442 replies to this topic

[ICEFANG13]

Its impossible in PUGs.

I also do not want to just adapt, I want PGI to change it because I think something is wrong with it. I can kill ECM mechs fine (after I 'adapted' my missiles off my mechs), but I don't like it for how powerful it is, at only 1.5 tons and 2 slots, its insane. I want everything to be balanced in this game, and as a Beta tester, I intend to give feedback.

[Lupus Aurelius]

steelblueskies, on 10 January 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

can anyone find an actual source for this guys posting spam of
...

Just did a review of all the posts by Garth that I could find on the forums. There is no such statement.

Syllogy needs to provide an actual link to the actual statement.

Otherwise, we call bull...

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 10 January 2013 - 05:41 PM.

[DreyfussFrost]

So did MW players just never learn how to lead for lag, or what?

Agreed that it's stupid that we even need to, but if you can do the mental trigonometry to determine how far you need to lead for your target's velocity, is it that much harder to factor in lag?

No disagreement that the netcode needs to be improved, but you guys are talking about "lagshield" like it's impenetrable. The only people who should be having any issues are those completely new to online gaming which, considering the learning curve this game presents, should be nobody. Personally, I'm far more annoyed at how useless LRMs become when there are multiple enemy ECMs, since I kind of enjoy LRM boating.

[Alex Wolfe]

Vrbas, on 10 January 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

This. And if you won't accept any other argument, you HAVE to accept that this is the game changer and one of the most single obvious reasons ECM is overpowered.

Indeed. This is the single ability of ECM that makes me really dislike it, and takes it from "useful (vs. MISSILE)" to absolutely ludicrous. For 1.5 tons and 2 crits you slaughter teamwork and whatever coordination pubs can handle.

ECM isn't even supposed to do that, blocking radar locks is what null signature system does, and even that is only for the carrier and not sphere.

If ECM stays this way, invisible Clans are a possibility, something that never happens in lore.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 10 January 2013 - 06:16 PM.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Alex Wolfe, on 10 January 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

Indeed. This is the single ability of ECM that makes me really dislike it, and takes it from "useful (vs. MISSILE)" to absolutely ludicrous.

ECM isn't even supposed to do that, blocking radar locks is what null signature system does.

ECM vs null signature system?

As I recall, and as I believe sarna states, ECM was a 3 hex radius, or 6 hex radius (I forget which), aura radiated from the ECM equipped mech that prevented missile lock and/or made missile lock diffficult (IE to hit modifier). So I'm guessing what ye meant was that null prevents info of yourself being scanned or some such?

EDIT - I should add I have no experience with null signature system so I could be wrong.

Edited by Sir Roland MXIII, 10 January 2013 - 06:20 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

As much as ECM ravens make me want to ragequit this game, I only hope that more and more people gravitate to ECM ravens until the servers are empty because this is ECM-Raven Warrior online.

[Khell DarkWolf]

my only real problem with ECM is the implementation that it removes friendlies from your minimap.

Such a heavy usage on keeping track of your teammates to coordinate creates chaos and cluster mess ups when you can't find where your buddies are. You can't communicate well if you don't know where they are.

If you could atleast see your allies inside the bubble, I think this wouldn't be as much of a problem as it currently is with ravens and commandos running around like bee's.

I posted a feedback suggestion in the thread: http://mwomercs.com/...eplay-feedback/

[Stonefalcon]

Tolkien, on 10 January 2013 - 01:39 AM, said:

7) Take 2x tons of SSRM2 ammo placing them in the foot and in the head. If those locations are taking internal damage you have bigger problems anyway.

This is a nagging thorn in my side. Don't put the ammo in the legs.

The numero uno spot when I'm shooting a raven is the legs. Getting a leg with ammo knocked out insta kills your mech. Put the ammo in the arms.

From what I have found if ammo in your arms goes off the arm just blows off without loss of mech.

[ICEFANG13]

Yes I suggest all players who hate ECM start using Raven-3Ls, its not like they have counter builds. Let PGI know that its wrong and show it off.

[Alex Wolfe]

Sir Roland MXIII, on 10 January 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

ECM vs null signature system?

Guardian ECM is supposed to interfere with "guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems" within 180 meters of the jammer. The end. It takes 2 slots and weighs 1.5 tons.

Null Signature System is an extremely lost lostech that cloaks the carrier's heat output and electronic emissions. It takes 7 slots in three torsos and limbs, and when active it generates 1 heat per second. Also, one crit is all it takes to disable it. Also, Clans never, ever, everest ever use it.

Now... "our" ECM cloaks electronic emissions (although not heat), not only for the carrier, but also for everything within 180 meters. It also jams systems, including radar, within 180 meters. So it's an unholy union of the two (actually closer to the better Angel ECM + null sig), AoE, for only the cost of the first one.

Way, way, way too much of a good thing.

Sir Roland MXIII, on 10 January 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

[snipped]

Sorry, it seems I have misjudged you.

Allow me to clarify then: the old forum saying "Rock is overpowered, please nerf. Paper is fine. Sincerely, Scissors" only fits when it's someone complaining about being weak to something he's supposed to be weak to, with another logical counter in existence (for example, TF2 medics complaining about spies, when pyros exist to steamrolls spies and medic is supposed to be weak to them. R-P-S relationship).

Meanwhile, it's not just MISSILE users who complain about ECM, and ECM has no true counter besides ECM. Neither does carrying ECM, besides making MISSILE powerless, make them in any way vulnerable to direct fire, so there is no drawback to it. Quite the contrary - inability to see health, loadout, or see where the previous shot actually went hampers the ability to combat ECM unit in direct fire, besides extreme close range, and the non-ECM team's teamwork as a whole.

I agree that ECM is a tool and won't play for the person. The whole point is that this tool is too powerful for the negligible cost/skill required, is way too lenient, synergizes with the lagshield in a horrid way, and disrupts the other team's communication... while it would be way worth the weight for just the MISSILE immunity alone. Also, a lagraven (hard enough to hit through bothced hitboxes alone) with streaks (that need no aim), going full speed, immune to other streaks... is about as "plays itself" config as it gets.

In the future, more tools may come out, but all I can say is currently ECM is blatantly overpowered, only somewhat justified for the time being as a counter to overpowered guided missiles. I don't know the future, but I should hope it's ECM and missiles that are cut down to size, rather than them being the new standard and heralding power creep.

Disrupting communication, inability to call targets easily or see their health... is just adding insult to injury that is lack of fully functional voice comm system in MWO.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 10 January 2013 - 07:07 PM.

[Paralax]

Why do I get no reward when I am running with my 8 man Raven Group and we are EMC jamming out the pubbies, and I am all in the Commanders Chair, and calling the moves, and shouting GOOSE EJECT.. EJECT.... but... still....

Commanding should offer a way to earn extra exp... even if people vote or just a blanket exp.... WHY have it and expect someone to do it if there is no gain?

Edited by Paralax, 10 January 2013 - 07:26 PM.

[Fut]

Paralax, on 10 January 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

WHY have it and expect someone to do it if there is no gain?

I'm not totally against the idea of Commanders getting a little bonus. It's a big job to undertake, and a huge part of the game as a whole.... which brings me to your comment quoted above.

It's expected that somebody will be commanding the drop because it's the most efficiently way to victory.

Also, shouldn't this be in suggestions or something?

[Ryvucz]

I agree, EMC is overpowered.

Where can I get it?

But on a more serious note, I can only imagine everyone equipping the Command Console, spending all match fighting over command for just a few XP or just use it once and drop from the match.

[borisof007]

Ryvucz, on 10 January 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

I agree, EMC is overpowered.

Where can I get it?

But on a more serious note, I can only imagine everyone equipping the Command Console, spending all match fighting over command for just a few XP or just use it once and drop from the match.

From your friendly neighborhood network hardware retailer.

Also, ECM not overpowered, learn to adapt.

DO IT.

DO AS I COMMAND.

http://youtu.be/JiXPA5gB1Q0?t=8s

[StalaggtIKE]

Ryvucz, on 10 January 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

I agree, EMC is overpowered.

Where can I get it?

But on a more serious note, I can only imagine everyone equipping the Command Console, spending all match fighting over command for just a few XP or just use it once and drop from the match.

Yeah. I'm sure it will lead to this.

borisof007, on 10 January 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

Also, ECM not overpowered, learn to adapt buy a RVN-3L.

FIXED.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 10 January 2013 - 07:57 PM.

[dscruffy1]

Paralax, on 10 January 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

Why do I get no reward when I am running with my 8 man Raven Group and we are EMC jamming out the pubbies, and I am all in the Commanders Chair, and calling the moves, and shouting GOOSE EJECT.. EJECT.... but... still....

Commanding should offer a way to earn extra exp... even if people vote or just a blanket exp.... WHY have it and expect someone to do it if there is no gain?

This man speaks the gospel. His qualities as a commander are unparalled and deserve an XP bonus. Our ECMs would be worthless without his direction.

[nostra]

Well i'm definitely against someone running 8 ravens >.>

but i do agree, there doesn't particularly seem to be a huge need for the command console at this point.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Thanks for both explanations, Alex. I begin to see why people have been griping about the tonnage / crit space of ECM, even if it only took one ability out of NSS.

I'll try to leave a brief reason as to why I say not to hate ECM as Skill trumps it. It does, but I will admit it does create problems. While a game that lacks challenge is boring I agree with many points you make about ECM - doing too much, obfuscating damage chart / designation, etc. What I disagree with is that it creates broken builds. It does, but it's not the only tool that does so. Streaks for instance. But I know from personal experience that ECM is the be all end all it's being made out to be. I'm not the best pilot in this game but I can outplay ECM whether or not I have it. Tag and ECM help counter ECM, but wits and skill are better at it than those two.

I think in the end, I should probably go ahead and read the ECM feedback... I'd been avoiding it since what I heard ingame and here on forums outside of that thread was not encouraging, and didn't sound the least bit helpful. But you raise some great points, and I think taking a look is overdue.

As for four man Raven squads, what I call "murders of crows", I've participated in them, and against them. I admit they are tough to deal with, but so are many other things in this game. StreakComm HalfCats, for example, are another ECM inspired one, but I can beat those, and I have beaten murders of crows, and even lost AS a murder of crows. It's not foolproof. ECM isn't a full-on breakage of the game - anyone that was here when they introduced Artemis can recall one of two times this game was actually BROKEN.

The post ECM paradigm isn't the other one (no, that would be Trollmandos, a game breaker that just kept on breaking). They fixed that Artemis breakage within two days. This one will take longer because it's not nearly as bad, and also because it has counters inbound - Pilot Skills, for one, will have elements in the previewed Scouting and Command Trees that, in the right hands, will make ECM seem as dangerous as a Mr Potato Head.

At this point now, I think I've seen some good points made that make me think that something does need to be done. To be fair, I knew that ECM would be nerfed eventually and I was already ok with that. But now, I plan to see about helping with that, as someone who's PoV on ECM is that it isn't a huge problem, but it is a problem.

Edited by Sir Roland MXIII, 10 January 2013 - 08:33 PM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Quote

... working as intended.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 10 January 2013 - 08:30 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

Jesus Box, on 10 January 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

Hello, my children. Many heretics have come to disrupt my power, but you must not them take away your faith in me. Let us remember the days when missiles soured freely across the skies and killed many of our loved ones. But I will never let that happen again. So long as you keep your faith in me, I will protect you. For my power is divine, and our cause righteous. All praise me, so foul evil missiles shall never return to smite us again.

So sayeth the wise who couldn't find cover or teammates with AMS.