114 replies to this topic

[Texas Merc]

Im a snowflake

[StalaggtIKE]

Foxtrot Uniform, on 09 January 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

ECM is fine.. allowing 4 man teams in a pug match is whats really broken, groups should only be matched against other groups.

So, now the problem is teamwork? Besides, how do you figure PGI will counter sync drops?

[Bullseye69]

Zyne, on 09 January 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

TAG is not effective against ECM, try keeping your TAG on a Raven/Cicada/Commanado doing over 120kph its near impossible.

The only counter to ECM is another mech with ECM

Your exactly right the only counter to ECM is another ECM. I run a Jenner hunter Killer for lights I don't fear anything except ECM lights and mediums. With netcode and lag shield you can not reliable hit them unless you use streaks, they only fear other ECM mechs, they will usually go out of the way to not engage other ECM mechs like raven,commando and cicada because it is to level a playing field.

Everyone tells me to buy a Raven with ECM why should I have to buy another mech when I have a light already that happens to be a founders just to compete with ECM mechs.

I have no fear of the Atlas DDC either respect yes but no fear.

[SlXSlXSlX]

ECM is fine. 4 man teams in 8 man matches is a huge, but seperate issue.

[Novawrecker]

StalaggtIKE, on 09 January 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

So, now the problem is teamwork?

In most cases, teamwork (or lack of it) is a problem. However that's a different topic (animal) to tackle and no coding on the planet will fix that.

Edited by Novawrecker, 09 January 2013 - 11:34 AM.

[BLUPRNT]

Another ECM debate.

I was wondering what exactly is supposed to happen in order to collect bonuses for using TAG or Narc? As I have not seen anything at match end to reflect any except spotting assist which i was gettting before. So patch didn't work or nothing changed.

[Hobo Dan]

These two things needed C-Bill rewards and got them. TAG is much better now that it has a longer range. NARC is still useless. If they added more shots per ton of ammo and dropped the LOS requirement, it would be more useful.

If I could make one change to ECM, I would remove the Friendly Mech umbrella or make it so one ECM can only hide one friendly.

[StalaggtIKE]

BLUPRNT, on 09 January 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

Another ECM debate.

I was wondering what exactly is supposed to happen in order to collect bonuses for using TAG or Narc? As I have not seen anything at match end to reflect any except spotting assist which i was gettting before. So patch didn't work or nothing changed.

It should be working.

Thomas Dziegielewski said:

The awards are actually happening but they will not show up in the chat or end of round screen at this time.

The ECM debates will probably continue until PGI makes an official statement [here] on the subject.

Hobo Dan, on 09 January 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

... make it so one ECM can only hide one friendly.

How would that be achieved, through the hold hands method?

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 09 January 2013 - 11:54 AM.

[TruePoindexter]

StalaggtIKE, on 09 January 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

The ECM debates will probably continue until PGI makes an official statement [here] on the subject.

They'll continue well after. Just look at DHS and how people still harp on that one.

[Novawrecker]

TruePoindexter, on 09 January 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

They'll continue well after. Just look at DHS and how people still harp on that one.

That's cause (most) people are never completely satisfied ....

[TruePoindexter]

Novawrecker, on 09 January 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

That's cause (most) people are never completely satisfied ....

Nail, Head

[StalaggtIKE]

Novawrecker, on 09 January 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

That's cause (most) people are never completely satisfied ....

Touché.

I still feel that the community deserve an official word.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 09 January 2013 - 12:16 PM.

[PropagandaWar]

SlXSlXSlX, on 09 January 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

ECM: In it's current state, adds to the diversity of options we can choose in our mech layouts. It is the counter to one of the easiest to use weapons in the game, one which is well known for producing large amounts of damages. I do not own one single ECM mech, and yet I support it. It does not limit our mech choices, but rather leaves us more choices, due to the fact that we do not need to choose our mech based on how it operates in a lrm dominated battlefield. I felt more so, my options for mech choice were more limited before ecm, than they are now.

Those who cannot aim precision weapons, cry about ecm. Go get a few ballistic weapons, and start practicing. I run dragons, cataphracts, and recently got a catapult. None of these carries ecm, and yet I run them exclusively as a lone wolf, and never have issues dealing with ecm...

And this is coming from a player who's bad @ mechs.

Actually I think the fact that it hides the enemy team on the map is kind of lame. That and all but one set of mechs can use LRM's streaks+ecm soooo bringing up the aiming thing is kind of invalid. I have on lock mech and I rarely use it so ECM doesnt effect me much. Howerver I agree that you get a bit to much for what you pay for compaired to other componnets.

Edited by PropagandaWar, 09 January 2013 - 12:01 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

Solis Obscuri, on 05 December 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

Paul Inouye said:

TAG range will be boosted from 450m to 750m.

While I think I see what PGI is trying to do here, I still don't see TAG as an adequate counter to ECM. All I see is TAG becoming still stronger as a tool for use against teams/targets without ECM protection.

On TT (and yes, we all know MWO isn't a strict reproduction of the CBT ruleset) ECM is a T2 counter to a number of T2 fire-control systems that markedly boost the accuracy and cluster-hit bonuses for missile systems (Narc, TAG, Artemis, Streak*) and direct-fire systems (C3/C3i), as well as blunting the bonuses from data-gathering systems used to locate hidden units (BAP). All of these are useful bonuses, particularly when confronting an opposing team that makes extensive use of T2 equipment to augment their offensive capabilities.
* The way Streak missiles function in MWO (and previous MW titles) is also somewhat different than their TT role; on TT Streaks simply do not fire unless they roll a hit, and if the launcher hits, all missiles hit (barring terrain interference from partial cover). This amounts to a significant cluster-hit bonus and conserves both ammunition and heat, but does not actually give a bonus to accuracy.

By contrast, in MWO ECM is still doing all of that, except now also preventing the use of LRMs altogether, and preventing target data sharing except in an extremely narrow 20m band at the edge of ECM range. Compared to TT, this would be like playing double-blind, but only allowing the individual pieces to have "knowledge" of the positions of opposing units they personally have LOS on, but not any revealed to allied units. TAG is intended as a limited counter to this, as is the use of ECM as ECCM.

I find this problematic for a number of reasons;

• First, ECM effectively takes Information Warfare out of being tactically based, and much more into being equipment based; by contrast info-gathering technology (such as BAP) is helpful, but subtle in it's effects, and generally not game-changing to such a degree that it needs a hard counter. As a result, ECM largely removes Information Warfare as a feature of the game, replacing it tout entière with "Electronic Warfare", which amounts to just having more of the units allowed to carry an ECM on your side than the enemy does.
  
• Second, ECM's two counters are itself and another somewhat-expensive T2 component that only one stock unit equips, meaning that players/drops not heavily customized/organized to counter ECM operate under a massive disadvantage for information gathering. No other T2 item by itself gives that degree of advantage to "haves" over "have-nots".
  
• Third, the use of TAG as a counter requires continual aim on the 'mech to be targeted; ECM counters all targeting attempts simply by being present in a 180m radius. Even with T2 gear equipped, there is a substantial disparity in the challenge presented in countering ECM vs. using ECM (unless the counter is just another ECM in ECCM mode).
  
• Fourth, by denying targeting data to enemy units, ECM prevents opponents from receiving loadout and damage data. This further exacerbates the 'lagshield' issue already exploited by fast-moving units, since visually displayed hits/hit locations often differ from the server-authenticated data provided by the targeting data readout. This would be a lesser concern if netcode was in better shape, but lag-shooting and hit-detection remains the single worst gameplay issue for a large percentage of the players.

Overall this is too many advantages to stack, particularly for a 1.5 ton piece of passive equipment with no drawbacks, primarily availble on fast scout chassis.





Looking at the porposed change to TAG, I can see where the devs might want it as a counter for ECM - it would allow attacking units to target 'mechs under the ECM effect at a much longer range, either for direct-fire or with a spotter. However, it doesn't address problems 2, 3, or 4 as listed above. Instead, it creates a TAG unit which is much, much stronger against units not shrouded beneath the "cloaking device", deepening the T1/T2 equipment advantage, as well as the Narc/TAG effectiveness disparity.

As such, I would, instead of buffing TAG further (really, it's plenty good as-is!) and creating a new problem in the course of "fixing" an existing one, make the following changes to how ECM functions:

Disruption Mode:

• ‘Cloaks’ friendlies within 180 meters (reduces detection distance to 25% 75% of normal range).
  
• Disrupts enemies sensors (targeting system), as well as targeting communication (sharing of targeting information) within 180 meters.
  
• Disables enemy NARC
  
• Disables enemy Artemis within sphere of influence, and against friendly target in sphere of influence.
  
• Disables broadcasting of TAG (if friendly is within sphere of influences); However, if you TAG a mech with ECM OUTSIDE of their sphere of influence, it allows you and your friendlies to target
  
• Slow down weapon locks by 25%
  
• Slow down target gathering by 25%
  
• Active Probes do not gain any benefits against ECM equipped or protected enemies. Units equipped with Active Probe will receive a visible notice they are being jammed.

Counter Mode:

• Neutralizes 1 nearby enemy’s ECM in Disruption mode. (no change)

Ghost Target Mode: (new!)

• Can create up to 4 (one every three seconds) false sensor contacts within 180m radius of 'mech location (cannot create or maintain targets outside this range)
  
• Ghost targets do not display any target data
  
• Battlegrid must be active to create Ghost Targets
  
• Active Probe can discern Ghost Targets from real sensor contact unless under effect of ECM jamming
  
• ECM cannot Disrupt or Counter while in Ghost Target Mode.

http://mwomercs.com/...-doesnt-fix-ecm

[Hobo Dan]

StalaggtIKE, on 09 January 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

How would that be achieved, through the hold hands method?

Hey just brainstorming here, maybe piggy backing?

I'd prefer ECM only hide the mech running it, then down the line they can add Angle ECM, which can hide friendly mechs around it, but then this whole debate would strike back up so...

We could also look at the problem from a different angle entirely. Who is most effected by ECM? LRM and SSRM users. So make SSRM able to dumb fire like regular SRMs and add a toggle to make LRMs dumb fire. Same range, same damage (much harder to aim). TAG or NARC could even make dumb fired LRMs and SSRMs track ever so slightly.

I don't know what to say. Everyone will never be happy but offering ideas is better than yelling about who is right or wrong...

[StalaggtIKE]

Hobo Dan, on 09 January 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

Hey just brainstorming here, maybe piggy backing?

I'd prefer ECM only hide the mech running it, then down the line they can add Angle ECM, which can hide friendly mechs around it, but then this whole debate would strike back up so...

We could also look at the problem from a different angle entirely. Who is most effected by ECM? LRM and SSRM users. So make SSRM able to dumb fire like regular SRMs and add a toggle to make LRMs dumb fire. Same range, same damage (much harder to aim). TAG or NARC could even make dumb fired LRMs and SSRMs track ever so slightly.

I don't know what to say. Everyone will never be happy but offering ideas is better than yelling about who is right or wrong...

I'm just giving you a hard time. That would be better than what it is now.

I feel that ECM affects me and I don't even use LRM/SSRM. But that was posted earlier.

[Novawrecker]

StalaggtIKE, on 09 January 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

Touché.

I still would like an official word.

OFFICIAL WORD: People are never, 100%, satisfied.

(sorry, had too )

[Foxtrot Uniform]

TruePoindexter, on 09 January 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

They'll continue well after. Just look at DHS and how people still harp on that one.

I imagine people still harp on that one because it's well.. NOT a double heatsink, or even close

[Death Metal]

ECM should only affect the mech it is equiped to, thats the way it has always been in the mechwarrior games.

[Rift Hawk]

Yokaiko, on 09 January 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

OK so you have a Raven going +130kph how do you avoid it short of Cicada or Jenner?

Not to mention that if the beam drops off for like a millisecond missile lose lock....yeah still sucks range or not.

My opinion is that the jobs of light mechs should be to counter other ecm. via their own ecm on counter or tag or narc. Not saying the system works fine atm, just giving my opinion. Atlas should NOT have ecm.

Also, ECM should be a mod slot that only certain mechs can buy and it should take 20k + GXP to research and 10 million Cbills to purchase. Also, my opinion