777 replies to this topic

[Hauser]

Great post Void Agel. Though having read Rejarial Galatan profile and a random selection of his recent posts I don't think any discussion will change his mind.

[Vanguard319]

Any good infantryman will tell you that being in the open is death. (The ones who ignore that maxim are probably dead already.) Even tank crews will use terrain and available cover.

As for myself, even though I am generally a scout, I usually don't move too far ahead of the main group. When scouting, I only move as far ahead as where the lead elements of my team are near the edge of my ECM range. (about 180~220m) This is not cowardice on my part, because if things go sour, my team is close enough behind me that they can provide some cover as I pull back. (What militaries would call Overwatch.) When I do scout long range, it's never alone. (again you are more likely to survive an ambush with a wingman than without.)

If you are charging forward, and getting stomped, you are not being a useful contribution to your team. There is a significant difference between moving through potentially hostile terrain with caution, and being a coward.

[BL00D RAVEN]

Void Angel, on 19 January 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

Any build with flamers and machineguns, for example, is bad. Period. No rational argument can be made, because those weapons are empirically far behind in damage/effects per ton, and per time.

i hate you, you are saying my 3 favorite mechs are bad(spider 5d, spider 5k, and raven 4x)
sure those MGs may seem pointless, but they help aim and give good sound effects

the flamer is not bad, it is just situational
on caustic it will kill the fools who overheat, at night city it will blind enemies, and at all times it draws attention to protect your group

[Void Angel]

el oh el.

[Void Angel]

Vanguard319, on 23 January 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

Any good infantryman will tell you that being in the open is death. (The ones who ignore that maxim are probably dead already.) Even tank crews will use terrain and available cover.

As for myself, even though I am generally a scout, I usually don't move too far ahead of the main group. When scouting, I only move as far ahead as where the lead elements of my team are near the edge of my ECM range. (about 180~220m) This is not cowardice on my part, because if things go sour, my team is close enough behind me that they can provide some cover as I pull back. (What militaries would call Overwatch.) When I do scout long range, it's never alone. (again you are more likely to survive an ambush with a wingman than without.)

If you are charging forward, and getting stomped, you are not being a useful contribution to your team. There is a significant difference between moving through potentially hostile terrain with caution, and being a coward.

Well, the problem is that you're confusing overwatch with recon. As a light 'mech, your primary role is that of a recon unit. No other unit can move as fast as you can - and while you certainly can swap down to a 54kph speed to fit in more weapons (if you'll permit me a clear-case example) you won't be properly utilizing your chassis with that build. ECM is great for convoy escort duty if you have extras, but your team can stay out of sight using terrain if you're the only ECM - and any non-ECM scout will be instantly detected as soon as he pops into line of sight with the enemy. Remember, the SR-71 was the first stealth aircraft developed by the US - a pure recon bird which was only abandoned because satellites could do the job with greater endurance and no risk of human life.

Simply put, caution becomes cowardice when it overrides the needs of the mission. If you'll recall, nowhere do I advocate running at the enemy in a drooling display of moronic recklessness. But too many times (particularly at Coward's Ridge in Frozen City) I see a movement to contact degenerate into a piecemeal sniping match until one side or another gets their act together and moves in force - and that side usually wins. What I'm trying to do here is teach people how to be on that side.

[Scarlett Avignon]

I do think that setting a trap and waiting patiently is a valid tactic, but the general gist of the OP is correct. Don't be afraid to take a risk. Just be sure to measure the risks and act when you are sure you have a good chance of coming out on top!

[Spawn1992]

First of all, Atlas is not "The Ultimate Missile Boat", Awesome is. I got 3 Awesome, 1 pure missile boat (I sacrificed everything that could protect me, just to try it and it works great as a full support mech), 1 pure laser boat and the best one in my opinion (because of its organized hardpoints), the AWS-8T. This one is my main mech, because I can give some support with LRMs, but it works really nice when you face-to-face most mechs, even Atlas. Only trouble about Awesome is the cockpit, and everyone knows it but you just need to "dance" with your mech to make your enemy miss it.
About the "cowardice" thing, I don't think it's anything about "fear". It's a game, I don't believe anyone would be so afraid about getting killed in a game.

[Elder Thorn]

as an Atlas and Stalker pilot i did read the title "COWARDICE IS NOT A TACTIC" and then

Void Angel, on 18 January 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

This is for all the Atlas missile boats who

and i allready liked the post, thank you OP

[Pandamcpanda]

Honestly, i gave up trying to argue with void, hes on his high horse and wont come off it. After seeing his WoW av quote about riding thru the bridge in vanilla av i couldn't stop laughing. That sure won games back then, best of luck to you in MWO void.

[Void Angel]

Panda, you gave up arguing with me when I handed you your head based on empirical data. Please don't troll.

[Void Angel]

Franklen Avignon, on 23 January 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

I do think that setting a trap and waiting patiently is a valid tactic, but the general gist of the OP is correct. Don't be afraid to take a risk. Just be sure to measure the risks and act when you are sure you have a good chance of coming out on top!

Absolutely! Ambushes can be used to great effect, but you have to coordinate with your team and keep good recon up. Simply moving to the rim of the caldera or Coward's Ridge and just... dithering is a Bad Idea.

Spawn1992, on 23 January 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

About the "cowardice" thing, I don't think it's anything about "fear". It's a game, I don't believe anyone would be so afraid about getting killed in a game.

There are other kinds of fear than mortal terror. You can say "worry" if you like, but it amounts to the same thing - the title is deliberately provocative in order to shock people into thinking about it (this has backfired in two notable cases so far.) Don't get too hung up on the definition of fear. My basic premise is that if you're hesitant, you'll tend to get rolled over.

[Pandamcpanda]

Sorry void, all you did was flap about straw man arguments, and make claims that fit your needs after i directly quoted you. Your wow argument was the icing on the stupid cake, running into 35 people aoe'ing in av led to a 0% win rate. Pro gaming tip right there. I'm done arguing with you, play the game as you see fit, everyone else will do the same.

[Hauser]

@Panda: At best you seem to be misunderstanding what Void Angel is saying.

[GalaxyBluestar]

wow great thread...

i should stand out in the open to help my team pot shot and charge and give the enemy ample time to focus fire me to death. cover is there for a reason, that you don't die like an *** waving love spuds in the enemies face.

accoriding to the op, lobbying lrms from afar is cowardice although many shriek nerf lrms for they cause a lot of damage and death. a real detriment to the team. catching people unawears with a sniper round cause they never saw you behind that ridge is cowardice and pinning people to areas is soooooo non tactical. a scout who takes shelter knowing full well that if he pokes his head round the corner or looks over the ridge 3-5 mechs will focus fire him to oblivion, sure you don't camp but if you're encouraging people to commit suicide so that you or another rambo can enjoy the meatshield/distraction benifit and get a brawl happening then don't expect to make friends anytime soon.

[Hauser]

GalaxyBluestar, on 23 January 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

wow great thread...

i should stand out in the open to help my team pot shot and charge and give the enemy ample time to focus fire me to death. cover is there for a reason, that you don't die like an *** waving love spuds in the enemies face.

Read the last paragraph of the OP. It summarizes the argument. It is surprisingly nuanced for a post on the internet. I bolded the most import part for your convenience.

At the end of the day, you should be cautious up to a point - recklessness is the courage of a fool, after all. But you have to keep in mind that, just as you don't go to a knife fight without expecting to be cut, you can't go to a 'mech fight and not expect to be blasted apart and melted down into commemorative paperweights from time to time. The most important thing you can do is cooperate with your team, no matter what your build - maneuver for a flank shot with your sniper/missile build; being a "light killer" doesn't mean you can't scout so long as you stay close by the main body. If you can't focus fire from your position, you need to move, and if the big 'mech(s) are engaging, go in with them. Don't be stupid, but don't let fear (or tactical tunnel-vision) restrain you from helping the team. As one of the Fracking Atlas pilots, I do not mind dying a horrible death as long as the team backs me up - because teamwork, not fear, is the true key to survival.

You may also want to read the "Follow the Fracking Atlas" thread for more background information.

GalaxyBluestar, on 23 January 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

1. accoriding to the op, lobbying lrms from afar is cowardice although many shriek nerf lrms for they cause a lot of damage and death. a real detriment to the team.

2. catching people unawears with a sniper round cause they never saw you behind that ridge is cowardice and pinning people to areas is soooooo non tactical.

3. a scout who takes shelter knowing full well that if he pokes his head round the corner or looks over the ridge 3-5 mechs will focus fire him to oblivion, sure you don't camp but if you're encouraging people to commit suicide so that you or another rambo can enjoy the meatshield/distraction benifit and get a brawl happening then don't expect to make friends anytime soon.

Now I'd like to address this separately. So I split them up by numbers.

1. The problem with those LRM Atlases is that they do not advance aggressively enough. They can not lay down the focus fire that is required to win a match. Granted, unlike Awesomes, Atlases simply don't have the speed for that. Hence them not being the best LRM platforms. Though I wouldn't call the setup useless, the way the mech is commonly played is.

2. The same argument holds for sniping. If you don't help with the focus fire you're not helping much at all.

3. As for scouts, no they should not peak their head over a ridge. They should however discover where the enemy is. Something you can do in other ways then walking straight into the front line.

Edited by Hauser, 23 January 2013 - 04:55 PM.

[Void Angel]

Pandamcpanda, on 23 January 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

Sorry void, all you did was flap about straw man arguments, and make claims that fit your needs after i directly quoted you. Your wow argument was the icing on the stupid cake, running into 35 people aoe'ing in av led to a 0% win rate. Pro gaming tip right there. I'm done arguing with you, play the game as you see fit, everyone else will do the same.

No, Panda, I dismissed your straw man arguments because you used quotations out of context, like a movie gangster cutting a ransom notes out of the newspaper. Your lack of knowledge about WoW PvP is telling, however. I peg you as a mage, probably Alliance. Just run and hide - keep your promise and never troll my thread again.

Edited by Void Angel, 23 January 2013 - 08:38 PM.

[Pandamcpanda]

Been horde since beta of vanilla wow, high warlord, gladiator and hero of the horde on multiple toons. Try again. Its alright, you play mwo anyway you want, I'm done arguing with you.

[skoot]

Cowardly hiding behind the main force isn't a result of fear, it's just a good way for me to max out my kills/cash/XP.

<2c/>

[WVAnonymous]

Void Angel, on 18 January 2013 - 11:06 PM, said:

3. A fire support Atlas (the only 'mech I mentioned in this point,) meaning an LRM boat, is a stupid build. Anything you can do in that role with an Atlas, the Stalker (and possibly the Awesome) does better. There's nothing inherently wrong with putting in some LRMS for long-range engagements - but you can't afford to make them your primary armament (seriously! The guy had TWO MEDIUM LASERS on an Assault chassis.) An Atlas shines when he's soaking up firepower at medium to short range. It does this not only by being amazingly tough, but by being a rallying point for other 'mechs. I've seen fire support Atlas builds with less firepower than an equivalent catapult. It's just a bad build.

I can testify. I saw the 4 LRM15 2 ML Atlas killed personally. And more recently than this original post, so more than one sub-optimizer or one very persistent one. He didn't even have TAG.

[Void Angel]

Pandamcpanda, on 23 January 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

Been horde since beta of vanilla wow, high warlord, gladiator and hero of the horde on multiple toons. Try again. Its alright, you play mwo anyway you want, I'm done arguing with you.

And yet you A) don't understand vanilla AV, B) insist on ignoring the fact that your "argument" was invalid and contained clear empirical errors, and C) keep on talking. Please keep your promise and go away. (PS: High Warlord was a playing contest; Arena titles don't apply to battlegrounds; and Hero of the Horde applies only to rated battlegrounds, which places it long after Vanilla WoW.)

Edited by Void Angel, 23 January 2013 - 08:39 PM.