103 replies to this topic

[CancR]

If you dont think you have to lead at all then you are in the wrong game.

[Fergrim]

Quote

Yet, some know-it-alls claim that it doesn't make a difference whether you have a 20 or a 400 ms latency.
Therefore, we don't need more server regions.
Just learn to play!

Yeah, that's what astounding me. I'm assuming a lot of high ping people who are having a hard time landing shots are in denial regarding the inability of improved net-code to make their 250ms more playable. Unfortunately for these players, nothing will make 250ms anything like the experience of a 100ms or less connection. Short of fixing your latency, you can expect horrible game play and frustratingly inconsistent hit registration.

If I was geographically distant and hanging in there through high pings, I'd be tempted to hold out hope that improved netcode would help me out; unfortunately the reality is that once state-rewind is introduced, your high latency will put you at an even further disadvantage.

Don't hold out for the net-code if you're a high pinger. However for us low, to mid pingers we can expect much better hit registration all around (at the expense of the higher ping folks, who will begin to feel as if they are being hit while behind cover, due to the state rewind)

The bad net-code will screw you some of the time, your high latency or the high latency of another (fast moving) player will screw you ALL of the time.

So if you're geographically far from the US and pinging high, i'd start making complaint threads every day because they don't seem to have considered alleviating your issues as of yet. (at least not according to any roadmaps I've read)

Edited by Fergrim, 18 January 2013 - 04:23 PM.

[Suko]

I live 3 hours south of their headquarters (assuming this is where they host their servers). My ping is usually <80, often closer to 50. I still have to aim in front of a Raven by at least 1/2 a body length to register laser hits.

The netcode needs improvement.

[Fergrim]

Quote

The netcode needs improvement.

A solid point that not a single person here has ever contested.

However, the net-code will bork up hit registration intermittently IF both players have a similar/low latency.

HOWEVER if you have to aim that far ahead of a raven CONSISTENTLY then you've proven to this interwebs troubleshooter that the issue is latency (likely that of the raven), not net code.

Although, as I mentioned previously, improving the net code would allow you to register more hits, but would result in a million laggy ravens complaining on the forum about getting hit "from nowhere, behind walls" all the time.

Which I am looking forward to, I have no sympathy for the laggers.

Edited by Fergrim, 18 January 2013 - 04:36 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

Fergrim, on 18 January 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

Lag shielded mechs are not shielded by the netcode, they are shielded by the fact that their pilot is in freaking Norway!

Fergrim, on 18 January 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

It's not lag shielded ravens you hate, it's Norwegian ones.

Edited by Solis Obscuri, 18 January 2013 - 05:05 PM.

[Fergrim]

Hahahaha!

OKAY you got me!

I hereby publicly apologize to the norwegians, who only lag modestly, compared to the DIRTY AUSSIES!

I realize I was a bit too hard on them... and thankfully for you, the cuteness of your home made memes are hiding your lack of substantive point of view...yet also shielding you from my

INTERWEBS WRATH.

Edited by Fergrim, 18 January 2013 - 05:10 PM.

[Zero Neutral]

Thanks for this hilarious post OP. Your claims are contradicted by devs who, yanno, actually know what's going on. Thanks again OP, very funny post. The best part is where you assert the obvious that any net code changes will not help latency. Are you even aware of the progressive changes that the devs plan to make for the netcode?

[Fergrim]

Yes. There are like 500 words in the roadmap referring to optimization and state-rewind. I can link it for you, if you need it.

Are you even aware of the limitations of net-code in making your 300ms ping playable? Are you trying to argue that terrible latency can be alleviated by improved netcode? That 60 or 250 should run the same? Improved net-code is improved net-code, it's not magic.

It can't do it. Latency and net-code are seperate problems. The net-code processes information, received at a delayed rate from you, and then sends you back information. The BEST done net-code can't send or receive information any faster than you can bounce it back to them. So if you're sitting damn far away, or on a slow connection, or both... The net-code being better will just mean that the game you can't play with your crappy ping, is even more fun for those of us who can.

And my posts are not contradicted by the devs, you are confused. I've stated the net-code needs fixing for everything to be working correctly, but once that problem is fixed, your 300ms ping will still be 300ms, and will still result in you having a sub-par gaming experience.

I think you're confused as to what each does and I could direct you to a solid networking manual that would explain it better than I.

However, I don't want you to think that when they roll out netcode changes, your 350ms ping will magically become 70ms and really playable (yes, sit still while I straw man you). I mean, I hope so, for your sake... but since it's not possible at all...

lol oh man.

Edited by Fergrim, 18 January 2013 - 05:20 PM.

[Zero Neutral]

The intent of the netcode fix is to improve hit registration. This will make a player's lag irrelevant to players who are not lagging. Laggers will get hit by your weapons due to state rewind.

Players who have a high ping but low packet loss will also benefit from state rewind...

[Zero Neutral]

But, I have currently less than 50ms ping.

[Fergrim]

Thank you, Zero.

Yes, they will benefit, but high ping is high ping. Whether you consider it to be bearable is up to your personal opinion. However, improved performance is...improved performance, eh?

All I'm saying is, in my opinion, 300ms in unplayable in any action game, and no amount of net-code, geniously written or not, will fix the basic sorry state of having a high ping.

And not once in the roadmap do the devs mention latency or its improvement. Just hit registration and collision detection. As long as we're clear on the different roles latency and netcode play in hit registration.. I think our younger mechwarriors might benefit from our illumination of the distinction.

(and Zero, you're my favourite in this thread so far)

Edited by Fergrim, 18 January 2013 - 05:26 PM.

[Zero Neutral]

The netcode fix is intended to improve performance across the board. A game like this is playable at 300ms ping, but not with the current code. I used to play Unreal Tournament with 250ms ping and while I still had to lead targets, I could actually hit them because the net code knew about one target. In MWO it seems like the client target location, target's true location, and the location the server identifies are all entirely different which can cause absurd misses on even very slow targets.

[Fergrim]

That and they don't always indicate minimum range clearly.

Yes, Zero, I totally agree with you and you speak fact, regarding what (not just this one, but any) net code fix is intended to do.

So we agree, except that I'm considering 250ms in comparison to 50ms... and net-code is like a good pain killer, it definitely takes the sting out of the lag, but the lag itself is a sorry condition. And your high ping most definitely made it much harder to hit you than

I wasn't trying to say the net-code shouldn't be fixed, I was trying to say the following:

1) Latency matters as much as net code
2) A lot of people are working within 300+ ms
3) high latency is bad/game disrupting regardless of how good the net code is

I didn't think it'd be that controversial a message, it's as old as online gaming itself.

Edited by Fergrim, 18 January 2013 - 05:31 PM.

[Zero Neutral]

The netcode improvements are such a huge priority because without that rung in the ladder, the devs cannot reach other issues such as weapon balance.

Latency will always suck. Even human brain latency can be a ***** for some people. However, the lag that some one has is not what causes non registered hits atm. We are shooting at ghosts.

[MWHawke]

Fergrim, on 18 January 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

You can't program away a quarter of a second. You can try to correct for it, but you can't expect to be able to play with any smoothness, ever at over 200 milliseconds.

[/font][/color]

I'm going to guess you've never really played Counter Strike Source. All you hear is complaints about the broken hit registration in that game. So commonly that the phrase has been reduced to "reg" and generally it's bad or okay.

MWO has just as good if not better hit registration than CSS.

I'm going to guess you've never played above 200 ms. You CAN play above 200ms and it is pretty smooth. Past about 300 ms is when the warping occurs. I'm in Malaysia and even playing at 286ms, the game is still smooth. And not ALL lagging players use Ravens exclusively. I mastered Catapults and Cataphracts as well as all Founders Mechs before even buying a Raven.

Yes, I do play the Raven but only if my team needs a fast Mech. The rest of the time, I play my Phract and Pult.

After the patch, my ping leapt to minimum 286 (which is still smooth), max, unlimited and I have been using my Phract almost exclusively. I find playing the Raven ridiculous coz it warps so bad that I can't even hit anything any time there is an increase in ping time.

[Fergrim]

Zero, Yes, you speak truth again. Fixing the netcode is the troubleshooter/smart programmer best first way to go about improving hit registration across the board :]

Man, the two of us together make the coolest and nicest dude in the room

And MWHawke, I'm sorry for my tone regarding people who play with higher latency. I actually have played at the 200+ms mark quite a bit, as often someone is destroying my internet connection just to make me mad..

And even the slightest bit of warping and rubber banding make me rage quit pretty quickly.

But basically it sounds to me as if you've adjusted and figured out ways to still have a good time. A more geographically local server (once the game is already otherwise finished) would probably be amazing for you.

For me, I generally ping at around 60, I never have any issue hitting a mech that isn't lagging. Buttttt in the meantime, hopefully the netcode fix will give us a smoother, better playing game to boot.

Hopefully, in my opinion, their net-code fix will finally put laggers at a disadvantage rather than a warping advantage.

Edited by Fergrim, 18 January 2013 - 05:37 PM.

[Zero Neutral]

I mean to say that without the netcode improvements, then creating new servers isn't doable because people will still be missing even with low pings... it is a really major problem.

[Fergrim]

Oh yeah! I can totally see how you could get the impression that that's where I'm going with it.

No, troubleshooting wise, project management wise and common sense wise the net-code should come first.

but we're blinded by it's upcoming immensity and soon, after it comes, we'll all be sassy about latency ;] At that point, our poor friends currently forced to play at 200+ms even on fast connections... hopefully will be plentiful enough to open a second server ;]

(PSS: also this topic IS difficult to discuss because... I know it's cliche, but having run my CSS server for a long time.. the average player has a hard time telling the difference between them missing... a lot... and the server needing a restart to clear the cache and improve the hit registration)

Edited by Fergrim, 18 January 2013 - 05:43 PM.

[Zero Neutral]

Some people will not cease to complain. Netcode is not going to change that.

[MagicHamsta]

zmeul, on 18 January 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

and yet we have other new stuff in each patch, except netcode
just look at the patch notes since OBT - a lot of stuff added, very few of the issues fixed


as Soda Popinsky said, their "roll back the tape" to the moment of the shot - it's bogus! because the "shielded" mech will still have the lead compared to the moment of the shot; he explained it better

unless they artificially add same amount of lag to everyone in the match as the highest ping player, I do not see how they can "predict" movement
how this works: example, if the highest ping player is @200ms, everyone in the match will have their actions delayed to 200ms
it is similar in concept with what CCP did for EVE with "time dilation"

You has no idea how software/programming in general works, do you?
('-')