49 replies to this topic

[Ravennus]

I'm still thinking of doing an uber scout version of the 5D, that mainly acts as a TAG spotter.

Obviously I'm not going to be able to fit in the ERPPC like I wanted, and I'll actually need to be in a decent team, but I think it's possible.

Something like this. SDR-5D
(Yes, it has BAP.... hopefully it gets a buff someday)


Last week I played against a team that had a 3L who did almost nothing but spot for his LRM buddies using TAG, and it was devastating.
Obviously I would need to stop solo PUGing and finally join a good clan, but I would think that the 5D spider would be pretty good in this role.
He wouldn't be a good all-rounder like the Raven 3L, but the jumpjets would allow you to get to really good high spots that the Raven could not.

You would pretty much have to forget about any decent damage on the scoreboard though.

[Tesunie]

Maybe a 5K loadout like this? http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d180d216971feab

If you want to emphasize hit and run, removing medium laser for an UAC5 and just running whenever it jams could also be a good tactic. Along with staying at range...

[Tesunie]

Ravennus, on 15 January 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

You would pretty much have to forget about any decent damage on the scoreboard though.

If you have a good team, this could be a good help. ECM and up high, most people wouldn't even think to look for you. And if you don't cause damage, they wont know enough to look for you while a well made team rains death on them.

And, the scoreboard shouldn't be a problem. Good players know that, sometimes the most beneficial members of the team (especially in some conquest games), can be the ones that do just about no damage at all.

[Trystar]

Ravennus, on 15 January 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

Totally possible. Something like this, I imagine? SDR-5D

I see. Shows how much I know. Was not sure you could move the ecm all around, never used one yet.

[Trystar]

Currently running:

XL255
DHS
FF
ES
2x MPlas in r.arm
1x Mlas in CT
5 jump jets
1 ECM

end up with 1.51 heat eff
max armor
29.9 tons
every slot used

So far so good. Worth a try I think.

[Budor]

Ravennus, on 15 January 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

Totally possible. Something like this, I imagine? SDR-5D

Aye. I got the ECM in a Side Torso though, rather have them crit that than the engine Could swap mplas for mlas and put a BAP in the other side torso to.

Edited by Budor, 15 January 2013 - 06:13 PM.

[Ravennus]

Budor, on 15 January 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

Aye. I got the ECM in a Side Torso though, rather have them crit that than the engine Could swap mplas for mlas and put a BAP in the other side torso to.

Cool. But I was under the impression from dev posts that, while the engines can technically get crit, the crits don't actually core the mech or reduce performance like in tabletop.

You can only core an XL mech by completely reducing a side torso internals to 0.


I might put BAP and ECM in the side torsos anyway, just because I hate the idea of them being in the legs (just doesn't feel right) and the legs will take a lot of incidental damage from just jump-jetting around.
Plus I figure that with a mech as light as this one, if you are down to internals in the side torsos you are likely going to be cored soon anyway.

[Goodcore]

Is there any advantage to really take 5V over 5D?

Since 5D has arm hardpoints and ECM as well, I don't really see a reason to take 5V over 5D unless those 4 missing jumpjets make such a huge difference. Do those really matter?

[Wrenchfarm]

Goodcore, on 16 January 2013 - 03:11 AM, said:

Is there any advantage to really take 5V over 5D?

Since 5D has arm hardpoints and ECM as well, I don't really see a reason to take 5V over 5D unless those 4 missing jumpjets make such a huge difference. Do those really matter?

They don't. Do not buy a 5V.

[Nexus Omega]

I bought a 5V,
Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee,
Jumping is fun!
(Gets blowup mid air by a 2D, does less than 50 damage by end of match)

aw.

[Budor]

Ravennus, on 15 January 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

Cool. But I was under the impression from dev posts that, while the engines can technically get crit, the crits don't actually core the mech or reduce performance like in tabletop.

You can only core an XL mech by completely reducing a side torso internals to 0.


I might put BAP and ECM in the side torsos anyway, just because I hate the idea of them being in the legs (just doesn't feel right) and the legs will take a lot of incidental damage from just jump-jetting around.
Plus I figure that with a mech as light as this one, if you are down to internals in the side torsos you are likely going to be cored soon anyway.

Thats the impression i got to; http://mwomercs.com/...get-back-to-us/ Post #19

"Critical damage to the side torso hit boxes of XL engines deals damage to the engine as a whole. However, it should be noted that, currently, critical damage to your engine will not disable it, but simply add to your repair bill. This is likely to change when we do the pass on the health values."

until someone on this forum told me what this means is that they do not suffer any effects from that damage (slower speed, more heat generation etc.) but still get damaged ("...deals damage to the engine as a whole.") and thus can be destroyed once they suffer those 15 points of critical dmg.

I dont know to be honest, my english isnt very good and the above quote is somehow contradicting to me. I resorted to put non-explosive equipement that can "soak" critical dmg into side torsos on XLd mechs until this is cleard up.

Edited by Budor, 16 January 2013 - 05:13 AM.

[The Angle]

Grey Man, on 15 January 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

Bolded for emphasis.

HA! I laugh at your Cicada and up you a SPD-5K!! Also 4 ballistic and 1 energy, but with 5 tons less to work with!

Yeah that Cicada 3C is one of the worst mechs in existence (unless those changes to MG internal damage actually happen).

At least the 5K is cool looking when you fire all 4 machine guns in the air like an angry rebel of whatever ethnic background you think is best.

[Terradoss]

Hi Guys,

Being a dedicated Spider pilot I figured id just throw my two cents worth in as to some of the things I've learned and some possibilities for each of the variants.

Some general notations about the Spider I have garnered thus far.

1. You are a scout - You are most effective constantly on the move (never stop!), distracting enemies and lighting them up for others to launch barrages at. You're also pro at capping points in conquest games. (Or last ditch base capping in assault!)

2. Your firepower is terrible - In pretty much all circumstances your offensive payload is awful and is strictly inferior to basically every other mech in the game. Harass damage is typically the best you're ever going to manage and frankly I ignore my damage stat at the end of the match (whether its good or bad) because it isn't what I'm there for. The assist stat is a far more useful performance indicator at this point (because the goddam game score stat is still way way way too damage based and not at all reflective of alternative contributions zzz).

3. Do *NOT* trade blows- I cannot stress this enough! Too many spider pilots engage in the predictable behaviour of circling and firing at the enemy. You get away with this in other light mechs to a point because they have sufficient offensive payloads to actually win trades sometimes (SSRM im looking at you, you disgustingly effective thing). In a spider, you do not (excepting very rare circumstances) and all you are doing by engaging in this behaviour is giving your enemy more chances to hit you. Don't do this! You should be ducking and weaving, hiding behind terrain and obstacles, popping out somewhere else trying to maximise your target uptime with minimal exposure to damage.

4. Other light mechs are your bane - This one kind of sucks, but its very very true. You are, unfortunately simply not equipped to match up against other light mechs. Any of them. They have all the advantages in a confrontation all things being equal. Do not go head to head with them unless they a) suck horribly are very hurt and you can finish them off quickly or c) you have reliable backup. Your best bet is to use your (marginally) superior speed and manouverability to evade your way back to someone as quickly as you can, who can either blast them to pieces for you or at least scare them off. For now. I do however encourage you to shoot them several times in the back as they run away. O=)

5. This mech works best when you're an a**hole - Seriously. The odds are stacked against your fairly heavily when piloting a Spider, you have to take your enemy from behind when he least expects it. Lure them into ambushes, get them to take fall damage by following you off cliffs, hide under their feet and force their enemies to inflict friendly fire trying to blow you up, hell I've even legged a few assault mechs by full speed ramming them when they were damaged and once or twice finished someone off with a semi-miraculous jump from a great height that slams me into them with the full force of gravity behind me. You do whatever you can to make up for the fact that you lack in direct confrontational capacities. Anything.

6. Jumpjets ARE an advantage - It's true! Unfortunately prolonged jumps on a straight trajectory are typically less useful because you're an easy target (until we get mid air directional control anyway). You should mostly avoid these unless your only nearby enemy is one with a really bad range of motion on its weapons (aka cant shoot up/down very far), OR unless you are pulling off some sort of hail mary flying leap of awesome for some reason. Your best tactical uses for jumpjets are small hops which enable you to achieve inertia defying turn speeds/angles and expediting your passage over the top of obstacles that are immediately in front of you to discourage heavier enemies from being able to directly follow you.

EDIT: On a side note, the BAP is in theory a neat little scouting tool, but in practice, the bonuses it provides are fairly negligable and often not very useful in a practical sense. I really like the idea of it, but it needs to be tweaked or redesigned to be a worthwhile addition to a mechs repertoire.

Following are some of the builds I often use


SDR-5D "Speed Jammer"

The only spider variant capable of mounting an ECM and the only "viable" one worth looking at if you ask 99% of the population.

My typical solo build;

XL255 Engine (ZOOM. Speed best friend of all spider pilots. Faster is better.)

8/8 JJ (JJ's are one of the few things that distinguish you from other light mechs. Get them and learn to use them. They can be good)

DHS

ECM Module (You dont NEED an ECM module to pilot a Spider successfully, but you'd have to be pretty silly not to take it given the option)

3x MLAS (or some combination of pulse lasers if you prefer)

AMS System (You can take or leave this really, since you can typically outrun LRM's and are really hard to target with ECM anyway)

(Endo Steel & Ferro-Fibrous are pretty much givens on all my spider builds)

You can also toy with placing a TAG into the center torso slot for more group oriented play.

Basically the above build allows me to function as a royal pain in the ***. 3x Mlas enables you to put out some decent harass when ducking and weaving amongst your enemies with heat a total non-issue excepting very rare circumstances on caustic maps. The ECM you can use for cover when evading or running, or selectively to defend your team, but it truly shines when you're in the thick of it jamming the hell out of the enemy ECM's for your allies to take advantage of. (ECM is most often best used offensively on a Spider, don't let anyone tell you otherwise). I get some pretty solid performances out of this variant.

Another build ive been toying with is one that runs 2x ER LLAS and leaves the third energy hardpoint blank. Its a bit difficult to manage since those things are godforsakenly heavy, but dumping some JJ and the AMS system out as well as a bit of armour you can manage it. Gives you a surprising amount of punch. Another alternative is to use a single ER PPC for a ghetto laser sniper build.


SDR-5K "Baby Boomer"

The ballistic based Spider variant. Unfortunately at this stage given the relative lack of usefulness of machine gun mounts, which this variant seems almost exclusively designed for, it is veeeeeeery difficult to play effectively. But not impossible.

XL255 Engine (Mobility!)

0/0 JJ

DHS (Although strictly speaking not necessary due to the low heat output of ballistics)

1x AC/2 (3 tonnes ammo) (Technically you can run a build with 2x AC/2 but you have to give up an awful lot of armour to get it as well as substantially downgrading the size of your engine. Not worth it imo)

This one can take a little bit of getting used to. The AC/2 is a pretty nifty weapon, very fast firing, low heat and pretty solid DPS for its weight. It is however, very heavy considering the size of the spider chassis requiring you to give up all your jumpjets and can make loading up enough ammunition a bit problematic. However, that said mounting one enables you to turn the spider into a highly mobile mid/long range ballistic suppression mech. The rapid firing of the AC/2 and its range coupled with the spiders inherent speed mean you can rapidly redeploy to achieve maximum effect. Best use ive found for this build is to unleash a steady stream of shells at the bigger slower mechs from angles they cant quickly respond to. Can tear through armour in a relatively short space of time if left uninterrupted. One thing to note about this build is that attempting to engage in shortish range combat can be a disaster. Ballistic weapons I have found perform atrociously at short range with their fire delay.


Alternatively if you're just grinding the mech proficiencies you can load a standard max armour/JJ/XL 255 loadout and just stick an ER Large Laser in the torso slot and run around taking potshots at people while scouting. Works also.


SDR-5V "Jumpin' Jack Flash"

Also affectionately referred to as the "Poor Cousin" variant. This little mech is basically an inferior version of the SDR-5D loaded up with a couple of extra jumpjets. it also has the downside of both its energy hardpoints being torso mounted and thus having a pretty crappy range of motion.

Typically I will run a grind setup with:

XL255 Engine

12/12 JJ (You can jump a REALLY LONG WAY with this, but with the currently available maps its just......not MORE useful than having 8/8 on the 5D unfortunately, its just unecessary)

DHS

2x MLAS OR 1x ER LLAS

AMS

I kinda struggle with this one. You can make an effective scout mech out of it, but its basically inferior in every meaningful way to the 5D. The first thing that would make this mech better is if it were actually in any way useful to have this many jumpjets. Presently however there is nothing useful you can do with 12 JJs that you cant do with 8. They're unfortuantely a waste of space. Secondly, I would kill to have the energy hardpoints on this thing relocated to its arms. Either one in each or both in one arm. At least that way I could dump the JJ's and load it up with two ER LLAS mounts and run around zapping people from mid-long range as well as scouting. As it is though, the 5D has more weapon mounts, better range of motion on them, exactly the same speed and manouverability capability AND it has ECM. The extra module on the 5V is....nice? But its hardly an overwhelming advantage, or even a huge distinction between the two chassis'. Disappointing variant for me all told.


In Summary

You can make workable builds on all three variants, but i definitely feel like the 5D is in a much better place than the other two. Not because it is inherently overpowered by any means, but rather because the specific advantages that the other two chassis' are designed to provide, simply aren't very advantageous in their current implementation. I'm sincerely hoping machine guns get a bit of love so the 5K can be an effective close ranged "dakka dakka" nightmare and any tweaks that improve the usefulness of jumpjets so that the extras make a difference to the 5V would be great.

Edited by Terradoss, 06 March 2013 - 08:39 AM.

[Sixart]

Thanks for the post, Terradoss. I just finished the Basic tree for all three variants. I saved the 5K for last, and humorously enough it turned out to be my favorite. I ended up with this build which has these pros:

- ERLL for harrassing early game. At the start of the round, you stick back and harrass while the other mechs clash.
- 4 MG's for badassery. While battles occur, you scan targets and look for ones without armor in a location.
- Full engine to dash right into things and nail the sucker without armor. I've had some great games with this mech where I killed 4 enemies from ammo explosions.
- 2 JJ's for pivot turns
- Full armor to survive while killing with your MG's

I also have fun early game running around as an LRM magnet and dodging them with my speed while shooting back with the ERLL. I think the MG's could be buffed more but that people undervalue them since the recent changes.


The 5K is the champion of machine guns. I think you can put a massive weapon for one of the slots and make-due with it, but other mechs use that better. For the 5K, machine gunning is a way of life.

Edited by Sixart, 06 March 2013 - 02:15 PM.

[Isingdeath]

Terradoss, on 06 March 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

Hi Guys,

Being a dedicated Spider pilot I figured id just throw my two cents worth in as to some of the things I've learned and some possibilities for each of the variants......

Nice article and very well thought out. As a dedicated Spider pilot myself, I have one disagreement. As long as you do not run into a Ravel 3L or Commando 2-D you can really dominate in a Spider 5-D 3-ml 8 jumpjets 255xl (this has changed a little since the code has changed in the last patch or two but still it can be a very dangerous mech). With the absence of the above two mechs I consistently get 3 kills and 300-400 points of damage. The 5-D with three ml is fast, never over heats, and jumping can get you out of a lot of tight situations (you do need to have better than average aiming skills). Of course one mistake spells doom for you and your mech but I have more wins with the Spider 5-D when its me against the last three mechs on the other side than in any other mech that I have ever run with. That being said it does take forever to take down an Atlas (for the big mechs) and a Jenner (for the lighter mechs). The former has one mess load of armor and the latter is one really slippery SOB. The other Spiders are very weak and take a very very long time to get to elite.

[Wrenchfarm]

Good post Terradoss. I'm just sorry that after all your effort you found that two of the three mechs are basically write-offs.

Have you tried the 4MG Spider config since the patch? I found it significantly improved the CDA-3M. You're still going to be dealing the least damage on your team in the typical game, but taking out some components here and there might make you more of a nuisance to the enemy.

Here is a build that lets you keep a vaguely respectable amount of armour. It would probably be a good idea to drop one of the MGs and add more armour, but I'm a slave to symmetry. This build lets you keep your jets and the ERLLAS will let you snipe away at all ranges, hopefully helping to melt away armour so you can get at those juice internals.

Again, still going to be a weak mech, but at least this way you keep what is special about it.

[Terradoss]

Wrenchfarm, on 06 March 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

Have you tried the 4MG Spider config since the patch? I found it significantly improved the CDA-3M. You're still going to be dealing the least damage on your team in the typical game, but taking out some components here and there might make you more of a nuisance to the enemy.

I've given the 4MG build a couple of cracks since the patch and its.....better? but the big problem i have with is it mostly in a solo play environment, you're relying on other people to strip aromur off so you can destroy components. I find it best to rely on PUG teammates as little as possible in general, and this is something of an extreme case. when running 4MG's your teammates HAVE to be stripping people for you to be of any use whatsoever and i find focus firing is not typically a strong point of PUG matches. Makes it hard to be effective.

In an organised group? I have no problems with this build in terms of what it can do, the only point of contention I have is whether the role itself is actually worthwhile. By the time your team has stripped a mech of enough armour for you to start ****** components.....realistically the enemy mech isnt going to last all that much longer in most circumtsances, so i tend to think component destruction is of limited use.

[Wrenchfarm]

Terradoss, on 06 March 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

I've given the 4MG build a couple of cracks since the patch and its.....better? but the big problem i have with is it mostly in a solo play environment, you're relying on other people to strip aromur off so you can destroy components. I find it best to rely on PUG teammates as little as possible in general, and this is something of an extreme case. when running 4MG's your teammates HAVE to be stripping people for you to be of any use whatsoever and i find focus firing is not typically a strong point of PUG matches. Makes it hard to be effective.

In an organised group? I have no problems with this build in terms of what it can do, the only point of contention I have is whether the role itself is actually worthwhile. By the time your team has stripped a mech of enough armour for you to start ****** components.....realistically the enemy mech isnt going to last all that much longer in most circumtsances, so i tend to think component destruction is of limited use.

I absolutely agree with your assessment. To me, MGs ripping out components is a "oh, they COULD do this" not something to build a strategy around.

Basically a way of taking mechs with difficult hardpoint to build mechs like the SPD-K, RVN-4X, CDA-3C, and DRG-5N and doing something with all the ballistic hardpoints that typically don't get used (or force major concessions if you want to use them for an AC).

[Phoenix Gray]

101011, on 15 January 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

Just out of curiosity, why name it Peter?

Wang was taken?

[Terradoss]

Wrenchfarm, on 07 March 2013 - 05:25 AM, said:

I absolutely agree with your assessment. To me, MGs ripping out components is a "oh, they COULD do this" not something to build a strategy around.

Basically a way of taking mechs with difficult hardpoint to build mechs like the SPD-K, RVN-4X, CDA-3C, and DRG-5N and doing something with all the ballistic hardpoints that typically don't get used (or force major concessions if you want to use them for an AC).

Yah, I hear you. Although to me the MG as a unit feels almost like an afterthought. I know theyre present in other MW games and are canon etc, but as far as MWO specifically goes mechanically, it kinda smacks of PGI sitting around thinking "We kinda wanna stick ballistic slots on some light mechs, but the entire range of ballistic weaponry is way too heavy. Lets give em something thatll fit!"

It's just too niche at this point in a gaming environment that doesnt provide enough incentive and/or use for the niche relative to other available options. I don't really know what the solution is, but even with the improvements made ot them recently, machine guns are just not useful enough. Anything that provides such a crappy damage output needs utility. The utility that MG's provide presently is not only questionable, but is heavily conditional on circumstances that the mech packing them cannot effect by itself (cant penetrate armour to get at components). This isn't such an issue on a mech that's got other hardpoints to complement and enable MG's with, but on a variant like the SDR-5K which is realistically designed to have four MG's and......basically sweet didly dirigible dodgers otherwise, its just......not useful. Frustratingly.

Every now and again I take the 5K out for a spin with MG's and a tag, or MG's and a flamer (another red headed stepchild weapon mount) and quite frankly whilst i can still perform my role as a scout, I just dont feel like the weapons provide any significant contribution to my team. At all. One can argue that neither do a small number of lasers, but anecdotally they still feel more impactful than MG's do =/

P.S - The ridiculous range requirement on MG's is another sticking point. It's not uncommon for me to be in danger of getting stepped on, but thats an optional circumstance that i can CHOOSE to take advantage of when the opportunity arises......it's not somewhere I HAVE TO BE in order to use 80% of my mounted weaponry. being that close is ENORMOUSLY risky for a light mech since invariably you cannot avoid everyone's line of fire all the time and yet the option of running away renders you incapable of any form of offensive when rolling with MG's zzzz.


.....and while I'm at it, with four MG mounts ammo gets chewed through way to fast. Not that you actually have anything to show for it of course, but given the already restrictive weight limitations on a spider chassis, it bears mentioning anyway


/rant finished. Pesky MG's.