293 replies to this topic

[hammerreborn]

Roadkill, on 16 January 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

Worst reading comprehension, ever.

Spiders are a bad example at the moment because they're new. Jenners are a better example, and as already pointed out not everyone uses JJ in Jenners. That's because JJ are reasonably well balanced, so it's actually a reasonable choice whether or not you should use them.

Not so with ECM. If you can use it, you should. If you can use it and you aren't, you're hurting your team.

No they are not reasonably well balanced. Unlike ECM, the devs have stated that JJs are not functioning correctly and need a buff. People removed them on Jenners because at the moment they are little more than hover jets on anything that isn't a spider with 6+, not because they are "balanced".

Once JJs function correctly all Jenners and Spiders will still be running with them.

[hammerreborn]

Roadkill, on 16 January 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

Nope. Your failure to understand the point doesn't make the point any less valid.

Not everyone uses AMS on Mechs that can use it.
Not everyone uses JJ on Mechs that can use them.
Not everyone uses BAP on Mechs that can use it.
Not everyone uses TAG on Mechs that can use it.
Not everyone uses max armor on their Mechs.
The list goes on and on.

But everyone uses ECM on Mechs that can use it. It's very nearly 100%.

That's because ECM is too powerful for it's cost.

Only one thing on that list is varient locked, and that one thing is JJs, which are currently functioning below what they should and are still nearly used 100% aside from the heavier mechs because for them, JJs are useless due to their current functionality.

Your argument is bad. Not everyone uses max armor so ECM is overpowered. Good god it doesn't get more hilarious than that.


Also OP, endosteel and DHS, apparently.

Edited by hammerreborn, 16 January 2013 - 04:28 PM.

[Damocles]

Thread Title: "Devs ignore their players"

Dev response: "I do not."

Dev reply summarily ignored and buried by more garbage about ECM.

[Orzorn]

Garth Erlam, on 16 January 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

The fact is ECM numbers are dropping - in both pub games (a LOT), and in competitive games (a fair amount - the average is much, much lower than 'all eight Mechs'.

Thanks for your reply Garth. Everything else is great (especially the part about testing changes), but I wanted to address this one point.

A lot of teams in 8 mans have started to totally switch their playstyles over to ones that aren't hurt by ECM, which is likely were you see that drop in numbers (also, taking 8 ecm is a waste of space and tonnage. 2-3 or so is much more reasonable for most teams).This doesn't mean there isn't a problem with ECM, but rather, when ECM doesn't have its best enemies around (SSRM and LRM users), then there isn't much reason to take it other than for the cloaking. BAP and NARC are so underused that people aren't going to take ECM to counter those.

If BAP and NARC were more useful, ECM might still be being taken more often in order to get rid of the threat of those items. So, with 8 mans taking less of the items that ECM counters, ECM itself drops in value. Without a healthy electronic warfare balance, ECM is easily ignored by simply not taking SSRMs and LRMs. I know that the Remnant almost exclusively uses ballistics as our hard hitting support weapons now, although we were pretty ballistic heavy even before ECM was introduced. If we weren't mercs I'd swear we were Steiners.

Edited by Orzorn, 16 January 2013 - 04:29 PM.

[twibs]

hammerreborn, on 16 January 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

All spiders have JJs, so JJs are drastically overpowered? Until the JJ trajectory nerf all Jenners used them as well.

There we have it folks, JJs are overpowered because they are used by the people that can use them.

Worst argument, ever.

All Spiders have JJ because that's all they have. They have next to no weaponry so they have to offset that with something, and JJ is the only option to get any kind of advantage.

Anyways, Spiders are bad and so are JJ, atm.

[Beo Vulf]

Lets face it until the net code issue is fixed every time they add something to the game it will take two steps back. The net code is the foundation on which the whole game rests. As long as its shaky any thing they do to the game is going to make it worse. Making patch work fixes to video, maps, filters or to balance issues only partially fixes the symptoms it does not fix the under laying problem.

[Garth Erlam]

This'll be my last post on the subject, as Paul mentioned what we're doing in regards to speaking to the changes.

ECM being used on all ECM-able Mechs does show that it is overly powerful. The reason no changes have been made is it takes time to figure out what, exactly, is making that the reason. Is it the lock prevention? The 'cloak'? The range it works at? The weight? Crit space? Variants that use it? That it makes LRMs incapable of lock? SSRMs?

So while total numbers used isn't an indicator it's fine, it does mean people won't just go to ECM because it makes you instantly win. In fact, many builds aren't affected by ECM at all (my Cicada, in particular, does not discriminate.)

So we use that, suggestions, feedback, numbers gathered, watching 8v8's, etc, and eventually we come up with ideas. Then we test them. Tweak them. Test them. Tweak them. etc.

So while I'd love to tell you what changes we've made, none are in stone and until I have something to tell you that won't be wrong as of 9am the next day, I will.

I hope you all understand, we don't do this to be cruel, we do it because there is, quite literally, nothing of use to tell you yet, beyond that we've gathered our data, your suggestions, and are going through testing them now.

[Roadkill]

hammerreborn, on 16 January 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

No they are not reasonably well balanced. Unlike ECM, the devs have stated that JJs are not functioning correctly and need a buff. People removed them on Jenners because at the moment they are little more than hover jets on anything that isn't a spider with 6+, not because they are "balanced".

Once JJs function correctly all Jenners and Spiders will still be running with them.

While what you say about their balance is correct, your conclusion is not. There were people who didn't use JJ on Jenners back in CB when they were more powerful than they are now. I, for one, don't use JJ on most Mechs whether or not the Mech can use them. Even in CB when they were much better than they are now, I still didn't use them. And I'm not the only person who didn't use them then, nor will I be the only person not using them once PGI buffs them a bit.

Not the case with ECM.

[Corvus Antaka]

Tennex, on 16 January 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

no... PGI's most competitive players field 8 man teams with all ECM mechs.


of course they think its fine. you ever try to run an 8 man? nobody wants to make an 8man because they get stomped by PGI's most competitive teams with all ECM.



the ECM issue hasen't even been acknowledged

This. or maybe its the fact that since ECM patch, I have not touched LRMS since they are worthless, only use ssrms on ECM capable mechs, and otherwise only use direct fire. Or maybe its the fact that radar practically is non existant since ECM in competitive gameplay. Or maybe the fact that battles have gone from being all over the map to being 8 man ECM humpfests that would make Katrina Steiner giddie for the mech "****" it induces. Or maybe the fact that pre-ecm all my 16 mechs where fun and viable, now I dont waste my time on non-ecm capable Atlai, etc., now i play at most 4 of my mechs and really outside of checking out the spider have 0 interest in buying more mechs since it all boils down to exactly the same gameplay.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 16 January 2013 - 04:50 PM.

[Tasorin]

PGI is not ignoring its Beta Testers.

PGI is ignoring the unwashed pubbie masses of space poors asking for stupid things to be put in the game.

-SSSC

[Sir Trent Howell]

I rarely see ECM Mechs in pug matches now. The only Mechs that use them are the lights, and it's one the major reason for their survival. Seems logical.

It's more common in 8v8s, but that's because it's coordinated. Of course ECM is good. It's supposed to be. It is not unbeatable, nor is it broken. I can offer up my team to prove it. You can bring all ECM Mechs, we'll bring none.

[adam lewinski]

Grraarrgghh, on 16 January 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

List?

1) every problem presented is blown way out of proportion

2) no incremental change is good enough for this community

3) typically the criticism misses the "constructive" part

4) you rehash problems they have addressed every ******* day until they are fixed

5) unrealistic self-entitlement

6) narrow view of game development

7) everything is aired in public like dirty laundry rather than emailed directly to PGI

8) most ideas are myopic and don't take other playstyles/setups/people into consideration

Listen to VCRS!

http://mwomercs.com/...anuary-16-2013/

Best post ever. applauds

It's like these forums a dominated by pre-pubescent arrogant nerds who don't actually realise that:

1. We are finally playing MechWarrior after 10 friggin’ years

2. We are actually lucky that they released the game early for us to mess around with

3. Never, ever... EVER, has the community ever been allowed to be involved with the development of MechWarrior and it's universe. Feel privileged. They could have just announced it... gone into development and released it a few years down the track as a packaged deal, take it or leave it and how ever it came out, we would have had to just deal. Just like all previous MechWarrior titles.

If you don't appreciate the opportunity to play this game now, leave and come back when it goes Gold and launches. Simple.

Whinging, basement dwelling nerds are OP I say.

Edited by adam lewinski, 16 January 2013 - 05:09 PM.

[Roadkill]

Garth Erlam, on 16 January 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

This'll be my last post on the subject, as Paul mentioned what we're doing in regards to speaking to the changes.

ECM being used on all ECM-able Mechs does show that it is overly powerful. The reason no changes have been made is it takes time to figure out what, exactly, is making that the reason. Is it the lock prevention? The 'cloak'? The range it works at? The weight? Crit space? Variants that use it? That it makes LRMs incapable of lock? SSRMs?

So while total numbers used isn't an indicator it's fine, it does mean people won't just go to ECM because it makes you instantly win. In fact, many builds aren't affected by ECM at all (my Cicada, in particular, does not discriminate.)

So we use that, suggestions, feedback, numbers gathered, watching 8v8's, etc, and eventually we come up with ideas. Then we test them. Tweak them. Test them. Tweak them. etc.

So while I'd love to tell you what changes we've made, none are in stone and until I have something to tell you that won't be wrong as of 9am the next day, I will.

I hope you all understand, we don't do this to be cruel, we do it because there is, quite literally, nothing of use to tell you yet, beyond that we've gathered our data, your suggestions, and are going through testing them now.

Garth,

Thank you for your response. I understand what you're getting at and the trials/tribulations of game development.

I will respectfully disagree, however. The fact that ECM is used by virtually 100% of Mechs that can use it is a very clear sign that it is too powerful. As you said, exactly what about it is making it too powerful isn't clear, but if it were well-balanced then at least some people wouldn't use it even on chassis that are capable of using it. The fact that no one believes that any other piece of equipment makes sense on an ECM-capable Mech very clearly indicates that the cost/benefit of ECM is skewed.

Like just about everyone, I have my own ideas about how to balance ECM. But I'm more than happy to wait and see what you guys have in mind now that you've indicated that you're looking into it.

[twibs]

Garth Erlam, on 16 January 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

This'll be my last post on the subject, as Paul mentioned what we're doing in regards to speaking to the changes.

ECM being used on all ECM-able Mechs does show that it is overly powerful. The reason no changes have been made is it takes time to figure out what, exactly, is making that the reason. Is it the lock prevention? The 'cloak'? The range it works at? The weight? Crit space? Variants that use it? That it makes LRMs incapable of lock? SSRMs?

So while total numbers used isn't an indicator it's fine, it does mean people won't just go to ECM because it makes you instantly win. In fact, many builds aren't affected by ECM at all (my Cicada, in particular, does not discriminate.)

So we use that, suggestions, feedback, numbers gathered, watching 8v8's, etc, and eventually we come up with ideas. Then we test them. Tweak them. Test them. Tweak them. etc.

So while I'd love to tell you what changes we've made, none are in stone and until I have something to tell you that won't be wrong as of 9am the next day, I will.

I hope you all understand, we don't do this to be cruel, we do it because there is, quite literally, nothing of use to tell you yet, beyond that we've gathered our data, your suggestions, and are going through testing them now.

Thank you. This is extremely frustrating time for both sides of the coin and I appreciate the time you take to address it now.

For long I did not understand what was wrong in the ECM, but now I do. It's the cloaking at even decent distances, also blocking the lock on (obviously if you can't target it)

The lack of information is killing us. Who to shoot, where to shoot. Organizing anything is extremely difficult.

If you want to keep them sneaking, then let them if they remain over something like 500m.
LRM and SRM problem? Make the weapons require new lock on after every barrage. This would give the ECM's increased lock on timer some usefull purpose and not just another pain in the face of missile users who already can't do much with their weaponry.

LET SSRM be dumbfired like normal SRM under the ECM buble. Most of all, let us feel usefull again.

[Greyfyl]

Tasorin, on 16 January 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

PGI is not ignoring its Beta Testers.

PGI is ignoring the unwashed pubbie masses of space poors asking for stupid things to be put in the game.

-SSSC

Good job liking your own post. Typical internet egomaniac. Talk down to the rest of us some more, you can still get your head through you mom's basement door.

[Cest7]

They do listen, just 90% of the crying on the forums is just rabble.

They have to wade through the sea of poop to find anything worth their time...

[Pugnacious Stoat]

Grraarrgghh, on 16 January 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

Everything has been addressed and has proposed changes other than ECM, which PGI and most competitive players believe is fine.

Everyone who cries about ECM is a baby who hasn't played a competitive round in their life.

I agree that a lot of the anti-PGI outrage on these forums is excessive, but I don't think you're helping the community yourself when you jump to PGI's defence by insulting and dismissing everyone who disagrees with you about ECM. Like it or not, the debate on ECM is ongoing, and probably won't be settled before we get a firm and detailed response from PGI. If you're too sick of it to make an argument, that's fine, but the last thing this forum needs is more disrespect and abuse.

Also, this attitude of "competitive players know better than pubbies" is a problem. I understand that playing competitively can give you a better idea of what strategies and counter-strategies the current game balance allows, but do you really think it's impossible for a non-competitive player to see something a competitive player doesn't? Especially considering that anything that depends on team coordination to be used and countered reliably may make pick-up games more random and imbalanced, at the same time as it adds depth to organized play. In that situation, do you think that PGI should focus solely on the needs of organized players, and ignore the needs of everyone else? Unless the organized players are willing to fund the game on their own, I would reconsider that opinion (especially if you're going to make accusations of "unrealistic self-entitlement").

[Orzorn]

Garth Erlam, on 16 January 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

This'll be my last post on the subject, as Paul mentioned what we're doing in regards to speaking to the changes.

ECM being used on all ECM-able Mechs does show that it is overly powerful. The reason no changes have been made is it takes time to figure out what, exactly, is making that the reason. Is it the lock prevention? The 'cloak'? The range it works at? The weight? Crit space? Variants that use it? That it makes LRMs incapable of lock? SSRMs?

So while total numbers used isn't an indicator it's fine, it does mean people won't just go to ECM because it makes you instantly win. In fact, many builds aren't affected by ECM at all (my Cicada, in particular, does not discriminate.)

So we use that, suggestions, feedback, numbers gathered, watching 8v8's, etc, and eventually we come up with ideas. Then we test them. Tweak them. Test them. Tweak them. etc.

So while I'd love to tell you what changes we've made, none are in stone and until I have something to tell you that won't be wrong as of 9am the next day, I will.

I hope you all understand, we don't do this to be cruel, we do it because there is, quite literally, nothing of use to tell you yet, beyond that we've gathered our data, your suggestions, and are going through testing them now.

Thank you very much for this Garth. All I (I won't say "we", since I can't speak for all of us) want to know is what ya'll are milling around in your collective heads. Its nice to know that you are studied the situations (lots of us like to think you do, but people get concerned if they don't hear about it).

A lot of us are very critical, even snapping, at times Garth, but I assure you that many folks do it because Mechwarrior is an old franchise, and it was on the verge of death for a long time, and this is the only commercial game, the only company, that has put faith into the franchise, and ourselves our faith in them. Lots of people just want to see the game thrive and grow, and that is perhaps why they go on and on like they do, even if it may be rude, or downright trollish at times. Some people just have difficulties putting their thoughts or feelings into words, and end up lashing out instead.

Thanks for the response.

[Mikhalio]

Grraarrgghh, on 16 January 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

List?

1) every problem presented is blown way out of proportion

2) no incremental change is good enough for this community

3) typically the criticism misses the "constructive" part

4) you rehash problems they have addressed every ******* day until they are fixed

5) unrealistic self-entitlement

6) narrow view of game development

7) everything is aired in public like dirty laundry rather than emailed directly to PGI

8) most ideas are myopic and don't take other playstyles/setups/people into consideration

Listen to VCRS!

http://mwomercs.com/...anuary-16-2013/

Kind of need to agree with the guy:

10 threads on the front page lamenting F2P hand-me downs, or handicaps for players (limit Tier 2 mechs aka Clans, SSRM, ECW).

2 threads about their botched patch
1 thread about their choice to not inform their community of news releases, but focus on pumping further subs in mainstream outlets.

1 thread white knighting PGI's dedicated staff.

Now lets go look at the forum Nico built for quality feedback:

- 3 threads asking for pretty paint jobs
- 10 threads about light mech nerfing
- 2 threads whining about night-mode

0 threads about constructive balancing or bug reports.

Not much value add being generated by the fanbase at the moment if I only had 30 min. to forum check in a srs bsns day between the hours of 7 am and 10 /11pm Vancouver time.

But they did learn that a good way to de-stress, when not enjoying their fully expensed and furnished Howe St. digs, and arcade/fully stocked bar is to buy a cat called K2.

And that, ladies & germs is the full value add of the PGI MWO forums.

Think that's a wrap.

[Ransack]

Garth Erlam, on 16 January 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

This'll be my last post on the subject, as Paul mentioned what we're doing in regards to speaking to the changes.

ECM being used on all ECM-able Mechs does show that it is overly powerful. The reason no changes have been made is it takes time to figure out what, exactly, is making that the reason. Is it the lock prevention? The 'cloak'? The range it works at? The weight? Crit space? Variants that use it? That it makes LRMs incapable of lock? SSRMs?

So while total numbers used isn't an indicator it's fine, it does mean people won't just go to ECM because it makes you instantly win. In fact, many builds aren't affected by ECM at all (my Cicada, in particular, does not discriminate.)

So we use that, suggestions, feedback, numbers gathered, watching 8v8's, etc, and eventually we come up with ideas. Then we test them. Tweak them. Test them. Tweak them. etc.

So while I'd love to tell you what changes we've made, none are in stone and until I have something to tell you that won't be wrong as of 9am the next day, I will.

I hope you all understand, we don't do this to be cruel, we do it because there is, quite literally, nothing of use to tell you yet, beyond that we've gathered our data, your suggestions, and are going through testing them now.

Thank you for at least letting us know something. It would have saved a lot of angst had someone simply said "OK guys, we hear ya, we're looking at it". The silence of even acknowledgment despite numerous attempts at bringing it to your attention was the problem for me.

Edited by Ransack, 16 January 2013 - 06:04 PM.