1063 replies to this topic

[HRR Insanity]

Zyllos, on 07 January 2013 - 08:22 PM, said:

I figured having weapons which only converged with arms (but individual weapons on the arms themselves not converging) and torsos only firing straight would make weapons spread much more when firing from multiple locations while allowing for weapons in single locations to go where you aim them.

Would also think that having no RNG in the aiming would be easier to swallow while still producing more spread in weapons fire. But the original issue still remains, weapon convergence, or in my case, one of the six issues.

I'm completely in favor of this as a possible option to test. I (personally) don't think it will have enough of an effect (too easy to work around and some 'Mechs will be overpowered by nature of their HP configuration). It also doesn't lend itself well to adjustments based on heat/movement as a cone-of-fire would.

However, I just want something tested to address this issue.

Edited by HRR Insanity, 07 January 2013 - 08:31 PM.

[Badconduct]

Bad logic.


8x ML = 8 times the damage in one location

or

8x ML = 8 wasted shots in one quick second.

It's usually option B.

Pooling weapons is better simply because of the fire chain limits. 2 firing chains is optimal on the average 2 button mouse. I can run 4, but the two thumb buttons are not the best.

Simple fix would be the controls. Right click changes the firing chain, left click fires.

[HRR Insanity]

Badconduct, on 07 January 2013 - 08:50 PM, said:

Bad logic.


8x ML = 8 times the damage in one location

or

8x ML = 8 wasted shots in one quick second.

It's usually option B.

Pooling weapons is better simply because of the fire chain limits. 2 firing chains is optimal on the average 2 button mouse. I can run 4, but the two thumb buttons are not the best.

Simple fix would be the controls. Right click changes the firing chain, left click fires.

I may be confused, but I think you're saying that if someone misses the 8 MLs, then they don't do as much damage as 8 MLs fired in sequence?

I'm not sure how your post pertains to my original post. Could you please clarify?

[Panzagl]

Agree with OP 100%- as long as linked weapons hit the same location nothing PGI can do will balance them relative to one another. It's been broken since at least MW2.

I actually have no problem with luck based aiming- it would make things playable for those that use joysticks, bring back the long range game, and would allow PGI to have a much more interesting pilot skill tree. BT/MW should be less about aiming and more about position, fields of fire, and heat/ammo management.

[DamnCatte]

As much as I agree with a lot of the OP's arguments, I think that it would require a major overhaul of how things actually work, which could cause a massive rift in what is admittedly an already skeptical playerbase. I personally think that we as players have simply been utterly spoiled by the idea of a targeting reticule in the first place. Unfortunately, make it more complex, you alienate the casual players, make it simple, and you alienate the dedicated fans...

The best idea I've heard mentioned for the whole convergence issue would be to change the reticule from that little circle to something like an artillery rangefinder. You dont have this little bitty dot that you know your weapons are going to shoot for, but you can still reasonably aim for an opponent; give us a square box to move and aim with that is our area of damage, or 'cone', have it change with heat/firing rates, range, whatever the situation may be. With this, you can still line up and aim for headshots, but it's going to take a little more effort, and a little more luck, to pull it off. I remember battles in TT that consisted of hopelessly targeted lasers firing off into space, and I've had moments of a single lucky shot wasting an assault mech.

I am painfully aware this is not tabletop, but this should at least feel like we're playing with the same toys. You shouldn't expect to hit with absolutely every volley, that was never how Battletech worked. MWO actually made me think a group of Hollanders wouldn't be worthless in TT, and that fact alone should show there is a pretty distinctive rift here.

[HRR Insanity]

Panzagl, on 07 January 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

I actually have no problem with luck based aiming- it would make things playable for those that use joysticks, bring back the long range game, and would allow PGI to have a much more interesting pilot skill tree. BT/MW should be less about aiming and more about position, fields of fire, and heat/ammo management.

This isn't a luck based aiming proposal. This is a skill based proposal. You can choose when to be perfectly accurate. You can also choose to minimize your speed, wait til your heat is low, and fire with a minimal cone of fire.

But yes, the # of potential modules and tactical details this proposal would expose are nearly innumerable.

[Davers]

Honestly, the OP makes good points. If it had been done this way to begin with, I am sure lots of die hard TT fans would be happier. Unfortunately, I can't see them making this large a change this far into the game. Asking them to redesign all the mechs would probably be an easier task compared to changing how shooting works.

[HRR Insanity]

Davers, on 07 January 2013 - 09:29 PM, said:

Honestly, the OP makes good points. If it had been done this way to begin with, I am sure lots of die hard TT fans would be happier. Unfortunately, I can't see them making this large a change this far into the game. Asking them to redesign all the mechs would probably be an easier task compared to changing how shooting works.

Phase it in. Start with groups > 5 weapons. Then > 3. Then move down to all group fire.

It's doable. Just because something is hard doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

I like what they have done for autocannons. They were a terrible weapon in the table top game that always required some buffs not found in the rules. In regards to the 6 ppc / 6 LL configurations, have you seen what happens to those things when they miss. My little raven or jenner rip those stupid configurations wide open if they wander off without support. In regards to the dual gauss rifle it is just as feared in this game as it was in the table top. My only comment would be to nerf ecm for close proximity fighting and make pulse lasers worthwhile again.

[Sug]

How about a cone of fire that expands and contracts based on your movement/rate of fire? Like almost every FPS since 2002.

[HRR Insanity]

Sug, on 07 January 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

How about a cone of fire that expands and contracts based on your movement/rate of fire? Like almost every FPS since 2002.

Agree. And we could finally put into place the heat based 'to hit' modifiers.

Heck, we could even make it so if you're perfectly cool and stationary there is NO cone of fire. So many options to balance the game and make it better....

[Yokaiko]

Sug, on 07 January 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

How about a cone of fire that expands and contracts based on your movement/rate of fire? Like almost every FPS since 2002.

I suggested retical bounce determined by speed, no the cockpit shake we have now the retical actually moves

I got jumped for that one.

I've no idea why convergance is such a sacred cow, the east way to tone it down would be to have all weapons 0 at the end optimal, so that big laser alpha isn't so big if you chest bumping.

[Critical Fumble]

Do want.

Because the weapon values they rip from TT were balanced with damage, heat, range, weight, crits, and individual to-hit and hit location rolls. As is they're trying to balance weapons without the last aspect, and to do that they'd need to rebalance weapon efficiency on some or all the other aspects. That, however, would totally ruin all the stock designs, which they don't seem too keen on doing either.

[smokefield]

gavilatius, on 07 January 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

MWO isnt doomed, it's just lacking. they're still hiring people who have the skillsets they need,

it takes time, and for such a small company on such a big project, more time than expected

well..that would be a problem..we could die until they finish the product, world could end...clans could invade...

Edited by smokefield, 07 January 2013 - 10:05 PM.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

When I will not hit location I aim...then why to aim?
And If they put back armor like it is in TT then it will mean comeback of long range weapons capable of one-shoot kill to cockpit.
We can all go play Mechwarrior tactics...or should only OP if he is so die hard TT player -.-

[WhiteCatInsurgency]

Wouldn't the simplest solution be have weapons multiply heat when fired in groups rather then be additive? As well as heat cooling faster when its at lower amounts?

Though I have always considered it some what odd that weapons fire with pinpoint accuracy. I would definitely be in favour of some slight aiming deviation if anything for immersion. Hell, even make speed affect accuracy. That actually makes sense. Pinpoint at 0kph and a wobbling struggle to stay on target at 100+

Mechwarrior was always a chaotic brawl in my eyes. Not a nice clean simple point, click and hit system. Every single little thing needs to matter and have an impact. But that is just how I see it.

[HRR Insanity]

JudgeDeathCZ, on 07 January 2013 - 10:09 PM, said:

When I will not hit location I aim...then why to aim?
And If they put back armor like it is in TT then it will mean comeback of long range weapons capable of one-shoot kill to cockpit.
We can all go play Mechwarrior tactics...or should only OP if he is so die hard TT player -.-

You did not read.

You can aim to hit with any weapon. You just can not fire GROUPs of weapons together and expect them all to hit the same location.

Head shots are part of the game now. They will always be part of the game. This won't change.

WhiteCatInsurgency, on 07 January 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

Wouldn't the simplest solution be have weapons multiply heat when fired in groups rather then be additive? As well as heat cooling faster when its at lower amounts?

How do you balance non-heat producing weapons like the Gauss then? 2-3 Gauss hitting the same spot is just as overpowered as 8 Medium lasers hitting the same spot. This needs to be a weapon fix, not a heat fix.

Quote

Though I have always considered it some what odd that weapons fire with pinpoint accuracy. I would definitely be in favour of some slight aiming deviation if anything for immersion. Hell, even make speed affect accuracy. That actually makes sense. Pinpoint at 0kph and a wobbling struggle to stay on target at 100+

Exactly. Slight increase in cone of fire when moving at above walking... bigger when running. But still perfectly accurate with single weapons. Gunnery should be important still.

Quote

Mechwarrior was always a chaotic brawl in my eyes. Not a nice clean simple point, click and hit system. Every single little thing needs to matter and have an impact. But that is just how I see it.

Agree. Currently, heat doesn't really have an effect. I can be at 1% or 89% heat... no difference in movement speed or the accuracy of my next alphastrike.

Edited by HRR Insanity, 07 January 2013 - 10:18 PM.

[Dirus Nigh]

Man from the thread title I really thought it was going to be a particular well known profit of doom from closed beta.

Tell me why my beam of light has to be as inaccurate as a smooth bore musket?

Like weapons mounted in torsos are made so their fire converges with each other. Just like the machine guns in a P-51 Mustang. It would be just stupid not to do this. A pilot could set pairs of weapons to converge at different ranges. Again P-51 pilots did this depending what worked for them.

I must ask, if a WW2 pilot, or any real world pilot, or any gunner, could have a weapon system that would automatically change the convergence point as needed I don't think they would scream OP. Then demand that the accuracy of their weapons be down graded.

In the world of Battletech weapons are made to do just that. Each weapon is fitted with small actuators that will adjust the convergence automatically depending on the range to target.

I can not possibly think you have not noticed but weapons in MWO do take a small amount of time to converge on a point. If you fire off a pair of lasers and sweep them across objects at different ranges, the beams will cross at the shorter point. They need to adjust. That is why we have a pilot skill that effects this very thing. Most players take a moment to aim their weapons, so the adjustment is not even noticed.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

HRR Insanity, on 07 January 2013 - 10:16 PM, said:

You did not read.

You can aim to hit with any weapon. You just can not fire GROUPs of weapons together and expect them all to hit the same location.

Head shots are part of the game now. They will always be part of the game. This won't change.

yeah but its easier to headshot with 1 GR than with 1 ML and faster.
SO I am using pretty basic config on stk-3F(4xML,2xERLL,2xSRM6,2xLRM10,AMS) and I am not allowed to hit same location with my 2xERLL when my 2xERLL doing 3 more dmg than 1xGR and for so much more heat?Thats rly bad.This will force ppl to use one pinpoint hard-hitting weapons(AC20,GR and in future HAG,RAC5,UAC20) over other doing less dmg per weapon but doing more in groups(ERML,ERSL) so it will force them to use specific mechs(jaggermech over swayback) to be succesful so we will be back in same situation...

[Dirus Nigh]

Yokaiko, on 07 January 2013 - 10:01 PM, said:

I suggested retical bounce determined by speed, no the cockpit shake we have now the retical actually moves

I got jumped for that one.

I've no idea why convergance is such a sacred cow, the east way to tone it down would be to have all weapons 0 at the end optimal, so that big laser alpha isn't so big if you chest bumping.

This is the best proposal I have read dealing with the convergence topic. Battlefield, Arma, Ghost Recon, and even Call of Duty games have done this. The function of the mechanic was to simulate inaccuracy based on movement and recoil. It would be a better system to simulate a mechs energy and ballistic weapons making adjustments based on movement, recoil, and being hit by weapons fire.