442 replies to this topic

[Xenoid]

Hey Taron,

So is your solution to start a match and then tell everybody in game that you quit and then disconnect, leaving your teammates one mech down? Because that's exactly what you did in a game last night I was in, and the strange part is, there weren't any Ravens to be found in the match.

So...you are a quitter AND a whiner?

[Caboose30]

So, what you're saying is that if they dropped ECM and all missile weapons, the game would be just as good? It'd have the same balance after all.

ICEFANG13, on 10 January 2013 - 12:23 AM, said:

Yes drop the inferior weapon systems and accept that LRMs and SSRMs are worthless! Use only direct fire weapons.

Also ECM is super balanced, it makes gameplay the best ever! I love how it removes weapon groups.

To be fair, if all 4 of your light mechs died to their 4 Ravens, well, that's it, you are down 4 to 8 probably. And most players are playing Ravens, with the occasional 2X or 4X to get master for their 3L.

[Arnold Carns]

Kenshar, on 10 January 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

Fact: Ecm has drastically reduced the diversity of mechs and mech builds seen on the battle field.

True. You'll most likely see only Commandos, Ravens and Atlas D-DCs in team games. The last time I saw a Centurion was in a PUG. Why working to put in the Spider or advertise Hero 'Mechs like Y-L-W, Fang and Muromets which almost nobody uses?

Fix ECM to the effects it should offer by the TT Rules:
- affect BAP
- negate Artemis IV missile clustering
- negate NARC missile clustering
- affect C³ Network

ECM doesn't make your or anyone elses 'Mech invisible nor untargetable:

"Narc Missile Beacon: Missiles equipped to home in on an
attached NARC pod lose the Cluster Hits Table bonus for that
system if the pods themselves lie within an ECM “bubble.” The
NARC launcher itself (standard and iNarc) is not affected by ECM."
(Classic BattleTech 35101 - Total Warfare, Page 234)

[Carmaga]

I pilot Raven, Hunchback and Centurion. Centurion is my favourite and my main mech. I've built ECM Raven for 8-mech drops (dies there quite fast if it gets targeted).

Yesterday we had pre-made team with 4 ravens. We wanted to have some fun before PGI balances the ECM (hopefully with the announced spider mech) and brings back trip'ng (somewhere in the future) and fixes the lag shield. And I have to admit, we were unstoppable. And on the contrary, when we went back to our brawlers -- our team didn't have ecm's neither light mechs while the enemy had them all. But with a good strategy and coordination via TeamSpeak we managed to win (uh, not always - sometimes we were totally annihilated ).

But when I'm playing alone as normal pug, it gets timely frustrating (and unfair) when there is 3-5 150kph lag-shielded lights running around you -- while your team has nothing to counter. Balancing the drops would be awesome. Eg. both teams having equal amount of lights and ecm's. But there will probably be issues in that too.

This is why I wish that developers would implement an easy to use and built-in voip system in-to MWO. Communication is the key to counter the enemy despite the variants you or your enemy is piloting. And without communication, there's nothing much you can do. You can try to write to team chat but timely things are too hectic for that.

Edit: you remember what developers announced when they presented ECM?

Quote

"We would also like to remind people that the ECM is not all powerful."

And this is true! ECM is not all powerful weapon. To go against ecm with non-ecm team, you need a fluent way to communicate. Atm you need to resort to pre-made teams and TS3.

Edited by Carmaga, 10 January 2013 - 11:28 AM.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Allow me to sum up this thread, which is pretty much just a duplicate of the ECM feedback thread.

Dear PGI:

Rock is overpowered, please nerf. Paper is fine.

Sincerely,

Scissors.


FFS, Skill beats ECM, so go GET some. LMAO!

Edited by Sir Roland MXIII, 10 January 2013 - 11:25 AM.

[ICEFANG13]

Pilotasso, on 10 January 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

ECM is overrated, lets consider this:

Whats different and the same in a Raven 3L and In an atlas D-DC?

Common denominator: they both have ECM.

variables: the atlas is slow and has a big torso easely hit by direct fire, the raven is so small and quick and hard to destroy.

Simplifying the equation by removing ECM from both members: ECM doesnt really matter, hitboxes and collisions is then in evidence.


Practical result, the ATLAS is easely destroyable, the Raven is not.



.

Why do you assume that they both have ECM?

Oh right, it does too much for 1.5 tons, 2 slots, and no drawbacks, and anyone that doesn't use it on a build that can is a fool.

Seriously, ANYONE? Does anyone have a 3L/2D/3M/D-DC build that doesn't use ECM? Everything else in game is weight/reward/drawbacks, ECM is not, and it would be insane to leave it at this power level with no drawbacks.

[ICEFANG13]

Unless one of the Spiders (or even all) have ECM, we won't be seeing them at all. Even if JJs work great, you have (any 2 of the 4) slow, low armored, no jump-jet, no weaponry light mech without ECM. Its like if Cicadas and Commandos had a baby, and then left it in the dumpster. ECM defines light mechs now, if you don't have it, or something extreme (such as the Jenner-F, no other lights have 5, most don't have 4, energy hardpoints), they won't be used.

Seriously, looking at Spiders, anyone who buys them is insane. I suspect Flamers and MGs will be buffed too, otherwise, I'd guarantee all the Spiders (95%^) will be gone in a week.

[Doomstryke]

Solution! take an A1 cat put artimis srm 6's on it with an xl 295 fly up behind a raven and 1 shot alpha strike any light = dead

If he starts circling you hit back space and hold down you mouse button to chain fire. Eventually he will circle through the mess get legged then alpha. Lights are pretty easy to deal with even with lag when using SRMs. Same works with balistics .

you don't need that red box to shoot stuff and lights might be a pain but you only need to land 1 good shot to be done with them.

Plus most light pilots are terrible and will run in straight line or stand behind your heavy’s without noticing that there are other players around. 9/10 i usually destroy a light that is almost standing still behind Stalkers and atlas. dual ac20 to the back and move on. ECM is really not that bad. don't rely on locks.

Or get someone on your team to use tag on there ligths and have a missile boat destroy them before they can even get near your boats. If your lights on your team can make it to there base in less than a minute they can also sneak and tag them for you as well. Use team work. Also don't forget you can dead aim your lrms.

Edited by Doomstryke, 10 January 2013 - 12:01 PM.

[steelblueskies]

can anyone find an actual source for this guys posting spam of

Syllogy, on 10 January 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Garth confirmed yesterday that no ECM changes are on the books for now.

His reasoning behind this was sound:

Despite the extremely vocal posts on the forums, ECM is still only averages 1-2 per team in PUG matches, and only 3-4 per team in 8v8 matches, with declining numbers every week.

If ECM was truly overpowered, those numbers would be at least doubled.

so far i can't, so it seems like opinion warfare through spam has begun.


also in a related note, read through the pcgamer preview article on the transformers mmo.

sounded awfully familiar. i got an especially large bit of amusement when they covered systems that can throw up a temporary screen blocking the use of lock on to fire based weapons in that title.

"Much of Universe’s combat design emphasises teamplay. Consider, for example, equipment such as the chaff cloud, which prevents enemies from getting the lock-on that rocket launchers and sniper rifles require to fire. Deposit that cloud in front of Vanquish as he hunkers and he’s got enough cover to loose off a round in relative safety. Other equipment will provide the ability to avoid radar detection, and invisibility."

finding the same contemporary mechanics elsewhere that sound more feature complete, in a different franchise universe, while we drift away from this franchises roots. and have progress ebb by the day.

http://www.pcgamer.c...h-the-robo-mmo/

so seriously, we have regioned player per map limited mining point control with similar mixes of weapon system mechanics.

it's eerily familiar. and hey sounds like they have melee going on to boot.

sigh.

it isn't the first functionally similar title, and it won't be the last.

[HiplyRustic]

Bad Brad Keselowski, on 10 January 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

When I have 3 or more ECM-Ravens spawning in my team in PUG-games, I try to shoot them in the leg and if not possible anywhere where I can hit them with my AC/20. I have absolutely no problem with that, since they are destroying other ppl's gaming experience with deliberate intention.

As near as I can tell, you just posted an admission to a bannable offense.

[Blood78]

ICEFANG13, on 10 January 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

Unless one of the Spiders (or even all) have ECM...

One of spiders variants (SDR-7Kr) in the future during jihad time is ECM capable but none of the variants MWO currently is releasing is ECM capable.

[Suko]

I mentioned this same thing weeks ago. For anyone claiming that this "isn't a big deal", I hope they face it for themselves. There is so little you can do against 4 ravens running streaks and ECM and getting some kind of bonus from their lag shields.

http://mwomercs.com/...00#entry1580800

Edited by ShadowVFX, 10 January 2013 - 01:00 PM.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

ShadowVFX, on 10 January 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

I mentioned this same thing weeks ago. For anyone claiming that this "isn't a big deal", I hope they face it for themselves. There is so little you can do against 4 ravens running streaks and ECM and getting some kind of bonus from their lag shields.

http://mwomercs.com/...00#entry1580800

I've been up against it and won, and I've done this myself and lost. Complaining about this is pointless because frankly it CAN be beat, and even if ye fail to win against this tactic it doesn't mean it can't be beat, it just means YOU can't beat it.

Practice makes perfect, so practice and overcome, rather than coming here and whining about it. The former leads to people who are better players, the latter leads to people who get better at whining.

Edited by Sir Roland MXIII, 10 January 2013 - 01:07 PM.

[Xandre Blackheart]

I can neither confirm nor deny that running 8 commando 2d is funny as hell.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Xandre Blackheart, on 10 January 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

I can neither confirm nor deny that running 8 commando 2d is funny as hell.

Especially if they're all painted blue and refer to themselves as Murder Smurfs.

[Alex Wolfe]

Sir Roland MXIII, on 10 January 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

Allow me to sum up this thread, which is pretty much just a duplicate of the ECM feedback thread.

Dear PGI:

Rock is overpowered, please nerf. Paper is fine.

Sincerely,

Scissors.

FFS, Skill beats ECM, so go GET some. LMAO!

Is this trolling, or are you just sorely mistaken in your rush to use tired slogans?

Allow me to explain the crux of the problem:

Rock (ECM) beats scissors (LRM and streaks).

Rock (ECM) beats rock (ECM).

Rock (ECM) beats paper (ECM-less mechs, including TAG-equipped, since you can't TAG a moving target and paint it with your own missiles due to lagshield, while ECMers can both jam and fight unimpended).

Scissors (LRM and streaks) beat paper (ECM-less mechs, because lagshield again).

Some mechs are both Rock and Scissors at once (3Lagraven, streakmando, Atlas).

...clear enough that there might be a balance problem somewhere?

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 10 January 2013 - 01:54 PM.

[Woodat]

Xandre Blackheart, on 10 January 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

I can neither confirm nor deny that running 8 commando 2d is funny as hell.

You, sir, are my hero for the day. Or, at least tied with Sir Roland and his Smurf comment.

*goes off to repaint his commando*

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Alex Wolfe, on 10 January 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Is this trolling, or are you just sorely mistaken in your rush to use tired slogans?

Neither. It was a metaphor.

Alex Wolfe, on 10 January 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Allow me to explain the crux of the problem:

Rock (ECM) beats scissors (LRM and streaks).

Rock (ECM) beats rock (ECM).

Rock (ECM) beats paper (ECM-less mechs, including TAG-equipped, since you can't TAG a moving target and paint it with your own missiles due to lagshield, while ECMers can both jam and fight unimpended).

Scissors (LRM and streaks) beat paper (ECM-less mechs, because lagshield again).

Some mechs are both Rock and Scissors at once (3Lagraven, streakmando, Atlas).

...clear enough that there might be a balance problem somewhere?

And this is why metaphors can be taken too literally. My Rock Paper Scissors comment had nothing to do with this analysis, it was merely about how some people are countered by some tactics, while others are not. The endless whining about ECM is OP please nerf has been tiresome for quite some time and I long ago gave up taking anyone seriously when they said it.

Except, however, in your case. You bring up specific points and builds and that's good, but this is also lacking perspective.

First off, as this is beta, it's entirely likely that what we have now will not be what it is at release.

Second, what we have now may have a counter coming down the line that we are unaware of.

Third, there's several ways to give well thought out feedback, yours was one example of this, the OP to whom my post was in response to was NOT.

Therefore I am happy to take YOU serious, whereas him, not so much. Still, I was not trolling. I have played with ECM and without, I have won without ECM, I have won AGAINST ECM, I have lost with ECM, and I have lost against ECM.

ECM is a TOOL. It is being used in both the manner in which it was intended and, in a few cases, manners in which it was not. My two cents is that ECM as it stands is probably too good and many of the reasons are what you listed there. However I refuse to sit here and whine about it for two reasons. ONE - I do not whine, period. TWO - I try to counter tools such as ECM and the tactics they are used for with skill, tactics and tools of my own, and above all BRAINS.

As a tool, ECM cannot fight for you, YOU must fight for IT. Therefore it is the pilots responsibility to pilot, and the tools duty to be a tool. If a mechanic fixes your car wrong, do you blame the mechanic, or his tools? Coming to the forums and whining about ECM is blaming the tool. Staying ingame and figuring out how to beat it is blaming the mechanic. Skill will easily beat ECM used without skill. ECM is not an equalizer, for anyone other than former A1 Streaksauce pilots.

In the end, because practice makes perfect, people should beware what they practice - people who game to win usually become better at winning. People who come to the forums to whine wusually only become better at whining. By way of example, I'm currently working on art and posting here at times, and therefore gaining skill in both of those as well as multi-tasking. Later on I might get in MW:O and practice there, too. But I will not practice passing judgement on pieces of this game when the game is incomplete, because it's ridiculous and I do not wish to get better at that.

In the future we will get more tools, mechs, maps - features and content, etc. Many of these will change the paradigm that came before them. Much like ECM changed the paradigm before it. Not everyone has anything useful or well thought out to say about change but one thing is certain, and that is change. Also, people who whine about change. One thing that one must HOPE for is well thought out replies to change, such as you wrote.

For the most part, I agree with your analysis but I also look at things such as Role Warfare, Community Warfare, Info Warfare, and smaller things such as Pilot Skills - all systems which are currently missing ingame, either in whole or in part, and compared to that the current state of ECM doesn't seem imbalanced. I will be more interested in seeing THOSE features ingame before I pass judgement on some mere tool such as ECM.

So for those who insisit on crying about a tool such as ECM in an everchanging game environment I have three responses - first off, wait and be patient. Second off, stop crying and say something useful if you want it brought in line. And thrid and final, in the end skill can beat ECM, so keep playing and getting better at the game and ECM won't seem so terrible.

Edited by Sir Roland MXIII, 10 January 2013 - 02:37 PM.

[JayVrb]

Blitz Krieg, on 10 January 2013 - 12:52 AM, said:

The team with ECM can call targets, the team without can't

HUGE advantage in that regard. Coordination wins in this game, and ECM makes enemy coordination a lot harder. All for 1.5 tons.

This. And if you won't accept any other argument, you HAVE to accept that this is the game changer and one of the most single obvious reasons ECM is overpowered.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Vrbas, on 10 January 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

This. And if you won't accept any other argument, you HAVE to accept that this is the game changer and one of the most single obvious reasons ECM is overpowered.

This is actually a good point, and I agree mostly, however target calling becomes difficult, not impossible. As a scout post-ECM I just got used to calling out designation, and also mech chassis and location and heading. I would do this before but not as a rule.

Still it's not nearly as easy anymore to call targets. I don't mind a challenge but that IS one thing that ECM makes difficult, I agree, and could stand to have changed.

Edited by Sir Roland MXIII, 10 January 2013 - 02:34 PM.