before then.

[Joseph Mallan]

SlXSlXSlX, on 06 January 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

If you think the "lone-wolf" players are going to wait around for a "19 patches down the road, semi-plausible" chance to have a solo-fun experience in this game (Solaris), you sir, are an optimist. IE I am asserting if the devs wait to add lone-wolf retaining subject matter until after dealing with the plethora of issues before them, alot of lone-wolf-ish players will have moved along, finding more satisfying solo experiences elsewhere, long before then.

Did I say I was caring? I PUGged for 3 weeks and was getting bored hearing only my Mech stomping and my Weapons firing and my armor being blasted from my Mech. PUGGING is boring for me. No banter, no "got yer back Man". I love being a member Of Murphy's, I like dropping with who ever has room on ComStar. But playing in silence... Blows. COmStar can take a while to get an invite, Murphy's not so much, and I can chat with the guys about builds or last nights killer match. That make me come back to play every day. I had an off night last night, I am not blaming, 8mans, I am not blaming SSRMs or ECM. I had an off night. But for the most part I had fun cause the guys kept the atmosphere light, and we laughed off the losses and toasted the wins, even when I died.

That makes this game awesome to play.

[KuruptU4Fun]

SlXSlXSlX, on 06 January 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

If you think the "lone-wolf" players are going to wait around for a "19 patches down the road, semi-plausible" chance to have a solo-fun experience in this game (Solaris), you sir, are an optimist. IE I am asserting if the devs wait to add lone-wolf retaining subject matter until after dealing with the plethora of issues before them, alot of lone-wolf-ish players will have moved along, finding more satisfying solo experiences elsewhere, long before then.

It's quite possible that Lone Wolves will have servers that are not or will not effect the timeline in any way made available to them when CW is implemented. It's also possible that they will remain part of the same servers they are in now, and in turn then matched up based on their ELO score with others that are also LW's with similar scores. Considering its very likely that people who play in groups ELO score will affect the likelyhood of them playing with other teams that have similar scores as well.

[SlXSlXSlX]

That is good.. im glad you enjoy dropping in 4 mans. I am sure the high win % helps make that experience more enjoyable for you. The more you enjoy "that"... the less we (solo's) enjoy the game.

Your statement, I have fun in 4 mans and as part of a gaming group, did not relate to whether PGI can retain Lone-Wolf players, solely on the basis of hope that solaris might come, someday.

We are jsut speculating that someday loners may have a place.. and thats not very reassuring.

Edited by SlXSlXSlX, 06 January 2013 - 11:40 AM.

[merz]

SlXSlXSlX, on 06 January 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

, alot of lone-wolf-ish players will have moved along, finding more satisfying solo experiences elsewhere, long before then.

good for them. this game isn't for everyone, and its clearly designed as a team endeavour from the ground up. the only thing missing is built-in voice comm. those who'd prefer not to use it would obviously have that choice, but no right to complain as to the outcome of their matches. if you're expecting the developers to backpedal on their vision of the game because some vocal pubbies are frustrated with their own inability to play as intended, you must be deluding yourself.

oh, and the guy above saying something about playing solo - you CAN'T PLAY MWO SOLO. sorry. you can't. hit the launch button and watch another 7 people appear on your team. Is it someone else's fault that trying to play rambo in a team game gets you absolutely slaughtered? oh, the tears..

Edited by merz, 06 January 2013 - 11:43 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

SlXSlXSlX, on 06 January 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

That is good.. im glad you enjoy dropping in 4 mans. I am sure the high win % helps make that experience more enjoyable for you. The more you enjoy "that"... the less we (solo's) enjoy the game.

Your statement, I have fun in 4 mans and as part of a gaming group, did not relate to whether PGI can retain Lone-Wolf players, solely on the basis of hope that solaris might come, someday.

We are jsut speculating that someday loners may have a place.. and thats not very reassuring.

1191W/691L and a 1.11 K/D is not a rollers stats sir. If you are winning close that much as a Lone Wolf, You should be having a blast. 7+ billion people on the planet that is a lot of potential team players. Lone Wolves don't do well in this team oriented combat game... Imagine that!

[Bishop Steiner]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 January 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

1191W/691L and a 1.11 K/D is not a rollers stats sir. If you are winning close that much as a Lone Wolf, You should be having a blast. 7+ billion people on the planet that is a lot of potential team players. Lone Wolves don't do well in this team oriented combat game... Imagine that!

Some folks don't get it, or simply refuse to. For you and I, while anyone prefers a win, I know that we both prefer good hard fought games. We just enjoy them more when we have people to yak with, laugh at, etc.

If W/L and KDr meant a damn to me, I would not have left the Merc Corp I was in, and went pugging. But by being a free (Teamspeak) Agent, I can drop solo or pair up with guys from Murphys, DMH, Steele's, QQ, or whatever, and play to have fun, and not give a crap.

But to the stubborn "PUGS ARE PEOPLE 2!" crowd, the only thing that could POSSIBLY be the draw is the improved win percentage (Imagine that, yes a team game that *gasp* rewards team play), because apparently that is the sole reason to play a game. So anything we say, is just making an excuse for us to "play easy mode"... when in fact we are playing the game the exact way the Devs meant for it to be played.

But because 1) they apparently have no friends, or 2) they need a strawman to blame their lack of success, you will simply continue to see the same circular, and pointless argument.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 06 January 2013 - 11:59 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Just found this tidbit.

Quote

Will faction affiliated players be able to play with lone wolves in the "random matches" at will? –That Guy
[PAUL] Yes. The faction players will have their ranks filled with lone wolves in the event that not enough players can be found for a given match.

So the groups will form the core of battles in certain matches and Lone Wolves will fill the Gaps. Since they have not pledged a loyalty.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 06 January 2013 - 12:09 PM.

[Greyfyl]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 January 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

Some folks don't get it, or simply refuse to. For you and I, while anyone prefers a win, I know that we both prefer good hard fought games. We just enjoy them more when we have people to yak with, laugh at, etc.

If W/L and KDr meant a damn to me, I would not have left the Merc Corp I was in, and went pugging. But by being a free (Teamspeak) Agent, I can drop solo or pair up with guys from Murphys, DMH, Steele's, QQ, or whatever, and play to have fun, and not give a crap.

But to the stubborn "PUGS ARE PEOPLE 2!" crowd, the only thing that could POSSIBLY be the draw is the improved win percentage (Imagine that, yes a team game that *gasp* rewards team play), because apparently that is the sole reason to play a game. So anything we say, is just making an excuse for us to "play easy mode"... when in fact we are playing the game the exact way the Devs meant for it to be played.

But because 1) they apparently have no friends, or 2) they need a strawman to blame their lack of success, you will simply continue to see the same circular, and pointless argument.

While I do think the devs meant the game to be played in a team environment (obviously), you are deluding yourself if you think playing with the huge advantage that a 4man TS team has is 'the exact way the devs meant for it to be played'. You say you want good matches right? I'm pretty sure most of us complaining about pugstomping would be just fine with premades and pugs remaining mixed as long as both teams get premades. I don't see anyone telling you that doing premades should be gotten rid of, so why are you on the defensive?

At the end of the day you are defending something that is defenseless. You are playing at an extreme advantage right now, the why doesn't really matter, it just needs to stop one way or another before the game is nothing left but you 1000 people that can't stop doing anything but pugstomping.

[JSparrowist]

The match making definitely needs fixing.

I play PUG and I drop with casuals. When I pug I'm lucky if my team wins at least half of the matches played. When I drop with other casuals, even without VoIP, we usually win and rarely lose.

Can I drop with a group all the time? No. Can I drop solo whenever I want? Yep. Should PUGs be matched up against groups? Nope.

A quick band-aid to the problem would be to ensure that there is an equal sized premade group on each team. Simple enough and would lessen the "ROFLSTOMP" that happens all the time.

[Joseph Mallan]

Greyfyl, on 06 January 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

I don't see anyone telling you that doing premades should be gotten rid of, so why are you on the defensive?

Well My group was discussing this quite a bit in a match last night. Excluding yourself Grey, Many of the Forum warriors QQ over PUGvPremade are never seen online. I will drop anywhere from 4-14 hours(weekends) and I don't see the QQ posters at all. I hardly see the same names more than 6 times a night.

As to the get rid of Premades discussions.. look back a page or two.

[AlexWildeagle]

Team Leader, on 05 January 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

I honestly never got the whiners either. Most pugs are ok, but when the whiners come here and demand that people playing a team based game as a team get punished, or that playing a team based game as a solo player get made easier for them, without any effort on their part... It's just stupid.

This is the attitude I never understood. No one has asked premades to be pumished, just premades versus premades, it's common sense that coordinated teams take on coordinated teams. If they can't handle that and call it punsihment they need to find another game.
This is a team game, not a premade game. The matchmaker puts together teams quite well.
PGI setup the 4 man max, not the players. That is PGIs call.

The simplest concept people like this don't seem to understand is PUGS=NEW PLAYERS. You don't want your new players getting steamrolled constantly as they will not come back. You need vet PUGs to help the new players so PUGs are extremely important to the games well being and if you're lucky there will always be PUGs (new players). So its important to give them a liveable intro experience. It's that simple.

[Greyfyl]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 January 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

Well My group was discussing this quite a bit in a match last night. Excluding yourself Grey, Many of the Forum warriors QQ over PUGvPremade are never seen online. I will drop anywhere from 4-14 hours(weekends) and I don't see the QQ posters at all. I hardly see the same names more than 6 times a night.

As to the get rid of Premades discussions.. look back a page or two.

Maybe they forum under alt names? Who knows?

I like doing premades myself sometimes, usually because I'm tired of doing 500 damage and seeing that six of my teammates have done 100 damage total between them. I do get the fact that some people are very social, and that they do premades for that reason. But in all honesty, if that is why you are doing premades, why be so adamant about not fixing the current issue?

I see so many people defending premades roflstomping on pugs that just don't seem to grasp how much damage WE have already done to the game by destroying the playerbase, little by little, day after day.

And by the way PGI, this whole freaking mess could have been dealt with so many ways, and SHOULD HAVE been dealt with in the alpha stage. What game developer in their right mind makes a pvp only game and doesn't have any matchmaking in place by open beta? Really PGI?

[Omni Tek]

Greyfyl, on 05 January 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

And once again since you 'don't understand'....


People want to pug, it doesn't matter in the least why; the why is irrelevant. If you don't understand it, yea well, I can't understand how anyone could possibly think that throwing pugs against premades is in any way a good idea. I've heard a million excuses, but at the end of the day 90% of the people doing premades just want easy wins.

Now here comes the important part, so please listen as I'm a really tired of trying to explain this simple concept to people over and over again. This game needs players, lots of players (this is a core concept for the f2p model) and many of these potential players will want to pug; it doesn't matter why - but it's a trait that a decent part of the online gaming community shares. Putting these pug players in games that are consistently stacked against them will (has) certainly drive a decent percentage of those players away to play other games. We need those players to stay here and support this game.

Nobody is telling you that you can't or shouldn't be doing premades, we are simply stating that your free ride at the expense of pug players needs to end. I think you will find that if 4 man premades ONLY got matched against other 4man premades you would see the number of 4 mans drop tremendously....just like we saw when 8mans were released.

So again let me summarize...

Players taking advantage of TS to roflstomp new/pug players = bad for the long term survival of the game.

For those that truly want the social aspect of TS, I have no problem with 4mans in vs pugs as long as both sides have a 4man. I can't possibly see how that would be hard to implement, but at this point it won't happen. Phase 3 is coming so premades have their easy ride until then.

This a thousand times this.

[Joseph Mallan]

Greyfyl, on 06 January 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

Maybe they forum under alt names? Who knows?

Thats lame. I like knowing I am dropping v the guys and gals I'm talking to. Having separate screen names just seems... cowardly. Glad you are like that Grey!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 06 January 2013 - 01:24 PM.

[Omni Tek]

merz, on 06 January 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

good for them. this game isn't for everyone, and its clearly designed as a team endeavour from the ground up. the only thing missing is built-in voice comm. those who'd prefer not to use it would obviously have that choice, but no right to complain as to the outcome of their matches. if you're expecting the developers to backpedal on their vision of the game because some vocal pubbies are frustrated with their own inability to play as intended, you must be deluding yourself.

oh, and the guy above saying something about playing solo - you CAN'T PLAY MWO SOLO. sorry. you can't. hit the launch button and watch another 7 people appear on your team. Is it someone else's fault that trying to play rambo in a team game gets you absolutely slaughtered? oh, the tears..

Have fun on the band wagon.