130 replies to this topic

[XWorldEaterX]

DaZur, on 15 January 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

+1000 to the OP.

To parallel your premise (which I fully support) I wish to add that aside from the side-effect of proliferation of cheese builds, the absence of R&R has created no repercussion scenarios...

Players rush into battle with no forethought to the consequences because there is no over-riding incentive to:
a.) Not get killed.
b.) Not get their Mech obliterated.
c.) Not **** through their full ammo load.
d.)Not incur an outlandish repair bill.

Essentially the omission of R&R has removed all fear of repercussion... Players play full-tilt without a care on the world. This then leads to mindless matches of players simply throwing their cheesiest builds at each other with no thought of recourse and any premise of battlefield tactics and or true teamwork and collaboration is thrown out the window.

Bring back R&R and you will see players playing "smarter" and matches will be more cerebral and far less "pew-pew".

I don't understand. From what I have heard in similar threads about this not much changed in regard to people playing like idiots. All this would do is punish the rest of the team when someone disconnects or runs out and dies quick because the chance of death would increase greatly for everyone else on the team.

Also this wouldnt stop cheese builds. People who have founder, hero and premium will still make more money and teams running 4 people are still going to stomp the pugs with their "cheese" mechs and make lot of cbills, it will simply be much easier because you will be playing against much weaker builds most of the time.

While I like the idea of putting a fee on ecm what do you do when the four man doesnt mind the fee and comes in with 4 3L/ddcs? I notice a big difference in victory when one side has no ecm and the other has 1+

Edited by XWorldEaterX, 15 January 2013 - 06:42 AM.

[Aym]

DaZur, on 15 January 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

+1000 to the OP.

To parallel your premise (which I fully support) I wish to add that aside from the side-effect of proliferation of cheese builds, the absence of R&R has created no repercussion scenarios...

Players rush into battle with no forethought to the consequences because there is no over-riding incentive to:
a.) Not get killed.
b.) Not get their Mech obliterated.
c.) Not **** through their full ammo load.
d.)Not incur an outlandish repair bill.

Essentially the omission of R&R has removed all fear of repercussion... Players play full-tilt without a care on the world. This then leads to mindless matches of players simply throwing their cheesiest builds at each other with no thought of recourse and any premise of battlefield tactics and or true teamwork and collaboration is thrown out the window.

Bring back R&R and you will see players playing "smarter" and matches will be more cerebral and far less "pew-pew".

You sir played a different game than I did during RnR. Players who were abusing the system, suicide farming, not repairing, or simply didn't know how to play with the team still rushed in and died. Players who are suicide farming, or simply don't know how to play STILL do this. While the rest of us trying to play as a team play as we have for the last 7 months, even when we made millions of c-bills per evening and had 100's of millions at every reset with nothing to spend them on.

[Sprouticus]

Yokaiko, on 15 January 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

Not till you do.

I said that I LIKED the cost based balancing, it made the game MORE FUN. Period.

You opinion is no more or less valuable than mine killer.

Why? What is it about RnR that is fun. That you are forced to bring a suboptimal mech? That those who play n gorups can afford to bring better mechs because their winning % is better? Because it gives the illusion of you play inside the game mattering outside the game?

All of these reasons are bad. The are either constructs you have given value too but which most people don't or they are selfish and shortsighted. Everyone opinion is important, but when your opinion is based upon fallacies and ignores the glaring downsides of the system you are trying to endorse, your opinion because less valid than those based upon fact and those which see the whole picture.

(Sorry if that sounded harsh. Im not trying to be a jerk, just calling it like I see it)

Vassago and I have had multiple issues over the past few months. I am NOT his biggest fan. Sometimes he can be a tool. But in this he is 100% right.

[Yokaiko]

Vassago Rain, on 15 January 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

It's done none of this, but made it so you can bring assault mechs.

And that is near all they bring.

Just goofing around the last couple days I have seen numerous matches with nothing but assaults and heavies, you of course you have the 2 -3L and a 2D games as well, but other then a random Cicada or trial CN9-D you mainly see phracts, cats, atlases and stalkers.

And that is near all they bring.

Edited by Yokaiko, 15 January 2013 - 06:40 AM.

[Ivanzypher]

Vassago Rain, on 15 January 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

There should never be a reason for you to not drop in a mech you like.

That was one of the earliest things they settled on. Every mech should be viable, and if you like something, you shouldn't have to be in something else before you could be in your favorite.

Now I can get people to play the game with me. I've gotten 6 new players into the game already. Meanwhile, what have you done? Moaned on the forum?

The problem is, with no downside to fully upgraded mechs, eventually, everyone will have them. It might take a few months, but we'll get there. Then what happens when a new player joins? It's even worse than it is now, because EVERY single person has a fully upgraded, pimped out mech, ready to tear their crappy trial mech to pieces. Atleast with RnR there would always be some enemies in their less effective "moneymaking" mechs. Plus, when lagshield is fixed, lights will become rare again. Noone really uses mediums as it is, so it's gonna become Heavy/Assaultwarrior Online.

Worse than any of that though, it just doesn't feel "Battletech" to lose my arm and think, "Meh, doesn't matter".

As for what I've done since RnR? Played alot of MWO. Just been enjoying it less than before. Also got my brother into the game. His first comment? "No repair costs? That sucks".

Sprouticus, on 15 January 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

Here is the root issue. Some people feel like the only reason to play a game is the metagame aspect. Which to me says they don't actually like PLAYING THE GAME. I have 21 mechs, about half of them mastered out. I use all of the mechs I own (although not all of the variants of each mech) all the time. Currently I'm leveling stalkers, but I still drop in my 1X, Hunchie, Atlas, Raven, et al because I just like dropping in different mechs.

If RnR is the only thing keeping you from using high end equipment etc all the time, it means there is a flaw in game balance. And I think we can all agree that certain equipment is flawed. But PGI is working on it. I respect their efforts, and their past success in addressing the deficiencies. I would prefer they move a bit faster on stuff like weapons balance and ECM, but I understand that they want to make sure they dont have unintended consequences for such actions.

I don't see how enjoying the RnR mechanic means someone doesn't enjoy the game. It just means they enjoy consequences for playing like a derp and losing your arms every match. I have around 10 mechs. I also use them all. They are all levelled as much as they can be(pesky 3 variant requirement) I also played all of them(well, the ones I had) with RnR. I never felt like I couldn't use my Atlas, just that if I didn't play well in it, I wouldn't turn a profit. I just didn't have a problem with that.

As for your second paragraph, how else can they balance the hightech gear? ECM is powerful. Endosteel is flat out superior to regular. There is currently no reason to ever not use these things. The only way to balance flat upgrades is with an economy.

[DaZur]

Vassago Rain, on 15 January 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

It's done none of this, but made it so you can bring assault mechs.

Yup... Assault Mechs filled to the brim with premium equipment that for all intent and purpose should be handled with white gloves due to the rarity and prohibitive cost to operate. Premium Mechs that are piloted like Yugos in a demolition derby because... "Meh... I don't care if it gets demolished because I feel no repercussion for piloting it like a moron".

One doesn't wear an Armani 3-piece suit to work on a car unless you can afford to do so... Unless it's MW:O in it's current iteration.

Edited by DaZur, 15 January 2013 - 06:45 AM.

[HighlandCoo]

Ya expect to see your precious invoices come back in community warfare or some kind of competitive mode.

Leave the rest of us out of your boring bean counting.

[Yokaiko]

Sprouticus, on 15 January 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

Why? What is it about RnR that is fun. That you are forced to bring a suboptimal mech? That those who play n gorups can afford to bring better mechs because their winning % is better? Because it gives the illusion of you play inside the game mattering outside the game?

All of these reasons are bad. The are either constructs you have given value too but which most people don't or they are selfish and shortsighted. Everyone opinion is important, but when your opinion is based upon fallacies and ignores the glaring downsides of the system you are trying to endorse, your opinion because less valid than those based upon fact and those which see the whole picture.

(Sorry if that sounded harsh. Im not trying to be a jerk, just calling it like I see it)

Vassago and I have had multiple issues over the past few months. I am NOT his biggest fan. Sometimes he can be a tool. But in this he is 100% right.

If by glaring downsides I end up playing a game I like. Oh well.

...and what fallicy did endorse?

I stopped buying consoles because I just beat a $60 game in a week or so, the last refuge of a CHALLENGE was the PC.

So now we have F2P which apparently means that every game must be **** so the weak-minded will play it. Which just breeds crappy games.

Minecraft, LoL, Tanks, WoW all of them, are crap.

[Sayyid]

Since they removed repairs because of some crying on the forums, the games economy doesnt matter. I have found Planetside 2 economy actually more rounded then this one.

The economy was fun and challenging and gave me a reason to play when I had to pay for repairs. I also played differently then I do now. Now I can just run around and do stupid things that I wouldnt do when I knew I had to pay for repairs that were worth more than the mech itself.

[Vassago Rain]

Yokaiko, on 15 January 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

And that is near all they bring.

Just goofing around the last couple days I have seen numerous matches with nothing but assaults and heavies, you of course you have the 2 -3L and a 2D games as well, but other then a random Cicada or trial CN9-D you mainly see phracts, cats, atlases and stalkers.

And that is near all they bring.

So you're saying new players should be limited to only terrible mechsx, thereby making farming out much easier for you, like how it used to be?

I bore of these gold delusions. Do something new. I beat you all down in my epic thread already.

[Sprouticus]

slide, on 15 January 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

And every mech in this game is viable now? If you want to be somewhat succeful in this game all you have to do is buy an easy mode raven with streaks (whats that about 5000MC). If your pugging you will do very well even if you die. Anybody who brings another mech is doing it mostly because they want to, not because it is viable. If you made it cost 50k to "service the ecm" everytime you dropped with it I'd bet the raven issue would go away, all by itself. (yay bring back jenners) Was R&R borked before it was removed, probably, but that was due more to the size of the reward and the 75% welfare state we lived in, not because it was inheretly wrong. @Taizan, can you honestly tell me that there is no disparity between players now? It would have to be an exceptional player to beat anyone who has been here long enough to accrue a decent bank account and speced up mechs, in a trial mech. I do not beleive matchmaking part 3 will make that much difference and even if it does all we will see is the better players taking the "best mechs" much as we see now with the 5DDC 3Raven teams in 8v8 drops.

Yes, there are issues. Using an RnR system is not the way to fix them. That's all most of us are saying. Fix the root causes of the problems and RnR is unnecessary. Fix ECM. Fix lag, Fix matchmaking. Make ERPPC/PPC/ERLL/LPL more viable. Do those 4 things and you don't need RnR.

As for disparity, that is going to happen with any online game. New players have to catch up. BUT, if the system is setup correctly, new players (after buying their 1st mech) should be able to be able to field a good mech that can compete. They wont have the wide array of choices, but they can only pilot 1 mech at a time so who cares.

Using your example, if a new player buys a 3L and **** it out, are they not on the EXACT same footing as when I drop with my 3L? My other 20 mechs don't do SQUAT after I click launch.

[HighlandCoo]

Okay NoONE is saying ther is NO PLACE for RnR. Just that as a balancing mechanic for cool gear it does not work. K?

[Vassago Rain]

Yokaiko, on 15 January 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

If by glaring downsides I end up playing a game I like. Oh well.

...and what fallicy did endorse?

I stopped buying consoles because I just beat a $60 game in a week or so, the last refuge of a CHALLENGE was the PC.

So now we have F2P which apparently means that every game must be **** so the weak-minded will play it. Which just breeds crappy games.

Minecraft, LoL, Tanks, WoW all of them, are crap.

Yeah, all those games are bad. Terrible games.

That's why their players number in the millions, while we have maybe half a million total signed up for ours, right?

[Yokaiko]

Vassago Rain, on 15 January 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

So you're saying new players should be limited to only terrible mechsx, thereby making farming out much easier for you, like how it used to be?

I bore of these gold delusions. Do something new. I beat you all down in my epic thread already.

Vassago Rain, on 15 January 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

So you're saying new players should be limited to only terrible mechsx, thereby making farming out much easier for you, like how it used to be?

I bore of these gold delusions. Do something new. I beat you all down in my epic thread already.

LOL Get a job and one day you can be a gold to.

...and I can do just fine in my "crappy" mechs. Hell I did 4 kills and 700 damage in my barely not stock HBK-4G SOLO dropping.

My numbers go down in group play, more people are carrying the load. Ever watch an 8 man drop? Its usually relatively spread 350-500 damage and a kill or two at best across the board.

You get the big numbers solo dropping.

[HighlandCoo]

We are also assuming people will always make 100% logical, researched choices in their online robot game.

This is not the case. People will often do things just to have fun. Or because it looks cool. Savvy?

Even if I did have [insert your FoTM mech here] I wouldnt run it ALL THE TIME COS THATS DULL. I dont need RnR to FORCE me to not run the mech I would like.


This whole idea of "oh you had a bad match so now you can't run the mech you just built, you must play another until you can buy more bullets for it" just sucks.

Edited by HighlandCoo, 15 January 2013 - 06:51 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Vassago Rain, on 15 January 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

Yeah, all those games are bad. Terrible games.

That's why their players number in the millions, while we have maybe half a million total signed up for ours, right?

I care why?

Ever hear of the term bell curve?

[Vassago Rain]

Yokaiko, on 15 January 2013 - 06:49 AM, said:

I care why?

Ever hear of the term bell curve?

Ever hear of the term 'bad word of mouth?' It's quite the killer for games.

[Yokaiko]

Vassago Rain, on 15 January 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

Ever hear of the term 'bad word of mouth?' It's quite the killer for games.

This one got that covered.

For days and days.

The only people I know that like it are Eve players and MW franchise fans. Hell a couple guys I played the tabletop game with told me it was "watered down trash".

[MustrumRidcully]

Ivanzypher, on 15 January 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

The problem is, with no downside to fully upgraded mechs, eventually, everyone will have them. It might take a few months, but we'll get there. Then what happens when a new player joins? It's even worse than it is now, because EVERY single person has a fully upgraded, pimped out mech, ready to tear their crappy trial mech to pieces. Atleast with RnR there would always be some enemies in their less effective "moneymaking" mechs. Plus, when lagshield is fixed, lights will become rare again. Noone really uses mediums as it is, so it's gonna become Heavy/Assaultwarrior Online.

Yes, eventually eveyrone will get there, but unless this game is so terrible that players only join in singles every few months, there will always be other players that will also use weaker mechs.

And one of the key points of "don't use economy to balance equipment" is that you use something else to balance it. A match maker that can build equally strong teams even if teams use different tech levels, for example (If your team has to take the noob with a stock configured Commando, that's okay - you get to bring a little heavier mechs to compensate...). Or just designing the items so that the are balanced by the opportunity cost. If weapon X is two times better than weapon Y, then you can pack 2 of weapon Y or 1 of weapon X on your mech. A very simple system which is the entire tonnage and crit system build upon!

[Mawai]

Well ... my 2 cents ...

Balancing the game based on the reward system is bad because ...

- folks who make more can equip better mechs all the time ... even with a decent matchmaker, coordinated teams will always do better than others ... the matchmaker is not going to refuse to create a match indefinitely for these groups no matter what their ELO is so they WILL be matched up against lower ranked players - the matchmaker would be broken otherwise. A system like this favours those who play a lot, who play well, and who join teams.

- the goal of the game is to make it FUN for folks to play ... placing artificial constraints like this on the mechs they can play based on their in game performance and thus not evenly distributed across the player base will make many of the more casual players unhappy and thus quit. The casual players are likely the greatest source of income ... it is folks with less time to play (but with some money) who are most likely to buy premium time and hero mechs. You can't implement a system that threatens your cash flow.

- BattleTech is about mech matches with reasonably balanced forces and no economy. MechWarrior brings in meta-game elements. At this moment in MWO, we are playing BattleTech ... all of the economy/xp and such are MechWarrior placeholders until they get decent systems in place. You earn cbills fast enough to satisfy those who play alot. You earn XP to encourage you to play specific mechs and purchase 3 variants (since the cbill rewards just aren't enough motivation for many folks).

- The balance for different technologies in the game needs to be implicit in the technologies not in the economy. Thus every technology has its draw back ... DHS take 3 crit slots, Artemis requires an extra ton/launcher, Endo and FF require 14 crit slots each, XL engines take double the critical slots and have crit slots in 3 torso segments so destruction of any of these segments kills the mech ... in my opinion THIS is where the game needs to be balanced ... in the functionality of each and every weapon and all the specialized equipment ... initial costs for these just mean that you don't get to start off with a maximum mech ... but play a few games and you will get there ... and it will be fun to play with ... but the cadet program will only get you one and there are so many more to try. However, all of these have to be balanced in game and not through the meta-game. This is also why ECM is broken at the moment ... 1.5 tons, 2 slots, no heat, and a range of effects that substantially increase the combat effectiveness and defences of the unit as well as its team mates. As a counter to the also broken balance of LRMs and SSRMs ... it sort of works ... but it would be a better game if LRM/SSRM/ECM were all toned down and rebalanced.