237 replies to this topic

[Broceratops]

Orzorn, on 13 January 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

So then you wouldn't have any trouble adapting to the changes the OP was proposing?

Just saiyan.

no problems at all. well i'd have to change a third of my mechs because srm's would be useless, but it wouldn't affect the other ones.

now if they nerf ML and Gauss and LL and SRM and AC/20 and whatever else random weapons people QQ about then I'd be in a rough spot

[Kensaisama]

ove bababoke, on 13 January 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

Let`s nerf all weapon and use sticks!

I concur, however I will sharpen mine and be accused of having an overpowered stick. LOL

[w0rm]

Kensaisama, on 13 January 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

I concur, however I will sharpen mine and be accused of having an overpowered stick. LOL

I'm gonna destroy you by boating them. 1 stick per hand.

[Tuoweit]

I'm not sure SRMs do too much damage, but it's possible. They DO require you to get very close to deliver that damage effectively, so they should have some payout for that - but it's just not very hard to get that close (except maybe in a Stalker) in the game right now. When we get some larger maps maybe we'll see the balance shift to longer-range weapons, and we'll see whether SRMs continue to dominate - I wouldn't change them right now.

However there are a lot of knees jerking in this thread...

XWorldEaterX, on 13 January 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

They only seem like they have super high damage because of the atlas's and catapults that are boating them. Notice you don't feel like you just got ripped apart when you get hit by a light or hunchback using two srm 6's?

You're right, my 2xSRM6 Hunchback only routinely gets 900 damage, not 1000... they ARE the most effective brawling weapon right now.

Broceratops, on 13 January 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

good players adapt, bad players qq until things get nerfed then qq about whatever the good players switch over to. turn yourself into a good player to break the cycle.

I think you mean "metagamers" rather than "players" in that sentence. It may be hard to for you to believe from your point of view, but some good players actually care whether the game is well balanced and want several viable options instead of a couple of "best" ones.

Broceratops, on 13 January 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

because srm's would be useless, but it wouldn't affect the other ones.

Balanced is useless? Oh yes, I forgot, only the best is any good for a good metagamer, the rest is garbage. Try if you will to imagine a game where there are multiple equally valid choices... this is what the rest of us call balance, outside your little bubble of self-interest.

[Rift Hawk]

Vassago Rain, on 13 January 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

It's a shotgun. It spreads all over anything you shoot. You'll do hundreds of damage, but it doesn't kill as quickly as focused AC fire.

Very true. My only complaint about SRMs is that someone boating them can wipe out every single gun on your mech in 1-2 shots. I've had SRM cats take out all my guns that way so many times I can't count that high anymore. Having both arms taken out and both shoulders all at the exact same time is a little dumb. That would be the only reason why I would support them being reconfigured. Though if there was a way to limit boating of weapons (Which I hate) that would completely solve the problem. As it is only when they are boated that I run into this problem.

[Kensaisama]

w0rm, on 13 January 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

I'm gonna destroy you by boating them. 1 stick per hand.

Well played sir, well played

[Thuzel]

Short answer: Yes, SRMs are significantly overpowered and anyone saying otherwise either isn't being objective or isn't paying attention.

Long answer: It's the same effects that make medium and small lasers so much more effective here than in TT, but is amplified with SRMs: controllable hit locations and a wonky heat system. Also, with the way PGI has set up weapon ranges, what should be "short" range (less than 270 meters or so) turns out to be where the vast majority of action takes place. That means that an SRMs effective range of less than 270 meters is not much of a restriction. In fact, I'd argue that most encounters tend to take place at less than 200 meters, which pretty much makes any sort of range restriction almost meaningless.

Consider the rough damage output (using DPS and the medium laser as measuring sticks):
A mech with 6 SRMs can throw out 80 to 90 damage per strike with a cycle time of 4 seconds. That gives it a sustained 20 to 22.5 DPS for as long as it can fire. This produces 22 to 24 heat per strike, accumulating 5.5 to 6 heat per second.

Compare that to a mech with 6 medium lasers doing 30 damage a strike with a cycle time of 3 seconds. That gives the laser mech 10 DPS. This produces 24 heat per strike, accumulating 8 heat per second.

Also, SRMs are supposed to have ammo as a balancing factor but SRMs are very ammo efficient. At most, the SRM mech would need 2 tons of ammo per launcher, giving it about 32 to 34 salvo's (that's at least 128 seconds of non-stop fire), so the SRM mech only needs 9 to 12 tons of ammo. This is also offset by the lower heat requirement because the laser mech will require more heatsinks.

Consider also that they both have similar ranges and hit efficiency since you'll spread damage with the lasers about as much as you'd spread it with the SRMs.

So, you end up with what should be fairly equivalent builds, but the SRM mech does at least twice as much damage and probably runs cooler. And, even if you tried to introduce heavier more damaging lasers on the laser mech, you don't really change the math because of the heat factor (change out just one or two medium lasers for larges and you'll be very heat restricted).

Yes, SRMs are significantly overpowerd. Whether or not PGI will do anything, however, is questionable.

Edited by Thuzel, 13 January 2013 - 02:49 PM.

[Ghostly Enigma]

Wow told my guild mates for MWO that SRM's would be next to be wined about and they said never happen *facepalms* ya great wined about LRM's then SSRM's and now the SRM's realy guys what the hell is next? this keeps up and...............ah hell with it *walks off* you know what I'm not going to stick around to watch this game crash, burn, sink then get craped on from all this bullcrap congrats guys hope you get to like your CoD mech game.

[DeadlyNerd]

Ghostly Enigma, on 13 January 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

Wow told my guild mates for MWO that SRM's would be next to be wined about and they said never happen *facepalms* ya great wined about LRM's then SSRM's and now the SRM's realy guys what the hell is next? this keeps up and...............ah hell with it *walks off* you know what I'm not going to stick around to watch this game crash, burn, sink then get craped on from all this bullcrap congrats guys hope you get to like your CoD mech game.

Yeah cause getting 1shot by a 6xSRM6 85kph CAT is so not CoD like. You know, a game in which you die from 2-3 bullets and can sprint around. The analogy is hitting you in the face and you fail to see it.
Yes I'm boating them on the 8R and yes they're too strong. I'd use bigger energy weapons like a PPC instead of MLs but since those SRM6s do way more damage per heat than the 2 PPCs I'd add, why bother.
The only reason I dislike them a bit atm is cause the net code is screwing up the registration of hits. Imagine when the netcode fix rolls in. Who'll want to use streaks when you'll be able to as easily hit lights with SRMs?

[SpiralRazor]

They are not to strong though... Heres a clue and a wake up call.... SRMS used to be A LOT stronger then they are right now, and i mean A LOT STRONGER.



SRMS are only a real danger to larger and slower mechs. SSRMS were only a real danger to Lights and lighter mediums, pre-ECM. However, you cant compare PPCs to SRMS...not at all..totally different battlefield roles...your attempt to just paints you as being stupid. Im not saying PPCS are good, far from it, but they are used for a totally different role then SRMS.

Even if net code is fixed, youlll still be spraying damage all over the place with SRMS vs light mechs....much like x4 ac2 mechs spray damage around. High damage numbers yes...but as we all know raw damage numbers dont tell the complete story.

[Noth]

SomersetStriker, on 13 January 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

Yeah, raw numbers tell when others steal a kill. If someone with SRMs does 600 damage and gets zero kills it ain't because of SRMs.

Not the point. Precise weapons don't have to do nearly as much damage to kill since they can focus all that damage on a single spot.

[MajorLeeHung]

QQ post by someone who has no idea what he is talking about. SRM's are fine. what you need buffed is your personal map awareness and ability to work with and communicate effectively with your team to eliminate them before they become a serious threat.

Ill put money on the fact this guy uses a 3L and get pissed when he gets one shot by SRM's. lol

[PeekaBoo I C Ju]

Stop QQ'ing and learn how to play

[Writhenn]

We're complaining about SRM's now? This is priceless. /popcorn

[PeekaBoo I C Ju]

SomersetStriker, on 13 January 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

Coming from "Swimming Through the Stream of endless QQ".

Yes, the endless QQ i see in these forums, to be quite honest i may need a yacht to get through it all


Myself, i enjoy the taste of tears....i stop every 200 paddles just to get a refreshing glass of N00B QQ

Edited by Peekaboo I C JU, 13 January 2013 - 04:14 PM.

[MajorLeeHung]

Writhen, on 13 January 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

We're complaining about SRM's now? This is priceless. /popcorn

ikr??

[Thuzel]

Not complaining, just showing an imbalance. That's exactly what we're supposed to be doing right now.

It's actually pretty straightforward.

Damage spread from an SRM is almost identical to damage spread from a laser. I know this from watching countless others as well as playing myself and keeping track. So the damage spread argument is irrelevant. I can also tell you that at anything under 125ish meters, it's not that hard to put the entire SRM salvo into a single location, with just a little hitting off-target.

It comes down to numbers. Supposing for a second that we look at weapon weight and effectiveness with heat and ammo in the picture.

In order to be 50% heat neutral, a medium laser needs 6 or 7 heatsinks. That means that the weight cost to effectively add and use a medium laser is around 7 tons total. For that 7 tons, you get a single weapon that can do about 1.6 to 1.7 damage a second. Taking the weight and damage into consideration, you get a return on investment of about .24 dps a ton.

An SRM6, at 50% heat neutral needs 5 heatsinks. Adding in 2 tons of ammo, that SRM6 will cost you 10 tons total and will put out 3.75 damage a second. Using the same math there, we see the SRM6 gives us .37 dps a ton.

So including ammo and heat, the SRM6 is about 157% the effectiveness of the medium laser (the medium laser does seem to be well balanced right now). That number is way too high.

Considering you lose a little bit of range going from the laser to the SRM, I'd expect to see a small boost in effectiveness to the favor of the SRM, but nowhere near 157%. That's why we're seeing SRM boats that can absolutely dominate the field, they can simply out damage anything else in the field, by a very wide margin.

I know it's not always about numbers, but when you're talking about that much of a difference, the numbers need to at least be considered.

The SRM's damage needs to come down a bit, their heat increased, or their ammo reduced.

P.S. feel free to check my math, it's late....

Edited by Thuzel, 13 January 2013 - 06:06 PM.

[Noth]

Funny thing... many considered SRMs useless when they had their spread nerfed because they couldn't concentrate damage that well and you could kill more safely with other weapons. Nothing changed with them and suddenly they are OP?

[Thuzel]

Noth, on 13 January 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

Funny thing... many considered SRMs useless when they had their spread nerfed because they couldn't concentrate damage that well and you could kill more safely with other weapons. Nothing changed with them and suddenly they are OP?

Actually no, they've been OP for a while. People complaining about their spread were used to a much tighter grouping. Dealing with the "new" SRM spread does involve a learning curve just like learning how to reduce damage spread from a laser. Before that, people had gotten used to SRM's on easy mode.

Edited by Thuzel, 13 January 2013 - 06:16 PM.

[Fabian Wrede]

letting lrm and srm return to 1 and 2 pt damage and don't let ecm prevent target lock migh make for better balance overall.