261 replies to this topic

[HRR Insanity]

Sifright, on 02 March 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

I just don't understand how they aren't seeing these problems though.

Min/maxing is remarkably easy to do in any game as math heavy as this. You don't even need to break out spread sheets to see the problem examples and yet it takes a frustratingly long time for problematic weapons to be noticed as such by pgi.

My guess is that they do know there are problems... they just have no clue how to fix them without breaking two or three other things (e.g. ECM).

Edited by HRR Insanity, 02 March 2013 - 06:30 PM.

[Sifright]

HRR Insanity, on 02 March 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

My guess is that they do know there are problems... they just have no clue how to fix them without breaking two or three other things (e.g. ECM).

I find that idea rather discouraging. There are simple fixes to many of the problems currently plaguing the game that wouldn't be all that difficult to implement... at least in terms of conceptualization if not execution of code.

[HRR Insanity]

Sifright, on 02 March 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

I find that idea rather discouraging. There are simple fixes to many of the problems currently plaguing the game that wouldn't be all that difficult to implement... at least in terms of conceptualization if not execution of code.

/shrugs/ If they would just start by understanding how to make microtransactions appealing, they'd probably have the money to do anything they wanted.

Hint: Buying a texture PER MECH isn't ever going to happen. Textures need to be unlocked for all 'Mechs upon purchase.

[MustrumRidcully]

Sifright, on 02 March 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

I just don't understand how they aren't seeing these problems though.

Min/maxing is remarkably easy to do in any game as math heavy as this. You don't even need to break out spread sheets to see the problem examples and yet it takes a frustratingly long time for problematic weapons to be noticed as such by pgi.

I wouldn't call MW:O "math heavy". It has math, but i think it's overall pretty simple compared to so many other online games. I mean, have you ever tried to balance healing, or an aura effect that grants damage resistance or damage bonuses or makes you resilient to stun effects?

I find that really hard because the complexity of the modelling required here is ... extreme. It's amazing that some MMOs even manage something resembling balance... I completely understand why, say, Startrek Online is still fumbling around in that regard. But STO at least isn't really a PvP title. It sucks for PvP players there, but if 80 % of your community or more isn't even PvPing, it's understandable they never devoted serious resources to it. But MW:O is all PvP. PvE is not even on the horizon.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 03 March 2013 - 08:27 AM.

[Adridos]

Mgs are useful. They do what they are meant for... ie. destroy any kind of equipment present in unarmored parts of the mech.

If only thinkg you ever see is total DPS, then fine. Not every single freaking weapon and mech has to do the same damn thing.

[Thirdstar]

Adridos, on 03 March 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

Mgs are useful. They do what they are meant for... ie. destroy any kind of equipment present in unarmored parts of the mech.

If only thinkg you ever see is total DPS, then fine. Not every single freaking weapon and mech has to do the same damn thing.

Why do I always find you coming in at the end of threads and making a post without even bothering to read anything in the thread?

Seriously dude, not cool.

[Adridos]

Thirdstar, on 03 March 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

Why do I always find you coming in at the end of threads and making a post without even bothering to read anything in the thread?

I do those comments after I see the last 2 pages...

And HRR Insanity doesn't really understand the basic assymetrical balance.

[Thirdstar]

Adridos, on 03 March 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

I do those comments after I see the last 2 pages...

And HRR Insanity doesn't really understand the basic assymetrical balance.

No seriously, you have no clue the absolutely humongous amounts of discussion about the MGs and 'crit seeking', if you can't be bothered to be properly informed why do you feel the need to insert your personal opinion into a thread that you previously have had no contribution to?

[Sifright]

Adridos, on 03 March 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

I do those comments after I see the last 2 pages...

And HRR Insanity doesn't really understand the basic assymetrical balance.

You are posting information that is completely and utterly wrong.

MGs are awful and a newbie trap.

You are better off stuffing a larger engine or more heat sinks in that touching mgs.

[Adridos]

Sifright, on 03 March 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

You are posting information that is completely and utterly wrong.

MGs are awful and a newbie trap.

You are better off stuffing a larger engine or more heat sinks in that touching mgs.

Yes, they are not the best weapon ever and don't cut the deal most of the time.

However, unlike, say, SPL, which are useful only under such strict conditions that they are completely useless, the MGs actually do work. No omatter what numbers may tell you, I've had a match where a stupid MG Spider sneaked up on my Trebuchet and stripped me of all but a single TAG before I could get a second shot off.

Thirdstar, on 03 March 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

No seriously, you have no clue the absolutely humongous amounts of discussion about the MGs and 'crit seeking', if you can't be bothered to be properly informed why do you feel the need to insert your personal opinion into a thread that you previously have had no contribution to?

Because that's the purpose of the forums? To discuss things?

I don't remember the definition changing to a place you go to whine to.

[Sifright]

in the time you strip some components you are better off hitting the section with an srm2 and blowing the section to pieces.

MGS are awful for killing enemy mechs which is far more important than stripping a critical slot.

Can't damage armour, can't damage internal structure can kill equipment fast might get a lucky ammo explosion.

Worthless for the tonnage.

Absolutely worthless.

[Thirdstar]

Adridos, on 03 March 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

Yes, they are not the best weapon ever and don't cut the deal most of the time.

However, unlike, say, SPL, which are useful only under such strict conditions that they are completely useless, the MGs actually do work. No omatter what numbers may tell you, I've had a match where a stupid MG Spider sneaked up on my Trebuchet and stripped me of all but a single TAG before I could get a second shot off.

Because that's the purpose of the forums? To discuss things?

I don't remember the definition changing to a place you go to whine to.

This is what I'm talking about, you've jumped into a complicated math and balance based thread with a pointless anecdote. You expect us to think that's a useful contribution? it isn't.

And then you segue off into some nonsensical thing about whining. This is you, you jump into threads without the faintest understanding of what's going on or what the discussion is about and dump utterly wrong stuff like it's going out of style.

You aren't discussing anything if you don't actually take the time to acquire an understanding of what's being discussed.

Stop it. It makes you look foolish.

[Atheus]

I watched a quad MG cicada follow a disarmed and armorless atlas around for the last minute or so of a match pumping machine gun rounds into him constantly. The Atlas didn't die until he finally decided to use his PPC. Machine gun is still far too useless. You're much better off adding another heat sink, an AMS, or a little more engine, than a machine gun.

[Dark Baron]

They can't make the MG do more damage. Even if it only did 1pt of damage per round, it would far surpass the AC2 in dps, or any other AC for that matter, just by it's shear ROF.

[Sifright]

MustrumRidcully, on 03 March 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

I wouldn't call MW:O "math heavy". It has math, but i think it's overall pretty simple compared to so many other online games. I mean, have you ever tried to balance healing, or an aura effect that grants damage resistance or damage bonuses or makes you resilient to stun effects?

I find that really hard because the complexity of the modelling required here is ... extreme. It's amazing that some MMOs even manage something resembling balance... I completely understand why, say, Startrek Online is still fumbling around in that regard. But STO at least isn't really a PvP title. It sucks for PvP players there, but if 80 % of your community or more isn't even PvPing, it's understandable they never devoted serious resources to it. But MW:O is all PvP. PvE is not even on the horizon.

Thats a fair point, compared to eve online this game isn't math heavy at all. Working in transversal to accuracy and everything else is just bluh with out spreadsheets to do it for you.

point still stands that many of the problems are obvious if you spend any time looking.

Dark Baron, on 03 March 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

They can't make the MG do more damage. Even if it only did 1pt of damage per round, it would far surpass the AC2 in dps, or any other AC for that matter, just by it's shear ROF.

Dps is damage per second..


If it had a DPS of 1

it would be less than an AC/2 which has a dps of 4.

edit: also unnnghhhhh people not knowing what dps means should educate them selves as to what they are saying.... :|

MG does 0.04 damage a shot bumping that to 0.12 or 0.08 isn't going to suddenly make it magically beat out all the other weapon systems.

Edited by Sifright, 03 March 2013 - 09:29 AM.

[Targetloc]

Sifright, on 02 March 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

I just don't understand how they aren't seeing these problems though.

Min/maxing is remarkably easy to do in any game as math heavy as this. You don't even need to break out spread sheets to see the problem examples and yet it takes a frustratingly long time for problematic weapons to be noticed as such by pgi.

I assume they don't do a significant amount of data modelling. They talk about looking at game stats and heat maps, which is good... but that only tells you what is popular.

[Thirdstar]

Targetloc, on 03 March 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

I assume they don't do a significant amount of data modelling. They talk about looking at game stats and heat maps, which is good... but that only tells you what is popular.

Which is sort of part and parcel of balance though. Because the best damn hunters of imbalance are players.

It's not the entire picture but what's popular is oftentimes something that's also unbalanced.

[Targetloc]

Thirdstar, on 03 March 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

Which is sort of part and parcel of balance though. Because the best damn hunters of imbalance are players.

It's not the entire picture but what's popular is oftentimes something that's also unbalanced.

But that's why we get crap fixes like bumping Large Laser damage up a hair, then realizing 2 patches later that Large Pulse Lasers also need a damage boost since they're doing the same as LL now... and then ending up dropping the heat on all LL anyways... and then dropping the heat on PPCs and AC20s....

Something the data modelling players had been telling them was the problem since closed beta, but they couldn't see it until months of usage statistics showed them that the majority of players weren't using those weapons.

But there's always baddies that use even the worst weapons (see LBX10) so usage statistics are fuzzy at best.

Data modelling lets you actually play with the variables and get a real understanding of where the problem is. BTW, it wasn't with every single weapon's individual heat values.

[Super Mono]

If you could crit the engine without having to destroy the entire torso section then critical hits may be worth something. But you can't so they're not.

[Stingz]

Dark Baron, on 03 March 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

They can't make the MG do more damage. Even if it only did 1pt of damage per round, it would far surpass the AC2 in dps, or any other AC for that matter, just by it's shear ROF.

AC/2 has +1km range(more than LRM), MGs have 90m. MG damage will fall off quickly, and spray everywhere.