23 replies to this topic

[SmilingElf]

While this post started in another thread, it took a sharp left from where I had intended on it going. After having read it over (and realizing it did not quite fit the original thread,) it seemed appropriate to throw it out here for general discussion.

The question is: Have the environment and attitude of these forums actually come down to almost purely a matter of faith? (Belief, trust, etc.)


The post (and the edit which prompted this) are as follows:

Quote

It's very hard to tell the difference between the people who are being understanding and reasonable, and the fanboy portions of the community. Phrases like "They're working on the issue," "Wait until X is implemented," and (gods help us) "It's still in Beta" incite flames that certain areas of the afterlife would shy away from. And while "When it's done." is the only honest and viable answer they can give regarding time frame, it's also the same song that would be sung if they were lying through their teeth and taking as much cash as they could before their game imploded.

When you get right down to it, it comes down to faith: Either they're lying whole cloth, or they're killing themselves on this project and being burned in effigy for their efforts. No amount of persuasion, "evidence" on either side, or attempts at reasoned debate are going to change anyone's mind. RL has taught us this.

With that said, I can appreciate the undertaking that group of people have been tasked with, and I hope to be vindicated when they pull through the other end. I will repeat those phrases as needed, choosing to give the developers the benefit of the doubt, and hope that this title will deliver on its potential.

The other part many people seem to forget, is that we control the cost of belief. And, even if you don't believe, it costs you nothing further to wait and see. Personally, if I'm wrong, I'm out $60. Less than the cost of a console title on release day, and a dollar amount I've more than gotten out of this title.

With that said, there is the expression "Faith can move mountains." The question is, how much further funding can it generate? I can only hope these issues are resolved before PGI runs out of resources.

So, there it is. What do you think?

*edited for a grammar error

Edited by SmilingElf, 17 January 2013 - 10:40 PM.

[CrashieJ]

the thing is, PGI doesn't know how to communicate with their community. Last time I checked, a couple of Devs said ECM was said to be working "as intended". This caused rage. If they had told us "ECM will be working as intended when both collisions and Netcode have been fixed" then we would be more willing to go along with it.

I will still play, no doubt, but just without the childhood giddiness I had when first starting out.

or a simple "we are testing ECM out, and appropriate actions will be taken once enough data has been compiled" but no, we're stuck in the dark. That is a big no-no.

Edited by gavilatius, 17 January 2013 - 10:41 PM.

[DivineCoffeeBinge]

The issue, to my mind, is less PGI's communication skills (which are lacking, don't misunderstand me) and more the fact that the MWO community seems to have conflated "requests" and "demands."

That is to say, it's never enough that a player says "hey, I have these issues with ECM, perhaps they could be looked at;" all too often it becomes "Hey, I have these issues with ECM, why haven't they been fixed yet, why are you people so stupid do you want this game to die and this company to fail what's the matter with you," which is not an attitude that engenders communication. Bluntly, if I worked for PGI I would dread the notion of communicating with the playerbase, no matter how necessary it was; no one wants to wade into relentlessly toxic environments. That doesn't excuse a lack of communication, by any means, but it does go a step towards explaining it.

Now, I don't think the matter can really be addressed by saying "people need to have faith." People's expectations are what they are, and after all, the thing about faith is that it can't really be mandated. But I do think some perspective needs to be had by all and sundry. No, the game's not perfect by any means, but there's a difference between reasonable complaints and unreasonable demands that I believe is being missed by a substantial portion of people. If we want PGI to communicate with us - to, in effect, treat us like adults - we really ought to act like adults. I suspect (and I admit this is my natural level of naive optimism shining through) that that might go a long ways towards making communication more frequent and informative and would have the nice ancillary effect of making the community experience better for all of us.

Anyways, that's my two cents.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Faith seems to be the driving force with some people to sustain their hope in PGI. Or maybe it's the other way around and their hope drives their faith... But what ever it is we shouldn't lose either. And keeping faithful and hopeful should also be on the same level of understanding and patience. We'll need to set lower expectations and know that things take time. We'll need to work harder on delivering better (not harder) feedback, and being constructive in what we say.

So, I've been called a fanboy, but the truth is I just want to see Mechwarrior shine again. I want to say that I've done everything I could to help this company along with their project. I stopped playing for a while because I know I just wanted to see more content faster. I came back shortly after, though, thinking there's a role I need to play, and I shouldn't give up if I want to help out.

[Terran123rd]

On one hand, you have a LOT of fanboys. On the other hand, a LOT of bashers. On the gripping hand, you have reasonable people, who may have either generally positive or generally negative views, or, rarely, are entirely neutral.

Both extremes are often over-emotional and are entirely unwilling to compromise, resulting in a great deal of flamethrowers being waved around; they also, unfortunately, occupy very large percentages of the community. Which leads to a, generally, toxic, broken, unpleasable, fan dumb community.

Fanboys have absolute, blind (or nearly blind) faith in PGI and MWO. Bashers have absolute, blind (or nearly blind) faith that PGI are bad people and that MWO sucks ***.

More reasonable people put faith in (or against) PGI but are willing to accept that they make mistakes (or occasionally get things right).

In a few words:

Yes, unfortunately, it has.

EDIT: removed some potential bias and typos
EDIT: more typos

Edited by Terran123rd, 18 January 2013 - 02:08 PM.

[SmilingElf]

gavilatius, on 17 January 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

the thing is, PGI doesn't know how to communicate with their community...
...we're stuck in the dark...

Hence, why I mention 'faith'...

DivineCoffeeBinge, on 17 January 2013 - 10:55 PM, said:

The issue, to my mind, is less PGI's communication skills (which are lacking, don't misunderstand me) and more the fact that the MWO community seems to have conflated "requests" and "demands."

Yeah, there's that, too. However, how often do you hear someone cite 'unanswered prayers' as a reason some sort of deity does not exist? Or in this case, PGI's lack of an immediate capitulation to their demands demonstrates a disregard for their input or a hidden, malicious intent.

DivineCoffeeBinge, on 17 January 2013 - 10:55 PM, said:

Now, I don't think the matter can really be addressed by saying "people need to have faith." People's expectations are what they are, and after all, the thing about faith is that it can't really be mandated.

The thought is less that faith is required, and more that the polarization of attitudes and responses I'm seeing on these forums reminds me of strongly of 'discussions' between people who have violently opposed, and equally unprovable views on an issue.

Due to the similarity of cause, the perceived lack of information from on high, and the vehemence and violence of some of the responses from advocates of either position, it struck me as similar to debates on religion. In retrospect, 'Faith' may have been a poor choice for the title of the thread; 'Belief' would have been a better choice. Does a member of this community BELIEVE what PGI tells us, and that this title will, eventually, reach the intended state, or do they BELIEVE that PGI has no regard for our input, or opinions on the matter, much in the way that some argue that an uncaring deity is no different from an absent or non existent one.

Until evidence, in the form of a completed (and working) solution to at least one of the major issues or improved (not more but better, as Gavilatius discussed) communication, or something else equally tangible, becomes available, we, as members of this community, seem to each make a choice, do we believe PGI or don't we?

(Or for the fans of Rush: "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice!" )

[SmilingElf]

SmilingElf, on 17 January 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

(Or for the fans of Rush: "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice!" )

Ok, I got to use a classic rock quote in a discussion comparing beta testing and religion. I may have just hit some sort of culture trifecta.

Also, kudos to Terran123rd for the Larry Niven reference.

[DEN_Ninja]

It is not so black in white. We all have reason to have faith, belief, and opinions on PGI. Some are into a kinda blind faith because they enjoy the IP that much. Some may actually think that PGI does a good job of making this game. Some reserve judgement. There are those who don't strongly believe in PGI So then it goes on and on a list of reason why they believe in PGI or not.

The only intolerable behavior I see is when people purposely insult or slander PGI. You can be angry without sounding like a child. You can say that you are disappointed in in some features instead of shouting that the dev's don't listen or are lazy, especially when the truth in some of these matters make this comments trashy and down right wrong.

In my opinion, I think PGI has done a great job reviving a IP and making something so that we can enjoy. I dislike how some things are implemented or haven't been but I will say that if I need to. Do I enjoy the game any less for these faults? Do I criticize PGI for all of this? No.

We, players, have high expectations because this is a fan driven game. They, PGI, have to put up with us and our demands, comments, and feedback. It is then followed up by IGP their publisher. It is PGI's game and the fact that some people take for granted that they listen to us is sickening. Do you think that many people get a say in any of their favorite triple A titles like Halo, GTA, or any other titles? Answer is no.

By the way, I've introduced this game to friends. We now play this together. We love it. I'm having fun. In the end that is what matters most. A fun game we can enjoy. I might not like ECM but so what. it might be patched or it might not.Ill still try to take you out with my LRM Cat.

[FrupertApricot]

Would help if MC/Paint things weren't downright extorting us.

25 bucks for a ******* mech when most AAA games nowadays can be had for as much by their 3rd month of release.

[RynCage]

SmilingElf, on 17 January 2013 - 10:22 PM, said:

The question is: Have the environment and attitude of these forums actually come down to almost purely a matter of faith? (Belief, trust, etc.)

Yes. But this is a forum about a game that has the word "Beta" mixed in. The forums were destined to end up this way.

Personally, i dislike the place the game is at, and the direction the devs are taking it.
I dislike the horrible PR of PGI, and the serious lack of professionalism at times.
There are more things that bother me, but it's not worth mentioning.
But regardless of how much i dispise the state of the game, and how things have turned out; I am aware that as long as the game is still being worked on, there is hope that it might fulfil its potential months/years down the road.
Im just mostly dissapointed the wait is going to end up being that long.

Edited by RynCage, 18 January 2013 - 12:54 AM.

[DEN_Ninja]

FrupertApricot, on 18 January 2013 - 12:45 AM, said:

Would help if MC/Paint things weren't downright extorting us.

25 bucks for a ******* mech when most AAA games nowadays can be had for as much by their 3rd month of release.

The only reason why MWO is barely where it is at is because of founder support. Want to know how much a real triple A titles cost to even make? Here
MC is just another way to support MWO. Last time someone counted up the amount of money that went into founder was barely 2 million. Star Citizen got over 2 million in a kickstarter, and even more from their founders program.. Planetary Annihilation got another 2.3 million raw from Kickstarter plus more from the paypal, plus what ever money the devs can supply from SMNC.

RynCage, on 18 January 2013 - 12:52 AM, said:

Yes. But this is a forum about a game that has the word "Beta" mixed in. The forums were destined to end up this way.

Personally, i dislike the place the game is at, and the direction the devs are taking it.
I dislike the horrible PR of PGI, and the serious lack of professionalism at times.
There are more things that bother me, but it's not worth mentioning.
But regardless of how much i dispise the state of the game, and how things have turned out; I am aware that as long as the game is still being worked on, there is hope that it might fulfil its potential months/years down the road.
Im just mostly dissapointed the wait is going to end up being that long.

Yep, beta forums do get rowdy,

1. I won't comment because i don't understand what you mean.
2. PGI is the dev, while they can promote the game and all that most of their team is made of people who are focused on making the game. I can't blame them for bad PR. In fact, shouldn't IGP be in charge of that?
3. Same as 1.
4. The future, where it goes or where it lies is always a mystery. We can always have hope though. A little bit of hope won't hurt.

Edited by Tichorius Davion, 18 January 2013 - 01:06 AM.

[Thirdstar]

Tichorius Davion, on 18 January 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:

MC is just another way to support MWO. Last time someone counted up the amount of money that went into founder was barely 2 million.

I'm not entirely happy with the 'game' we have thanks to that 2 million (I was under the impression it was 5), so what's my motivation to buy MC?

I love the IP, I really do but I'd rather not be irrational with my own money.

[DEN_Ninja]

Thirdstar, on 18 January 2013 - 01:20 AM, said:

I'm not entirely happy with the 'game' we have thanks to that 2 million (I was under the impression it was 5), so what's my motivation to buy MC?

I love the IP, I really do but I'd rather not be irrational with my own money.

I won't try to convince you. You are free to that opinion as much as I dislike your tone. We will see in the future whether that vote money mattered in making this more or less successful.

[Texas Merc]

People who enjoy the game are playing it and not posting on the forums(vocal minority).

3am or 3pm or any time inbetween I can hit Launch and find a game within 30 seconds.

[Thirdstar]

Tichorius Davion, on 18 January 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

I won't try to convince you. You are free to that opinion as much as I dislike your tone. We will see in the future whether that vote money mattered in making this more or less successful.

Not going to argue that funding effects the success or failure of a game, because it does, but so does quality.

The recent return of the Devs to the forums is heartening I must admit. It means, to me, that the game might be moving towards a direction that I'm happier with. But I don't think you can blame me if I remain cautious.

If things continue to improve I will most surely pour my monies into the game, happily even.

[DEN_Ninja]

Thirdstar, on 18 January 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

Not going to argue that funding effects the success or failure of a game, because it does, but so does quality.

The recent return of the Devs to the forums is heartening I must admit. It means, to me, that the game might be moving towards a direction that I'm happier with. But I don't think you can blame me if I remain cautious.

If things continue to improve I will most surely pour my monies into the game, happily even.

Actually I don't believe in putting money into a game makes it all that better. But it makes the publishers happier or it just makes it easier to get certain resources for the development of the game. Easing of pressure and what not. Also...I would rather have a game good and polished in the long run.

Wanna know the biggest example of this? Starcraft: Brood War. Sure Blizzard was and is effectively a dev and publishing company their SC team constantly patched and updated SC for ten full years. The game is flawless in game balance and still had a large steady base of players.

So we might not get all the features we want NOW but we might get them in time. Patience is virtue. A little faith, trust, or hope. If not I'll get my 60 dollars worth of fun with my friends and drop it.

[Lynette Steffeld]

I rarely have much to contribute for topics like this...

But with regards to MC/cash conversion rate...?

I still kinda wish that the Flame was a little cheaper ;w;

[Thorqemada]

Founders money was >5 millions minus some refunds.

The game is still very bare bones but most of the bones are good.
I had the feeling that the balance got slowly better and better until ECM hit - some of that balance was sort of an emergency workaround like SSRM to defend yourself against Lightspeed Mechs, but it worked ok, the A1 was toned down with tweaks to it and it was close to a good round balance.
I think they have very ambitious plans and that missed dates are to be expected - the MVP we have is good enough to keep me playing and seeing the enormous future potential.

I spend as much money i could affort to lose in a product unfinished yet and now follow live its development thrilled and entertained.

[Thirdstar]

Tichorius Davion, on 18 January 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:

Actually I don't believe in putting money into a game makes it all that better. But it makes the publishers happier or it just makes it easier to get certain resources for the development of the game. Easing of pressure and what not. Also...I would rather have a game good and polished in the long run.

Wanna know the biggest example of this? Starcraft: Brood War. Sure Blizzard was and is effectively a dev and publishing company their SC team constantly patched and updated SC for ten full years. The game is flawless in game balance and still had a large steady base of players.

So we might not get all the features we want NOW but we might get them in time. Patience is virtue. A little faith, trust, or hope. If not I'll get my 60 dollars worth of fun with my friends and drop it.

I personally feel that too much of a AAA game's budget goes into marketing shenanigans and gimmicks instead of into the actual game, so I partially agree on the effectiveness of money. I tend to be very biased in favor of more polished products even if they're lacking in other fields, less than ideal amount of bugginess makes my blood boil.

I will freely admit that patience does not come easily to me when it concerns Battletech/Mechwarrior. I have an emotional connection to the IP and some very fond memories, having grown up with it.

I agree with your final sentence and will continue to keep an eye on MWO.

[DEN_Ninja]

Thirdstar, on 18 January 2013 - 01:49 AM, said:

I personally feel that too much of a AAA game's budget goes into marketing shenanigans and gimmicks instead of into the actual game, so I partially agree on the effectiveness of money. I tend to be very biased in favor of more polished products even if they're lacking in other fields, less than ideal amount of bugginess makes my blood boil.

I will freely admit that patience does not come easily to me when it concerns Battletech/Mechwarrior. I have an emotional connection to the IP and some very fond memories, having grown up with it.

I agree with your final sentence and will continue to keep an eye on MWO.

Can we bro hug? We came to a non violent, conclusion. I like this.