64 replies to this topic

[Av4tar]

ECM is too overpowered, One ECM decides win or lost. Tweak it or tweak something else.

[Solis Obscuri]

Strum Wealh, on 15 January 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

As it happens, I voted option 3 ("ECM should not be revised since its current implementation is satisfactory.") in large part because I've found that the majority of its stated capabilities can apparently be traced back to the BattleTech gameplay rules (specifically, the advanced equipment and Double-Blind rules found in Tactical Operations), or seem to be logical inferences or consequences thereof (that is, for much of the reason why one might vote for option 2).

As an example, I recently put forward a couple of posts (here and here) regarding Guardian's effects against standard-issue 'Mech sensors (that is, no BAP/Artemis/C3/etc) and how that relates to the BattleMech's ability to detect and lock onto an ECM-equipped opponent (with a bit of contrast with regard to Angel's effects).

Arcticfox9: I'd be interested in knowing what you think of the two posts I've linked above...

Well, with a little research I answered my own question:

Quote

SPOTTING PHASE
During the Spotting Phase. the gamemaster checks to see if any enemy unit is seen by an opposing unit.

To perform spotting, the gamemaster checks his map sheets after plotting the movement of the players' units. He first determines if the units can detect any enemy unit visually. Then he checks to see if they can detect any enemy unit by using sensors. The gamemaster then informs each player of the location, facing and type of any enemy unit detected.

Units that start a double-blind game using the Hidden Units rules (p.77, BMR) cannot be spotted except by the methods outlined in the standard game rules. If a hidden unit fires, it is spotted only if an enemy unit could have seen it under the visual spotting rules.

VISUAL SPOTTING
A unit visually detects an enemy unit whenever three conditions are met. First, the enemy unit must lie within the forward firing arc of the spotting unit. Second, the spotter must have a clear line of sight to the enemy unit. Third, the enemy unit must be within the visual range of the spotting unit. Use the Visual Range Table to determine maximum visual range under various
atmospheric conditions.

Spoiler

Vehicles with more than one crew member can spot in multiple firing arcs (see Vehicle Crews, p.28). Each additional crewmember beyond the first can spot in one additional firing arc, so that a vehicle with 4 or more crew members can spot in a 360 degree arc. Though infantry troops cannot see as far as BattleMechs or vehicles, they can serve as an excellent early warning system when properly deployed, because they offer the advantage of 360-degree spotting arcs.

SENSOR SPOTTING
Electronic sensors cover a wider field than most visual checks, but they can be fooled by the proper counter-measures. Electronic sensors operate in a 360-degree arc, regardless of the spotting unit's firing arc. All sensors, with the exception of seismic sensors, must have a line of sight to an enemy unit to detect it. The ranges of various BattleTech electronic sensor systems appear in the Sensor Range Table, p. 54.

To use a sensor, the player rolls 2D6. A result of 7 or 8 means the sensor detects any unit within its short range. A result of 5 or 6 means the sensor detects units out to its medium range. A result of 2 to 4 means the sensor detects units out to its long range. A roll of 9 to 12 means the sensor failed to detect any units. A spotting unit may use only one type of sensor per turn, and the controlling player must indicate this choice on the movement chart for that turn. (Note that the probe and sensor rules provided here apply in double-blind games only.)

Spoiler

Three enemy 'Mechs surround Natalie's Raven. Daylight fills the battlefield, and the Raven sees the first enemy 'Mech easily-the machine is within the Raven's forward firing arc, the Raven has a valid LOS and the enemy unit is only 14 hexes away, well within the Raven's 60-hex visual range. The second 'Mech lies 12 hexes away, within the Raven's LOS but in its left-side firing arc. The third lies in the Raven's rear firing arc, 19 hexes away, again within its LOS. The Raven mounts a Beagle active probe, which Natalie has activated for this turn, and so the gamemaster rolls 2D6 to determine if her Raven spots the remaining two "Mechs. The roll yields a result of 8, indicating that only units within short range are detected. This means that the Raven detects the second 'Mech, but not the third.

Vehicles have access to sensor systems similar to those used on 'Mechs, but in most cases these systems have shorter ranges, reflected in the Sensor Range Table. Infantry units do not have access to electronic sensors.

If seismic sensors are being used, any unit within range is spotted regardless of LOS. VTOLs cannot use seismic sensors, and they cannot be spotted by seismic sensors.

ECM SYSTEMS
Just as special sensors can make spottimg enemy units easier, special ECM systems can make units harder to detect. As a general rule, ECM systems mask a unit's nature and precise location from enemy sensors. but the systems' powerful jamming devices make it clear to the enemy that something is out there.

In the double-blind game, the Angel ECM suite, Guardian ECM suite and standard Clan ECM suites all modify the die roll results of spotting units attempting to detect an enemy unit equipped with such an ECM system. Because different ECM systems have different effects against different probes and sensors, the modifiers vary depending on the spotting unit's probe/sensor and the enemy unit's ECM system. These modifiers appear in the ECM Modifier Table.

Spoiler

To be affected, the spotting unit must be in the normal operating radius ofthe ECM system. This radius is not affected by LOS. If a spotting unit is within the range of multiple ECM systems, combine the effects of all the ECM systems.

Though ECM systems can prevent a sensor probe from identifying a unit, they also produce powerful. distinctive electromagnetic "signatures." If a spotting unit is in range of an active ECM device and fails to detect the ECM-equipped unit, inform the player that his unit has been jammed by an ECM suite.

The rules given here for each of the probes and ECM systems only apply in double-blind games. For general BattleTech rules governing the Guardian and Clan ECM suites and the Beagle active probe, see pages 122, 126-127 of the BattleTech Master Rules. For general rules and descriptions of the Bloodhound active probe, see Equipment, page 72.

(Maximum Tech, p.50-51)

So the way we target things in MWO essentially works like visual detection in double-blind play - if it's in you LoS in your 60º field of view, you can see and target it. The other types of scans allow 360º detection, and also allow better detection of enemy units under conditions of poor visibility like darkness, fog, etc. In Level 3 double-blind play on TT, ECM would prevent these other types of scans from working if the unit scanning is within the 180m range, but in MWO the effect is sort of reversed, blocking all types of detection outside the ECM radius, and then blocking information sharing inside the radius. So even considering the MaxTech/TacOps rules, MWO ECM is still borked.

Edited by Solis Obscuri, 17 January 2013 - 03:19 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Solis Obscuri, on 15 January 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

So how does all of that equate to not being able to target enemy 'mechs which we can see using Mark I Standard Human Eyeballs or IR/Mag scans? How does it equate to being unable to share data with friendly units? Where in TacOps does it state that Guardian ECM forces standard guided LRMS/SRMs to dumb-fire with decreased accuracy/cluster-hit as per dead-fire missiles or MRMs? Where does it prevent units from acting as spotters for LRM indirect-fire?

I can understand having difficulty with scans against hidden units or in low-visibility conditions, but the range of powers granted to ECM goes way beyond what you've listed.

Solis Obscuri, on 17 January 2013 - 03:18 AM, said:

Well, with a little research I answered my own question:

(Maximum Tech, p.50-51)

Does that not mirror what I covered in the second of my previously linked posts?
Specifically, the section where I stated:
"Guardian adds 5 to the roll result of the "sensor check"/"sensor detection dice roll" versus the standard-issue 'Mech sensors (while, by contrast, the more-powerful-and-flexible Angel adds 6 to the same roll).
Thus, even a roll of 2 against a Guardian-equipped target becomes a result of 7 (detection only at short range) and a roll of 3 becomes a result of 8 (detection only at short range), while a roll of 4 becomes a result of 9 (failure to detect) against the same target.
Looking at 2D6 probabilities, the combined probability of rolling either a 2 or a 3 is on the order of 8.4%... which means there is a roughly 91.6% chance of completely failing to get a sensor pick-up on an ECM-carrier while using standard-issue 'Mech sensors.
And, of course, if the 'Mech can't "see" the target, getting a missile lock on said target is quite difficult, if not effectively out-of-the-question.
Though, that wouldn't necessarily stop the pilot from observing the target with the good 'ole Mark 0 Model 1 and using either dumb-fire or direct-fire weapons. "

(And here I was, looking for something more far specific to missiles... )

Solis Obscuri, on 17 January 2013 - 03:18 AM, said:

So the way we target things in MWO essentially works like visual detection in double-blind play - if it's in you LoS in your 60º field of view, you can see and target it. The other types of scans allow 360º detection, and also allow better detection of enemy units under conditions of poor visibility like darkness, fog, etc. In Level 3 double-blind play on TT, ECM would prevent these other types of scans from working if the unit scanning is within the 180m range, but in MWO the effect is sort of reversed, blocking all types of detection outside the ECM radius, and then blocking information sharing inside the radius. So even considering the MaxTech/TacOps rules, MWO ECM is still borked.

Actually, ECM affects any action with a line-of-sight effect that comes into contact with the ECM field in TT as well - in fact, the TT rules (pg. 135 of Total Warfare, and pg. 136 of CBT Master Rules) explicitly address the situation of what happens when an attacker is on one side of an ECM bubble (but still physically outside of the bubble) and the target is on the other side of the bubble (but also physically outside of the bubble), with the attacker making an action against the target along a direct LOS that intersects the ECM bubble.
Likewise, making such an action (such as a sensor "ping" or firing a weapon) against the ECM-carrier itself would necessitate the attacker's line-of-sight coming into contact with the ECM field, so the attacker would still be affected even if the attacker is physically outside of the ECM bubble.
However, any LOS that doesn't contact the ECM bubble at all shouldn't/wouldn't be affected....

I also made a post about those types of scenarios, if you care to read it.

[Solis Obscuri]

MWO ECM still doesn't follow the rules, though. It prevents visual spotting on the team level, it prevents targeting of units in range of the ECM, it prevents LRM locks, prevents SSRM firing altogether, and it forces friendly units to be unaware of allies within an enemy ECM field. That's a lot of added capabilities compared to any level of rules from TT.

[Strum Wealh]

Solis Obscuri, on 17 January 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

MWO ECM still doesn't follow the rules, though. It prevents visual spotting on the team level, it prevents targeting of units in range of the ECM, it prevents LRM locks, prevents SSRM firing altogether, and it forces friendly units to be unaware of allies within an enemy ECM field. That's a lot of added capabilities compared to any level of rules from TT.

How, precisely, does it "prevent visual spotting on the team level"... or any level, for that matter?
ECM is not (nor does it mirror) CLPS, VoidSig, or Mimetic Armor - it has no "Active Visual Camouflage" component or function.
At most, it just means that units (including multiple 'Mechs clustered around a single ECM carrier) with appropriate camouflage might be more difficult to visually spot because one's sensors are prevented from picking them up and alerting the player (which, as previously discussed, is well within the capabilities of Guardian, as described in the BattleTech rules) - it forces the player to look harder and more closely, but it does not make the enemy visually invisible.

Has the targeting situation not been sufficiently addressed?
The BattleMech is reliant on its Targeting-Tracking System (TTS) to control its weapons (including determining missile locks) and use advanced electronics (Artemis, BAP, and so on and so forth).
The BattleMech's sensors act as the eyes of the TTS, and what ECM does is cause those sensors difficulty in identifying any potential targets within the ECM bubble as such (an ability explicitly granted to it by the BattleTech rules).
How is the 'Mech supposed to establish missile locks (which the Streak system needs to be able to fire at all, and which the LRMs use to track a target) when the TTS either cannot ID an object as a lockable target (no more than any random hill, tree, or building), assuming it can "see" said would-be target at all (due to the sensor penalties imposed by ECM)?

The inability for the 'Mech's sensors to identify a friendly unit within an ECM bubble would logically follow from the same BattleTech rules that allow for the inability for the 'Mech's sensors to identify an emeny unit within an ECM bubble - said rules actually make no distinction between friend or foe for third parties within the bubble, stating that "as a general rule, ECM/stealth systems mask a unit’s nature and precise location from enemy sensors, but the systems’ powerful jamming devices make it clear to the enemy that something is out there" and "though ECM systems can prevent a sensor probe from identifying a unit, they also produce powerful, distinctive electromagnetic signatures" (TacOps, pg. 224).
If an ECM bubble is capable of masking its carrier's sensor emissions and transponder transmissions from an opposing unit as well as interfere with any line-of-sight for sensors and targeting that in any way cross its volume (both explicitly stated by the BattleTech rules), then it stands to reason that it could and would jam or mask the transponders or enemy units within the bubble as well.

In summary: which (if any) specific BattleTech rules does the current implementation of ECM explicitly and directly contravene?

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Also, one particular statement from this post might be of interest to the thread, in general...

Paul Inouye, on 16 January 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

Hot topic: ECM... yes... I've got a write up on our stance on the situation but I will not release it until I can confirm 2 features I want in the game before I do so.

A portent of additional information (and/or changes) to come?