284 replies to this topic

[Krubarax]

How nice of you to call her Katrina.
She would have appreciated that

Edited by GB Krubarax, 25 May 2012 - 04:34 AM.

[Sassori]

GB Krubarax, on 25 May 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

I read it. Some good points. some less good points.
I can only speak for myself, and I chose CGB before I knew *** Battletech was.
Because I thought they were cool. Simple as that.

And as long as I get to play CGB with those classic iconic mechs, I honestly do not care if the only difference is that Clan Lasers are blue and IS are red.
That should satisfy you too, quiaff?

Although I sincerly hope that the devs can, and will be smarter than that.

How fun would Star Craft be if the only thing you could build was Marines - no matter what race?
Drop the slavished thinking of the TT and how it got "ruined" by the clans and start thinking in modern computer-game terms.

Balance can be achieved even thougn we do not play with the exact same toys.
Now I really think it is time to bury this dead horse


Edit: Oh, just for fun.
I thought I might add that concernign the TT.
I am just finishing my CGB Trinary of mixed iconic CGB mechs (many Firemoths and Vipers - hooah!) All stock variants of course.

My next force will be a Capellan, mostly comprised of tanks, VTOLS and support vehicles.
One lance of mixed Capellan mechs. At most two

StarCraft is NOT similar to Clan vs Inner Sphere. It's just not.

How fun was command and conquer? Was a ton of fun. How fun is Halo Multiplayer? Or Unreal Tournament? Half-Life 2 multiplayer? Left 4 Dead?

They're all fun, but trying to compare the Clans and Inner Sphere to StarCraft is not working.

Inner Sphere = Terrans.
Clans = Terrans with a cheat code.

I also find it somewhat insulting that it is 'slavish' to enjoy playing the setting I like. What is wrong with enjoying an original setting? I used to like Vanilla WoW until Elves went to the dark side (Literally) and Space Goats somehow became cool. I struggled through though because I had friends playing it, but I wasn't wrong to enjoy it and wish they hadn't done it.

In the end, it's not my game. I don't get to make that choice. The only choice I /can/ make is whether or not I will /choose/ to play it. I've chosen to leave other games, and if the Clan Invasion ruins this one, I'll be gone from here too. I won't play a game I dislike just to please someone else ever again.

To directly refute: Modern game terminology. If Side A has normal guns, and Side B has guns that are 50% stronger that's not balanced. It's called cheating. Any attempt at balance will go away right quick and I will explain why:

Scenario 1:
Side A has 12 soldiers, Side B has 8 soldiers (50% more forces to account for 50% less firepower). Side A spreads out to try and flank, Side B moves as a cluster and focus fires everything they see. Side A is soon obliterated.

Scenario 2:
Side A keeps to a cluster of 12 after getting steam rolled by focus fire. Side B still moves as a cluster. Side A has so many mechs they get into each others lines of fire and cannot efficiently bring to bear all of their less potent weapons. Side B having less mechs but same firepower still applies it more easily and efficiently. Side A gets obliterated again.

Scenario 3:
Side A splits into their groups and decides to ambush and sniper and try and split Side B up to make them easier targets. Scout Lance A successfully draws off a mech from Side B, except, Side B's mech is 55 tons, can outrun Side A's light mechs, and has enough firepower to core a Side A Light mech in a single volley. Single Side B Mech kills 4 mechs on it's own.

I can go on and on. The imbalance that exists when you have more powerful tech is not something easily balanced by simply taking less numbers. It's simply not because the human element will destroy any attempts at balance that PGI tries to put in place. Thus, Clan should never be a PC choice in my opinion.

Also:

GB Krubarax, on 25 May 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

Then they came back with all their nice tech - and hordes upn hordes of whiners cried.
And then this dude, Victor, after assassinating his uncle (Ryan was his uncle right?) for killing his brother, went after his sister, who had murdered their mother (and victors beloved), and all the galaxy burned around them, since millions upon millions of people got dragged into their nasty family business.

bliss

Hordes upon Hordes of Whiners cried? That was mature. [/sarcasm]

[Infine]

Kittygrinder, on 25 May 2012 - 04:32 AM, said:

It was all Katrina's fault. That girl was crazy. She killed Victors brother, wife, mother, and god knows who else.

Yeah. And Hance was a cool guy. Wasn't afraid of anything and killed Cappies for ***** and giggles. After all, there is no better marriage present than a bunch of dead cappies. I think Davion and Liao family actually have common ascentors. It's just some are written as Sues and some are written as punching bags.

[Krubarax]

Christopher Dayson, on 25 May 2012 - 04:37 AM, said:

Sorry. I just had to take that cheap shot

Anyways.
I am by no means telling to stop playing TT. Or to stop doing anything you like.
But you should not think that the devs, developing this game are CHAINED to the TT rules.
As they themselves have mentioned, several times: some things do not translate well from TT to computer gaming.

I think they will do whatever they can to balance the game. And I believe they will succeed.

I am not a game developer. But in less than short time, I can come up with a possible solution.
First off. Do not make the weapons 50% more powerful. That one was quite obvious.
Second: allow every IS player a respawn.
After you die, you get to come back with a fresh mech and finnish that dude off.
He will be bleeding and limping if you are not the worst jock around, and with you and your friends back around with completly fresh mechs, and the intel you gathered on his playstyle and equipment from the first fight - you should be able to pick him off.
Shouldn´t you? (that contraction tasted.. eeewww)

Edited by GB Krubarax, 25 May 2012 - 05:09 AM.

[Kael Tropheus]

I understand the balance issues, although that was rectified by later point/tonnage multipliers. You(clan) get 100 points, the IS guy gets 150. I like the lore of the clans, the idea of it is great. Honor above all, no full scale war, just send your elite, pick a place so as to minimize collateral damage, flag changes hands and life goes on. Very organized and they speak proper English. Whats not to like?

[Cruxshadow]

It's just because the IS fanboys can't deal that there is something better out there.

[Kittygrinder]

Kael Tropheus, on 25 May 2012 - 04:47 AM, said:

I understand the balance issues, although that was rectified by later point/tonnage multipliers. You(clan) get 100 points, the IS guy gets 150. I like the lore of the clans, the idea of it is great. Honor above all, no full scale war, just send your elite, pick a place so as to minimize collateral damage, flag changes hands and life goes on. Very organized and they speak proper English. Whats not to like?

In the new BV system you dont need to that kind of thing any more. Everyone gets the same point values, but clan mechs are almost always more expensive.

[Max Liao]

Cruxshadow, on 25 May 2012 - 04:48 AM, said:

It's just because the IS fanboys can't deal that there is something better out there.

If you feel that playing with over-powered munchkin tech in a game is better, sure. Here, the cheat code for BattleTech is: Up, Down, Triangle, Y, ...

Infine, on 25 May 2012 - 04:38 AM, said:

Yeah. And Hance was a cool guy. Wasn't afraid of anything and killed Cappies for ***** and giggles. After all, there is no better marriage present than a bunch of dead cappies. I think Davion and Liao family actually have common ascentors. It's just some are written as Sues and some are written as punching bags.

As a "Cappie" I have to admit that if MY House Lord was cloned, allowing the enemy to almost rule my entire realm, I may get some joy in stomping them into the ground.

[Sassori]

Well he wasn't cloned. They found a guy who looked like him, did some surgery, and brain wiped him and implanted him with artificial memories so he thought he really was Hanse.

[Max Liao]

Good correction ... I was just trying to make the point.

[Sylow]

As the topic moves to balance, i guess clammers will find some disappointment on the road ahead. For the storyline, players might find themself being stomped into the ground by NPC clan mechs for a limited time, but for a healthy PvP environment, matches have to be set up in a way that both sides have equal chances of victory.

Options i see:
1. The gear advantage of clans is much smaller, even nonexistant, to what IS players can field. (E.g. IS players fight clan NPCs for a few months. When clans get opened to players, there's enough clan loot available to IS players that both sides field equal technology. )

2. Matches are set up by BV, and clan teams usually hold less players than IS teams. This might sound allright on paper, but is a killer for the playerbase. For easier numbers, let's say clans can bring 6 mechs against a lance of 12 IS mechs. While IS might then have a 50% chance of winning and thus the match seems "even", the IS pilot has to expect a chance of 75% of his mech being shot down. This inevitably will frustrate most of the players, which again is no good for a healthy community.

3. Clans are limited to mechs of "adequate power". So if IS fields 12 mechs of a total of 1000 tons, you'll see 12 clan mechs of a total of 500 tons. (Numbers still pulled out of my nose, but they are good enough to make the example. )

For a healthy community, the third option is the most likely to come. (And for the claner RP: A well piloted Stormcrow defeats an Atlas, so if you need any better mech, you state that you are a bad pilot, quiaff? )

Edited by Sylow, 25 May 2012 - 05:17 AM.

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

I dislike the clans because they attract the worst kind of players (not pointing fingers, just general observation).

The players who claim to play clan for the lore, but really just want an excuse to use the advanced clan tech. The players who conveniently forget zellbrigen when it suits them. The players who make up their own honor code and expect everyone else to follow it. The players who really just want to win by any means nessesary and attempt to use clan doctrine to justify acting like a spoiled child.

I'm excited about MW:O because for once I don't have to deal with everyone and his brother rolling clan tech all the time, and when clan tech becomes available to MW:O players, I'll probably leave the game.

Edited by eldragon, 25 May 2012 - 05:26 AM.

[farrel wolf]

well haters will hate but i for one think of the clans as superior beings from beyond the periphery

[Krubarax]

Sylow, on 25 May 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

As the topic moves to balance, i guess clammers will find some disappointment on the road ahead. For the storyline, players might find themself being stomped into the ground by NPC clan mechs for a limited time, but for a healthy PvP environment, matches have to be set up in a way that both sides have equal chances of victory.

So far, in thsi thread, I have not seen one single person argue for that Clans should have any andvantage at all.
Different yes. Balance yes. Advantage - where?
So why would anyone be disappointed?
Also, devs have said that they have no plants to implement any PvE at all, at this moment.
And sure they will already have a plan for the clans. It is pretty close to the invasion at launch.

Quote

2. Matches are set up by BV, and clan teams usually hold less players than IS teams. This might sound allright on paper, but is a killer for the playerbase. For easier numbers, let's say clans can bring 6 mechs against a lance of 12 IS mechs. While IS might then have a 50% chance of winning and thus the match seems "even", the IS pilot has to expect a chance of 75% of his mech being shot down. This inevitably will frustrate most of the players, which again is no good for a healthy community.

Even if one side is MUCH better, there will never be, in practice, this game of numbers and chance.
If I have a machine gun and you a knife, you can not calculate how big chance there is for me to win.
I might be a lousy shot or it might jam or I might drop it at my farking toes.
Maybe I do not know where you are, and you sneak up behind me.
Your play with numbers and chance is wrong.
Not even a Dire Wolf can stand up to 12 catapults hammering it at the same time.

I think my respawn Idea could work.
Or some other balancing factor.

Edited by GB Krubarax, 25 May 2012 - 05:24 AM.

[Goldhawk]

MortarionX, on 24 May 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

Obviously im not well versed in Mech Warrior Lore. I discovered Mech Warrior in MW 4 Mercs and I love it. But, looking around the forums I've seen that there seems to be a lot of hate/indefference toward the Clans and Clan tech. Is Clan tech not usually superior? Some explanation would be nice.

The tech is wonderful and lighter and does more damage then the Inner Sphere counterparts. But.... The problem is that the Clanners tend to have the worst qualities of each region of people in the world. They fight over everything (like Americans), yet you must fight according to their rules (like the British), are extremely snobbish (like the French), and they believe that contractions are foul. Oh yea, and when you hit age 30, you become a baby sitter for new up and coming clansmen.
Ah! Almost forgot, there is the issue of Incest going around in the Clan world, since the children that you grow up with in your sibko that are like your brothers and sisters, you have sex with them.... Oh, and lastly, You don't know who your "biological" fathers so essentually every clans man is a ummm. Freshwater fish called a bass and you can figure out the rest.

Edited by Goldhawk, 25 May 2012 - 05:47 AM.

[Krubarax]

That is not from a biased and simplified point fo view

[Magnificent Bastard]

The only good clanner is a dead clanner... but really; clan pilots are good people but I foster a hatred for them in the same way my Horde character hated Alliance characters in WoW. I just adopt the mentality of the role I choose because it is more fun to PVP that way. If I have two opponents and one is an IS pilot and the other is a clanner... I'll be gunning for the clanner.

[KingCobra]

They all(mostly TT players) hated the Clans Because they were scared of change from a RP and PC on line perspective they were great and quite fun.

[Major Bill Curtis]

Here's why I <3 the Clans:

For the same reason I <3 the Word of Blake(!),

because I run a TT RPG version of Battletech, and challenging my players while having to handle only about half as many 'mechs as I would otherwise is a real boon . . .

which is the point, of course, of having beefed-up the tech of the "bad guys." From a game-design standpoint for an over the table RPG, it makes a lot of sense.

I've said it elsewhere, but from a game design standpoint here, adjusting the modules for Clanners will go a long way toward balancing combats (no "charging" for Clanners for example; no air strikes or artillery barrages for them either, as these would be "dishonorable").

BTW, I will only be driving IS 'mechs in MW:O. I have already driven so many Clan/WoB maxed-out rides over the table. My players need challenges . . .

Edited by Major Bill Curtis, 25 May 2012 - 06:02 AM.

[Cifu]

Sylow, on 25 May 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

Options i see:
1. The gear advantage of clans is much smaller, even nonexistant, to what IS players can field. (E.g. IS players fight clan NPCs for a few months. When clans get opened to players, there's enough clan loot available to IS players that both sides field equal technology. )

It's become a Clan vs. Clan battle, where everyone using Clan mech's and clan tech...