442 replies to this topic

[Ceric]

I came in to agree that ECM is a clumsy solution for the Missile problem and does way to much.

Personally ECM should either prevent locks OR remove you from the Mini-map. Especially since its not really a radar type of map.

Also like the idea of an ECM only lengthing the time to target and I will one up that by saying that it if it gets switched to that it should also give like a 50% chance per missile that they lose lock and veer for anyone effected by ECM.

On the LRMs, they are way to over powered. Last night I had a game where I was CORED by LRMs. No real damage anywhere but center. I'm fairly sure I was LoS of the shooter so Artemis shouldn't have been effective, if I read the last patch change correctly. Either way with Artemis LRMs should hit randomly your full Torso, LT-CT-RT. Without Artemis LRMs should be hitting like Machine Guns do with random body parts, still hitting but not grouped.

[Araara]

StUffz, on 11 January 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

I was "stalking" only a field or one and a half field behind them and watched out that I was not flanked or an enemy mech was at my back. In one scenario I made a mistake and we went through tunnel. This was to my diasadvantage because I was not able to rain LRM during tunnel combat.

By the way, it is still possible to rain LRM, but I really advise/suggest to look for fixed unit. This makes everything a lot easier. Regardless of the ECM issue or not.

ECM is just a big support system but as soon as you are in a combat group and you follow target order, not even ECM can protect or jam effectively the amount of incoming damage.

It actually does increase your effective armor. The group with less ECM are being denied enemy mech damage info, meaning they have more trouble focusing on already damaged points. This means the group with more ecm can soak up more damage, thus taking more time to kill and surviving longer in general.

[Truesight]

Well i think that ECM should be like TT (5 Slot 7 tons). So ECM Mechs would have smaller engines (lights) or less weapons to play with (Atlas). Sure, 7 tons would hit a Raven quite hard, even an Atlas will have problems loosing 5 Slots in one of his side Torsos or the Arm? But ECM Mechs would be slower or a little bit "inferior" to standard Mechs without ECM.

[Sandslice]

ForestGnome, on 11 January 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

you're all forgetting that the BAP is supposed to counter a mech in an ECM shroud.

You're thinking of Bloodhound (which counters Guardian and most other stealth systems, but is only stopped by Angel ECM.) Beagle doesn't defeat Guardian normally.

[shotokan5]

If you see it, it can die. I honestly have had no better games with or against one. Smaller and faster mechs can kill an ECM atlas just as easy than any other one.

[UrbatOrbi]

and again:

ECM is not the prob

THE RAVEN is it!

[Woodat]

Merlevade, on 11 January 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

Let's be honest here, all Commandos, even ECM ones are a joke to kill.

You say that, but my kill count for 1 game the other night in my ECM commando was as follows:

1 Atlas (60% health)
1 dragon (72% health)
1 centurion (80% health)
1 stalker (96% health)
1 cataphract (84% health)
and I was rounding on the last atlas (though a leg shot had me limping) when the game ended.

I'd spent the entire game resource capping while my team engaged the enemy over the lake. Unfortunately my team got cut down rather badly, taking only 2 with them. As I was racing to assist my last teammate I watched him pop from that first atlas. Seeing it already damaged and fleeing back to home I raced to it on the water, and two volleys later it dropped in glorious vengance.

About that time my mech shook, and turning I saw he was racing back to rejoin the other 4 large mechs marching up behind him. Quickly racing for cover, I dragged the fast moving centurion into the hills with me. A quick double-back put me behind it and I tore the thing's arms and armour off before dropping it. The dragon meanwhile had moved to the edge of the lake to assist in the pursuit. Racing back out there I circled it, blasting away for a moment before climbing a hill it had backed up against in fear. Leaping down onto it with another volley it exploded, toppling over.

This just left a phract and a stalker standing on the lake, angrily blazing away at me. Kicking my speed tweaked xl195 into gear I just zig-zagged as close as I possibly could to the stalker. From there I circled between the two mechs in a staggered figure-8 approach, constantly trying to ensure that one of them was always blocking the other one's shot and always changing speed and heading to never give them a clear shot.

My team was screaming at that point to gain distance and go recap the flags a far-off atlas was taking, but I realised if I gave any range on these heavies they'd one-shot me. So, pressing as close as I could without running into one (and losing my speed because of) I just pummeled away at the stalker until it dropped. The chat went silent for a few seconds as I focused on the now freaked out phract, punching it every time I had a clear shot at its centre torso. It tried racing towards the terrain in a desperate attempt to escape my commando of death but dropped as it backed itself into a mountain.

My team, now cheering me on as I turned to bring my target to bear on the last atlas as it approached. The final shot from the phract managed to connect though,taking out one of my legs and knocking my speed down to near nothing. Locking my target I limped towards the cover of the hillside, apologising to my team for failing over my impending death. That was the last comment that went to chat though as I watched the large lasers burning the ground around me. I expected the end but just as my mech shook with the impact they stopped again, as did the encroaching atlas. Looking up I realised our score was 750, the match had ended, and the word "VICTORY" suddenly streamed across the screen.

So let that be a word, the commando can be a true terror in this game if piloted right. Yeah the ECM helped and I'm sure the SSRMs are a little more powerful than they used to be, but I've been playing this build since before ECM and streaks were upped again and it rocked even then.


... Unless someone manages to actually aim ahead and one-shot me with any of the many big guns most mechs are carrying these days. Commandos are a terrible joke to pilot against anyone who can aim (including me, I loved shooting the legs off them with AC5s or gauss cannons in bigger mechs. But then I come from a world of Tribes and Quake 1 over a modem, so perhaps I've had a little more practice than today's kids)

Edited by Woodat, 11 January 2013 - 12:27 PM.

[TygerLily]

I think ECM should be moved from the Atlas DDC to one or all of the Dragon chassis. Not that the Atlas is overpowered but the Dragon just seems a bit lack-luster (although the Flame has done a lot to change that).

[Woodat]

I will comment as a light-only player now (by choice, I love dogfighting) I do enjoy looking back to see an ECM atlas on the team as well. It means I don't have to play watch-dog duty to the bigger mechs, moving at a trundling 60km/h instead of my normal 140. It frees me up to actually do the things my mech is supposed to be doing: sneaking past enemy lines to provide spotting and cap flags too far or risky for the main team to go for.

I also live in abject fear of any other lights on the map who get the jump on me or a pair of ravens. 1 ECM I can jam and fight, 2 and I'm dead.

[Sandslice]

Truesight, on 11 January 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

Well i think that ECM should be like TT (5 Slot 7 tons). So ECM Mechs would have smaller engines (lights) or less weapons to play with (Atlas). Sure, 7 tons would hit a Raven quite hard, even an Atlas will have problems loosing 5 Slots in one of his side Torsos or the Arm? But ECM Mechs would be slower or a little bit "inferior" to standard Mechs without ECM.

ECM is not Primitive EW Gear, which the RVN-1X carried.

[Inveramsay]

I ran in to one of these 3xravens with ecm deathsquads today. I think the problem is really that 1) raven 3L is seriously fast, nothing can outrun it 2) coordination obviously gives better results but a couple together just creates a massive bubble of death as you can't lock LRMs and SSRMs on them which are two of the best counters to light mechs and 3) no effective counter. I can't see why tag and narc shouldn't allow missile lock on though for the weight I would prefer narc to last until that bit of mech was blown off or killed outright but that is another discussion. I think this situation wouldn't be so apparent if it wasn't for the fact that the light mech that can fit it is the raven with the best hard points and the most speed, had ECM been limited to one of the slower ravens it would be far less dangerous

I myself certainly die in my 3L raven but I do far more damage in it than any other mech I have currently often doing more than 500 damage in a match and quite a few with 750+. This means I know just how effective it is, honestly too effective. With another two good players in raven 3Ls I'd be quite confident in taking on an entire 8-man pug.

[LynxFury]

UrbatOrbi, on 11 January 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

and again:

ECM is not the prob

THE RAVEN is it!

To be specific though, only because is can hold that one piece of excessively powerful equipment.

Pre-ECM, the Jenner's were way more popular than any of the Ravens. Ravens were treated sort of like a curiosity with the disclaimer..."well if you simply have to drive one, get the 3L."

I will agree with others though MWO Raven-3L top end speed could probably be dropped some, even well below its max speed it's crazy easy button ride because of the 1.5 ton of equipment it can carry.

[Impossible Wasabi]

Woodat, on 11 January 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

... Unless someone manages to actually aim ahead and one-shot me with any of the many big guns most mechs are carrying these days. Commandos are a terrible joke to pilot against anyone who can aim (including me, I loved shooting the legs off them with AC5s or gauss cannons in bigger mechs. But then I come from a world of Tribes and Quake 1 over a modem, so perhaps I've had a little more practice than today's kids)

Certainly, the Space Pope respects good Commando pilots but in general or rather on average they are not very dangerous opponents.

They require amount of discipline and tactics that most people are just not willing to employ. Other times it's paper thin armor, mean that a lucky or good shot will end your day far quicker than any other mech.

[bryce]

I'll be taking a break from the game as long as ECM exists in this state. It's a big issue, and they really have just ignored it. I won't pay another dime, and if there vision for this game continues on this path and isn't for me then I won't play it again. I'm burned out from playing the same maps over and over, and ECM completely limited the roles that you can play in a match so now it's even more repetitive gameplay. I may have stuck around if PGI wasn't completely silent on the issue, but they've made their choice and I've made my peace with that. Adios.

[CmndoBrndo]

I think it's like Artemis when it first arrived, it was WAY OP when it first came out, now ECM has countered it.


Maybe that EMP effect from the PPC currently in planning will destroy/disable your ECM &/or BAP?

BAP could also use a huge buff.

[steelblueskies]

Sir Roland MXIII, on 10 January 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

ECM vs null signature system?

As I recall, and as I believe sarna states, ECM was a 3 hex radius, or 6 hex radius (I forget which), aura radiated from the ECM equipped mech that prevented missile lock and/or made missile lock diffficult (IE to hit modifier). So I'm guessing what ye meant was that null prevents info of yourself being scanned or some such?

EDIT - I should add I have no experience with null signature system so I could be wrong.

information is ammunition. use the real stuff, the faulty made up stuff blows up in your gunports.

Spoiler

used to ride the cicada 3m w/ecm. was like a fat jenner with 4 medlas i could fire all day long. bump the armor way way way up from stock(capellan standard cheap arsed armor levels stock). only thing i had trouble with were ravens and trollmando packs. dying with a bit of grumble as it wasn't a clean, hey he flat beat me, but rather i failed to magic dodge one streak salvo while getting bumhumped by a pair of ecm units. so moved on to raven even though it engenders a higher frequency of enemy ecm raven or commando. can laser the hell out of the commando's before they can streak me to death in anything less than a triplet. and can manage parity of trading with lasers +streaks vs ravens, so long as i don't get swarmed alone.

think the cicada's body block was easier to land hits on too honestly. raven does seem a bit broken int hat department.


as to the fellow recommending *artemis* srms vs ecm. one of two things is true. either they rebroke artemis spread not getting broken to standard spread while in ecm like it should, in which case you are enjoying a clear bug exploit, or you are suffering a cognitive dissonance between the reality and your perceptions of it.

no sane reason to use artemis srms vs ecm without ecm counter. just blows space and weight.

still haven't found artemis lrms to pull more than a 100-150 point lead on similarly equipped non artemis lrm loadouts. figure missile spread might need some widening for lrms, to a significant degree[read:a hell of a lot bigger area of spread for larger launches especially multi tube large launches], but damage is probably fine per missile.

ssrms and potential upcoming streak lrms(clan lrms) will forever have issues in the current model. random autohit table making ssrms use tt damage assignment with explicit exclusion of head hits, while other systems maintain aimed accuracy will be a forever rift. probably a good start mixed with other big hurdles to the system, until excessive lagshield and hitbox issues get handled as far as pgi deems reasonable relative to time/money/effort cost. revisit it after that point.

Edited by steelblueskies, 11 January 2013 - 03:02 PM.

[Bagheera]

There's nothing funnier than legging an ECM Raven.

Oh wait, yeah there is. Coring them while they hobble around helplessly.

[LynxFury]

The arms race is the wrong approach if we want the game to be much like battletech. Only about 25% of the entire collection of IS TROs had even a single added electronic component, and only 15% have either ECM or BAP from Star League to 3067.

The MWO BAP is probably about right for example, the couple hundred extra meters was handy for scouts, and long range sniper and support mechs, most other mechs that extra range simply wasn't needed. ECM should probably have had a similar narrow utility role...perhaps cut detection by a couple hundred meters (not 600m!) for the mech carrying it and make locks a bit more difficult but not impossible for those in the bubble. Not really a "must have" for any team except for perhaps a scout or to fight a particular risky tactic.

Edited by LynxFury, 11 January 2013 - 05:45 PM.

[StUffz]

CmndoBrndo, on 11 January 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

I think it's like Artemis when it first arrived, it was WAY OP when it first came out, now ECM has countered it.


Maybe that EMP effect from the PPC currently in planning will destroy/disable your ECM &/or BAP?

BAP could also use a huge buff.

At least what they can do is that a PPC overloads the electronics for a short while but not destroy or completely render useless. Otherwise you see lots of Missile rains again which I think is not intended in this game.

[TygerLily]

Truesight, on 11 January 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

Well i think that ECM should be like TT (5 Slot 7 tons). So ECM Mechs would have smaller engines (lights) or less weapons to play with (Atlas). Sure, 7 tons would hit a Raven quite hard, even an Atlas will have problems loosing 5 Slots in one of his side Torsos or the Arm? But ECM Mechs would be slower or a little bit "inferior" to standard Mechs without ECM.

Coincidentally, my friend Blood78 posted a similar idea on our unit's forums. I think it's the right direction:

"If ECM actually had real opportunity cost. Say it's still same critical slot and c-bill but now weigh 5 ton, susceptible to blowing up (like Gauss) but does no damage. It'd actually make a lot of sense. Atlas DDC wouldn't have to sacrifice much to get 5 ton but Raven, Commando, and even Cicada would. So what you'd see is more balanced play because ECM mechs would have to sacrifice something meaningful to carry that ECM. Whether it's armaments, heatsink, armor, slower speed, etc. That would ultimately mean that mech of same weight class that cannot carry ECM have better chance of taking it on. Which hopefully mean that your non-ECM fast mechs can neutralize their ECM mechs faster.

For example, Raven 3L with 5 ton ECM may carry 1 S.Laser and 2 SSRM-2 and run slower. You could hunt or take that 3L on with non-ECM lights."