442 replies to this topic

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

StalaggtIKE, on 14 January 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

You got suspended? Please do not give up.

Don't know if that is sarcasm or not, but there's only so long you can try to talk to plugged ears, you know?

[Codejack]

Bluten, on 14 January 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

Don't know if that is sarcasm or not, but there's only so long you can try to talk to plugged ears, you know?

In one of the recent podcasts, Garth mentioned that they know that people are unhappy with ECM. He also said that almost half the mechs used in 8-mans were ECM mechs, which should hopefully trigger some alarm bells.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

StalaggtIKE, on 14 January 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

One of the biggest issues with ECM is:

Radar Advantage
Due to ECM having stealth properties, the mech, on the left, without ECM must be within 200m in order to even spot the enemy. However the mech, on the right, with ECM can spot the enemy out to 800m! That's a 600m difference. By that time he's got intel on weapons and damaged armor well before you can. In theory ECM does BAP's job better, oh and it also neutralizes it to boot. Balanced?

Indeed it is not. In fact, look at the date on this thread I made where I repeatedly tried to get Piranha to buff the BAP to even the scales. If you folks want to keep the fight going, feel free to revive it. But I won't be posting in it anymore.
http://mwomercs.com/...2-buff-the-bap/

[Tolkien]

I voted, liked and bumped your poll with a poem.

[StalaggtIKE]

Codejack, on 14 January 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

In one of the recent podcasts, Garth mentioned that they know that people are unhappy with ECM. He also said that almost half the mechs used in 8-mans were ECM mechs, which should hopefully trigger some alarm bells.

I heard this as well. It's a glimmer of hope, despite how small it may be.

Bluten, on 14 January 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

Don't know if that is sarcasm or not, but there's only so long you can try to talk to plugged ears, you know?

Well no. I wasn't trying to be facetious, if that's what you're implying. But the only way I would give up, if I was permanently suspended. If the game stays this way I wont be playing anyway. I voted yes on your poll as ell.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 14 January 2013 - 12:45 PM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Ya well if the game picks up 6 months down the road, I don't want to be banned over BS that happened back here now. I have a Legendary, and I know I'll return eventually or keep visiting down the road after patches.

Tolkien, on 14 January 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

I voted, liked and bumped your poll with a poem.

Hehe. I previously posted with a parody of the "Dewey Cox Died" lyrics. It played in the credits for Walk Hard. ie... Hey everyone, have you heard the news? LRMs died. ECMs everywhere, Carriers cry, BAP on the ground, ask Piranha why.

But GL if you want to keep trying to talk sense into Piranha. I'm out of it for a while, and especially tired of discussing ECM.

[Ronan]

The whole thread is tl;dr... in general MY very ANECDOTAL evidence is ECM just makes you (ironically) a target. You get TAGged, focus fired, and otherwise blown away by any half-brained group of pilots -- you're a priority specifically because you have ECM. Then the ECM is gone. Doesn't sound OP to me.

I pilot non-ECM mechs, including LRM catapult. I don't suck any more than usual. I have two ECM mechs in my bays, and I pilot them on occassion. I don't suck any less than usual (tho do seem to get ganged up on sometimes, see above).

ECM seems to make people QQ a _lot_, and build huge rationalizations why their QQ opinion should be gospel. Statistics can be used to prove anything. Ya'all have your opinions, I appreciate that you have them and I hope PGI takes ALL of the input data they have into consideration, but wowzers. Please realize that there are people with differeing and equally valid opinions.

[StalaggtIKE]

Ronan, on 14 January 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

The whole thread is tl;dr... in general MY very ANECDOTAL evidence is ECM just makes you (ironically) a target. You get TAGged, focus fired, and otherwise blown away by any half-brained group of pilots -- you're a priority specifically because you have ECM. Then the ECM is gone. Doesn't sound OP to me.

I pilot non-ECM mechs, including LRM catapult. I don't suck any more than usual. I have two ECM mechs in my bays, and I pilot them on occassion. I don't suck any less than usual (tho do seem to get ganged up on sometimes, see above).

ECM seems to make people QQ a _lot_, and build huge rationalizations why their QQ opinion should be gospel. Statistics can be used to prove anything. Ya'all have your opinions, I appreciate that you have them and I hope PGI takes ALL of the input data they have into consideration, but wowzers. Please realize that there are people with differeing and equally valid opinions.

I can respect your opinion. but just as you see flaws in mine, I see them in yours. For instance any half-brained ECM pilot would avoid exposing himself from be blown away. You don't need los to use ECM, nor do you have to be in the open. In fact your best defense is to bait him out with other...., ECM lights. Go figure. LOL. I know when I pilot my RVN-3L, I'm around 90% the last one to go down. I find my team wins when the enemy is focusing on me, trying to chase me down, breaking their ranks and exposing their flanks.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 14 January 2013 - 12:27 PM.

[Buckminster]

Count me in the "sitting out and waiting for some real ECM changes" camp.

When they introduced ECM through the Raven and eventually the Men Shen in Mechcommander, it was an awesome tool. Invisible mechs, until they were spotted through LOS. Well played it was nasty, but it had severe drawbacks.

First, it only covered the mech that had it, no 180m invisibility bubble.
Second, you could only get it on one of two mechs, and those mechs had liabilities.
Third, all it did was reduce sensor range. it didn't negate any weapons (like Streaks)

I'm sorry, this is just another bad implementation by PGI. I'm under the impression that some of the developers are in the "wouldn't it be cool if..." camp, and are completely ignoring balance for the "OMG uber" factor.

[TehCable]

After having a few weeks to adjust my play style to ECM, I'd like to update my complaint. Now that I've moved to only using direct fire weapons, the lock-breaking is not my biggest complaint anymore. I'm back to racking up big damage and XP numbers in most matches now, so my ECM gripes are less about being butt-hurt.

Now my problem with ECM boils down to one simple complaint:

ECM makes teamwork much, much more difficult.

And that is a serious problem for the general level of fun. This is a team game. Co-operation is critical.

It was bad enough that Piranha completely failed to integrate voice chat by not providing a way to find a group of players that are actually using C3.

It is bad enough that the friends list and group interfaces barely work and are completely unusable for anything other than putting together a group that has already been formed through third party software like Teamspeak.

It is bad enough third party software is the only way to co-ordinate targets with your team during a fight.

On top of these major barriers to teamwork, they decided to add ECM.

You used to be able to get some loose team co-ordination going with pugs via text chat. Not anymore. Not if the other team has ECM. As soon as the fighting starts, nobody seems to know where friend nor foe is. Uh oh, this brawl isn't going my way, it sure would be nice to know which direction friendlies are so I can regroup... nope, just screwed. Well that wasn't fun.

Now let's get on teamspeak and find some randos with mics. Maybe now we'll be able to co-ordinate. Too bad 80% of players on teamspeak still can't use the grid system to relay location information. I've been begging for help with Raven Alpha in Echo Six for 2 full minutes, but none of the 3 people that can hear me see anything on their mini-map over there, so they can't seem to prioritize what they hear over what they see. It also seems to be the case that nobody can tell me their grid location no matter how many times in a row I ask. Stop saying you need help with Foxtrot and tell me where on the map he is. I can't see Foxtrot because he's a full 200m away from me. I would love to help you, bro, but the game trained you to talk a certain way, then suddenly made that lingo completely irrelevant. Don't even get me started on focus fire. If the other team has 2-3 ECM units, focus fire is dead (unless you're playing with really, really good communicators).

Okay, so much for playing with randos. Now I need to wait around on teamspeak for an extra 10 minutes to find players I recognize as competent. And that's just to make 4 man remotely enjoyable. I've still got 4 pugs to deal with, and the best I can do to accomplish something resembling teamwork with the pugs is type a general strategy and then follow the pugs around the map when they ignore what I wrote. If we lose visual on each other, we might get split for the rest of the match. I'd love to try out some creative tactics, maybe attack from an unusual angle, or, god forbid, call a retreat when an all out brawl is going poorly. But if I try to do any of that, I'm basically just abandoning the pugs because those poor ******** can't fight and read at the same time.

Okay, well, damn, I guess I need to get an 8 man group together if I want to do anything remotely interesting. But wait, 8 man teams are averaging more than 4 ECM mechs. Now NOBODY knows what the hell is going on. I played with one named group (which for this discussion will remain un-named) that refused to admit that 8 man was all about ECM. I tried to convince them we needed more ECM, but their counter-argument was that they could take any ECM mech in a 1 on 1 brawl. Yeah, let's see how that works out for us. We spend the whole time completely unco-ordinated. We start out grouped together pretty well, but as soon as ECM takes out our mini-map, we're chasing targets in different directions, then getting in trouble and not being able to find help.

Alright, let's get serious. Clearly, what I need is a truly organized team if I'm going to be able to execute any real strategy. Alright, let's spend weeks building up a clan full of great players that have been playing since closed beta and all have ECM mechs. We'll build a solid group, and be able to see the map and make interesting maneuvers together. This is going to be fun! Oh wait, we have a mostly homogenous group because we only had 4 viable variants to choose from, and we only really like 2 of them. We have 6 Atlases and 2 Ravens, and we win every match without even trying. The only thing less fun than this is being in an 8 man group and running into this.



In summary, before ECM, I enjoyed taking command. Whether on teamspeak or just using text chat, I could co-ordinate interesting strategies that most players hadn't seen before (on 2 different maps, E6 is my favorite rally point). I could scout ahead without completely losing track of the rest of the team. I could ask for help and get it. I could save somebody's *** when they needed it. I could out flank other pre-mades. That **** was all FUN.

Now if I take command of a group, I can't do anything creative without an 80% chance of getting half my team killed.

ECM has ruined this game.

Your move, Piranha.

Edited by TehCable, 14 January 2013 - 01:44 PM.

[StalaggtIKE]

TehCable, on 14 January 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

After having a few weeks to adjust my play style to ECM, I'd like to update my complaint. Now that I've moved to only using direct fire weapons, the lock-breaking is not my biggest complaint anymore. I'm back to racking up big damage and XP numbers in most matches now, so my ECM gripes are less about being butt-hurt.

Now my problem with ECM boils down to one simple complaint:

ECM makes teamwork much, much more difficult.

And that is a serious problem for the general level of fun. This is a team game. Co-operation is critical.

It was bad enough that Piranha completely failed to integrate voice chat by not providing a way to find a group of players that are actually using C3.

It is bad enough that the friends list and group interfaces barely work and are completely unusable for anything other than putting together a group that has already been formed through third party software like Teamspeak.

It is bad enough third party software is the only way to co-ordinate targets with your team during a fight.

On top of these major barriers to teamwork, they decided to add ECM.

You used to be able to get some loose team co-ordination going with pugs via text chat. Not anymore. Not if the other team has ECM. As soon as the fighting starts, nobody seems to know where friend nor foe is. Uh oh, this brawl isn't going my way, it sure would be nice to know which directly friendlies are so I can regroup... nope, just screwed. Well that wasn't fun.

Now let's get on teamspeak and find some randos with mics. Maybe now we'll be able to co-ordinate. Too bad 80% of players on teamspeak still can't use the grid system to relay information. I've been begging for help with Raven Alpha in Echo Six for 2 full minutes, but none of the 3 people that can hear me see anything on their mini-map over there, so they can't seem prioritize what they hear over what they see. It also seems to be the case that nobody can tell me their grid location no matter how many times in a row I ask. Stop saying you need help with Foxtrot and tell me where on the map he is. I can't see Foxtrot because he's a full 200m away from me. I would love to help you, bro, but the game trained you to talk a certain way, then suddenly made that lingo completely irrelevant. Don't even get me started on focus fire. If the other team has 2-3 ECM units, focus fire is dead (unless you're playing with really, really good communicators).

Okay, so much for playing with randos. Now I need to wait around on teamspeak for an extra 10 minutes to find players I recognize as competent. And that's just to make 4 man remotely enjoyable. I've still got 4 pugs to deal with, and the best I can do to accomplish something resembling teamwork with the pugs is type a general strategy and then follow the pugs around the map when they ignore what I wrote. If we lose visual on each other, we might get split for the rest of the match. I'd love to try out some creative tactics, maybe attack from an unusual angle, or, god forbid, call a retreat when an all out brawl is going poorly. But if I try to do any of that, I'm basically just abandoning the pugs because those poor ******** can't fight and read at the same time.

Okay, well, damn, I guess I need to get an 8 man group together if I want to do anything remotely interesting. But wait, 8 man teams are averaging more than 4 ECM mechs. Now NOBODY knows what the hell is going on. I played with one named group (which for this discussion will remain un-named) that refused to admit that 8 man was all about ECM. I tried to convince them we needed more ECM, but their counter-argument was that they could take any ECM mech in a 1 on 1 brawl. Yeah, let's see how that works out for us. We spend the whole time completely unco-ordinated. We start out grouped together pretty well, but as soon as ECM takes out our mini-map, we're chasing targets in different directions, then getting in trouble and not being able to find help.

Alright, let's get serious. Clearly, what I need is a truly organized team if I'm going to be able to execute any real strategy. Alright, let's spend weeks building up a clan full of great players that have been playing since closed beta and all have ECM mechs. We'll build a solid group, and be able to see the map and make interesting maneuvers together. This is going to be fun! Oh wait, we have a mostly homogenous group because we only had 4 viable variants to choose from, and we only really like 2 of them. We have 6 Atlases and 2 Ravens, and we win every match without even trying. The only thing less fun than this is being in an 8 man group and running into this.



In summary, before ECM, I enjoyed taking command. Whether on teamspeak or just using text chat, I could co-ordinate interesting strategies that most players hadn't seen before (on 2 different maps, E6 is my favorite rally point). I could scout ahead without completely losing track of the rest of the team. I could ask for help and get it. I could save somebody's *** when they needed it. I could out flank other pre-mades. That **** was all FUN.

Now if I take command of a group, I can't do anything creative without an 80% chance of getting half my team killed.

ECM has ruined this game.

Your move, Piranha.

MY GOD! This is my biggest complaint. That's not including the unbalanced aspects, just the fact it ruins pug team work.

[Shade4x]

Here is my feedback... 1 ECM on a 100 ton mech is enough to neutralized Every LRM on the enemys entire team, AND makes your team untargetable. The only way to counter this, is to put an ECM mech with in hugging range of that 100 ton mech and all its allies.

I spend about 5 minutes trying to write a real world example to put this in perspective. However it is so absurb, that it makes my examples less absurb then the actual problem.

by the way, if every match has 50% of every mech using ECM's, then i wonder what percent are trail mech's? Because none of the trial mech's have ECM's. I'm betting if people could field any of the ECM mech's, we would only see 4 mech's in any match.

[StalaggtIKE]

Shade4x, on 14 January 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

Here is my feedback... 1 ECM on a 100 ton mech is enough to neutralized Every LRM on the enemys entire team, AND makes your team untargetable. The only way to counter this, is to put an ECM mech with in hugging range of that 100 ton mech and all its allies.

I spend about 5 minutes trying to write a real world example to put this in perspective. However it is so absurb, that it makes my examples less absurb then the actual problem.

by the way, if every match has 50% of every mech using ECM's, then i wonder what percent are trail mech's? Because none of the trial mech's have ECM's. I'm betting if people could field any of the ECM mech's, we would only see 4 mech's in any match.

Lol. They should have the 4 ECM mechs as trial mechs. Or at least just one of them.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 14 January 2013 - 01:05 PM.

[Ronan]

StalaggtIKE, on 14 January 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

I can respect your opinion. but just as you see flaws in mine, I see them in yours. For instance any half-brained ECM pilot would avoid exposing himself from be blown away. You don't need los to use ECM, nor do you have to be in the open. In fact your best defense is to bait him out with other...., ECM lights. Go figure. LOL. I know when I pilot my RVN-3L, I'm around 90% the last one to go down. I find my team wins when the enemy is focusing on me, trying to chase me down, breaking their ranks and exposing their flanks.

But that's exactly the behavior pug assault pilots have always demonstrated -- a light running thru the ranks will almost always draw an assault or two after it (HEY! I'm in an Atlas, I can squash that Raven!). The assaults can't hit the light, the front lines are now weak, and that team dies. Happened before ECM was ever introduced.

I've seen non-ECM teams wipe the floor with their opponents, even those with ECM. So in my opinion, based on my anecdotal evidence (and I've said before, anecdotal evidence is worthless, even mine), the best counter to ECM is playing smart.

And why is it you think the half-brained ECM pilots avoid exposing themselves, but your team only wins if you get out there, get the other team to focus on you and chase you? Not that I actually want to know, I'm just being rhetorical at this point. The only reason I posted was to point out that all the "evidence" provided so far that ECMs are resulting in "off" win results is suspect anecdotal at best. Only PGI has the database records to provide "real" data, to know if ECM is truely having a win-loss impact globally. I guess I really didn't make my point explicitly enough or properly.

[Shade4x]

If you put in an I WIN button that negates the whole purpose of battletech (targeting weak points) then atleast make it a button you have to press.

[StalaggtIKE]

Ronan, on 14 January 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

But that's exactly the behavior pug assault pilots have always demonstrated -- a light running thru the ranks will almost always draw an assault or two after it (HEY! I'm in an Atlas, I can squash that Raven!). The assaults can't hit the light, the front lines are now weak, and that team dies. Happened before ECM was ever introduced.

The difference being now, they have a reason to chase him. It's a catch-22. When they ignore him, his team enjoys the benefits of ECM; this goes beyond missile immunity btw. However if they chase them, like I said, the team is scattered.

Quote

I've seen non-ECM teams wipe the floor with their opponents, even those with ECM. So in my opinion, based on my anecdotal evidence (and I've said before, anecdotal evidence is worthless, even mine), the best counter to ECM is playing smart.

Playing smart is always the "winning" strategy, however an advantage is an advantage. Would you not agree that playing smart with an advantage is even better?

Quote

And why is it you think the half-brained ECM pilots avoid exposing themselves, but your team only wins if you get out there, get the other team to focus on you and chase you? Not that I actually want to know, I'm just being rhetorical at this point.

Never said it was the only way for my team to win, but it definitely helps. Why does it work? All I can say is I'm the half-brained ECM pilot that does it all the time. Sometimes, very rarely, I get stuffed and regret making myself vulnerable. But the key is playing smart. There goes that adage again.

Quote

The only reason I posted was to point out that all the "evidence" provided so far that ECMs are resulting in "off" win results is suspect anecdotal at best. Only PGI has the database records to provide "real" data, to know if ECM is truely having a win-loss impact globally. I guess I really didn't make my point explicitly enough or properly.

The only reason I replied to you, is because you made it sound as if ECM pilots are inherently stupid with a bulls-eye on them and non-ECM pilots only need to think a little bit to counter them. No, an ECM pilot doesn't need to expose himself and if he does, there is a chance he knows what he is doing. That's my point.

But moving on, other than the fact that ECM is displayed over the enemy head when he is within 200m of you, I can't think of a single negative of ECM. Especially, when given the fact that if you have no ECM there is a marker over head out to 800m. 200m versus 800m? Which seems like a bigger negative to you? I think the choice is clear. And you say it doesn't provide any advantages!?

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 14 January 2013 - 01:50 PM.

[LynxFury]

TehCable, on 14 January 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

After having a few weeks to adjust my play style to ECM, I'd like to update my complaint.....

I ,missed your earlier "complaint....but just wow, your description of the problems relating ECM and teamwork are the best read I've seen.
[color="#cccccc"]a[/color]

[Death Mallet]

I think with the following two fixes, ECM/BAP could be just fine and an interesting part of the game.

Change 1:
ECM does not block regular sensors.

Regular sensors are largely line-of-sight driven anyway, so are probably a camera tech optical pattern recognition that wouldn't be vulnerable to ECM anyway. In any case, this fixes the most god awful part of ECM which is allowing the enemy to close to point blank range before being targetable.

Change 2:
BAP burns through ECM

Basically if you have a BAP, you become immune to ECM. It's like using ECCM but it works for only your mech, nobody else. This gives the BAP a much needed buff, and a role in the online game.

[StalaggtIKE]

Death Mallet, on 14 January 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

I think with the following two fixes, ECM/BAP could be just fine and an interesting part of the game.

Change 1:
ECM does not block regular sensors.

Regular sensors are largely line-of-sight driven anyway, so are probably a camera tech optical pattern recognition that wouldn't be vulnerable to ECM anyway. In any case, this fixes the most god awful part of ECM which is allowing the enemy to close to point blank range before being targetable.

Change 2:
BAP burns through ECM

Basically if you have a BAP, you become immune to ECM. It's like using ECCM but it works for only your mech, nobody else. This gives the BAP a much needed buff, and a role in the online game.

Agreed. Change 1 basically solves this:

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 15 January 2013 - 08:16 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

LRMS need to be indirect fire weapons. Missiles need to be able to lock despite ECM, even if this means triple or quadruple lockon timers.

Radar needs to function just as pre-ecm radar did when ECM mechs are on disrupt, allowing for the increased signal strength that still causes disruption INSIDE 180m.

On counter, ECM could bring radar detection down to 400 or 500m, thus curbing lockon range but no disruption possible.

LRMS again, I'd suggest mech3 LRMS to stop the current SSRM LRM function and bring skill back to LRMS.

Right now the biggest issue with ECM is how LRMS have become direct fire weapons, putting them at a subpar level to all other weapons, and how radar no longer functions at all, not just under disrupt effects but at range as well.

This loss of LRMS has seriously impeded strategic combat most significantly in 8 mans, and the general diversity and flow of battles is simply no longer there.