777 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

I... may or may not have told scouts to get out there and do their job or I would shoot them myself.

[YueFei]

Pierce Rossignol, on 04 March 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

I have an Atlas build with 2 LRM20's and an AC/20, with 2 MPL's CT so I can keep fighting when zombiefied. When I run it I throw heavy long-range ordnance on my way to the fight -- it's a slow build, made slower by careful use of avenues of approach and key terrain -- and by the time I get there I can smash the wounded mechs with the AC/20.

When I'm firing missiles in the early part of a round, you can bet your *** I'm using cover. I get *****ed out by pugs and newbs on chat when I do this and I end up doing what they're doing because even a bad plan, when followed, is better than no plan.

It does me no good to get to the fight when I'm cored or have weapons disabled from damage. If the rest of the team were smart, they'd stick with me so that THEY would get to the fight in one piece, too. There are avenues of approach that provide defilade on every map. It's just that most players aren't trained to recognize them, so they get ****ed off and whiny, thinking you're chickening out, when you do. (This is why I love playing in a merc corps for former / current military IRL.)

The Atlas's job is to absorb punishment, not to die needlessly. There's a huge difference.

Sometimes when I'm following an Atlas who clearly knows what he's doing, I tell the rest of the team to play defensively, give ground, and retreat if necessary to buy time for the Atlas to get into position. I'll even let my team know when the Atlas is about to swing around and hammer the other team, so they'll know when to stop hiding and hit the enemy at the same time.

Sometimes it works, but sometimes it also fails horribly. I remember one match following an Atlas pilot who managed to sneak up right behind the enemy team. It should've been a stomp in our favor. But none of our guys would crest the ridge as our Atlas (and me in my HBK) engaged. We ended up getting splattered 8 vs 2 while the other 6 guys on our team were hiding. We managed to take out 1 mech before being swarmed and killed. The rest of the match was predictable after that, the enemy killed the rest of our team without losing any other mechs.

Edited by YueFei, 10 March 2013 - 09:04 PM.

[liku]

Every time you see one of yours engaged alone, go help him.
Taking damage alone is a good way to win a fight damaged... halving damage will make you kill faster and often less damaged, it's better for the team, and if you dont manage to kill, the opponent will be running away.

Prior to engaging, it's always better to have one fast scout running in the middle of them (almost like a kamikaze) drawing their attention and upping the probability of firendly fire, 1 or 2 seconds before your main team push and engage them, thy will be confuse..and the 2-3 seconds they take to focus back will often mean your team will down one of them before taking fire

[Void Angel]

YueFei, on 10 March 2013 - 09:02 PM, said:

Sometimes when I'm following an Atlas who clearly knows what he's doing, I tell the rest of the team to play defensively, give ground, and retreat if necessary to buy time for the Atlas to get into position. I'll even let my team know when the Atlas is about to swing around and hammer the other team, so they'll know when to stop hiding and hit the enemy at the same time.

Sometimes it works, but sometimes it also fails horribly. I remember one match following an Atlas pilot who managed to sneak up right behind the enemy team. It should've been a stomp in our favor. But none of our guys would crest the ridge as our Atlas (and me in my HBK) engaged. We ended up getting splattered 8 vs 2 while the other 6 guys on our team were hiding. We managed to take out 1 mech before being swarmed and killed. The rest of the match was predictable after that, the enemy killed the rest of our team without losing any other mechs.

Uh, that Atlas might actually have been me. I had a game exactly like that once.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Orionche, on 16 February 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

And what if those features don't turn out to be what you expected and you're forced to change your tactics? Are you gonna come rage at the devs on the forums or you gonna man up, refit the mech and go kill something?

Stop going with the rest of the lemmings, leave the box your teachers/bosses/parents told you to be in, get in a brawler, FORCE YOURSELF to get into someones face. You will die horribly the first time. You will die stupidly the second time. You will die the third time, but the other guy is gonna go home bleeding. On the forth battle you will have a "GF". On the fifth that Atlas is gonna respect your light mech more. On the sixth you're gonna have top damage on the team in that "****** no ECM underpowered" mech that no one drives.

Good players push themselves, are constantly changing and aren't afraid to shoot someone bigger than themselves and show them the finger whilst doing it. Its okay to be a newbie, its just ******* horrid to be that guy with over a 1000 matches playing his sniping build and still suck at it.

Its a game. You lose absolutely NOTHING by trying something new. Open your mind, stop being afraid and leave your comfort zone. Its nothing but ******** pixels.

<rolls his eyes> Those who know when to fall back, may lose the fight, but, ultimately live to win the war. While, yes, this IS a game, and no harm is done by making my own scrap metal monument to my mech WITH my mech, the tactics of knowing when you are out gunned and to back the heck down and shut down are just as valid if not MORE valid than running to die when the fight is lost anyway. See what I mean? I cannot begin to tell you the times I have found a quiet corner of the map to power off when I realize I am but 1 Atlas against 4-5 other mech's. This happens because of my style of play, and how I view my job as an ASSAULT pilot, and the twitch shooters mentality that pervades most fights from the console kids that play, of: run into middle, fight, die. Will I brawl you to death in my Atlas? If I have to, because you are in my way, but, more often than not, if I can take the win by being smarter than a fight, I will not.

[Orionche]

Rejarial Galatan, on 15 March 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

<rolls his eyes> Those who know when to fall back, may lose the fight, but, ultimately live to win the war.

What war? Its one battle every 5-8 minutes.

Rejarial Galatan, on 15 March 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

While, yes, this IS a game, and no harm is done by making my own scrap metal monument to my mech WITH my mech, the tactics of knowing when you are out gunned and to back the heck down and shut down are just as valid if not MORE valid than running to die when the fight is lost anyway. See what I mean? I cannot begin to tell you the times I have found a quiet corner of the map to power off when I realize I am but 1 Atlas against 4-5 other mech's.

Good to know you're such a credit to the team on the other side of the map. Since you don't pay repair bills on mechs any more, there's really no reason not to engage in (un)fair fights. If you're worried about ammo costs, give PGI some money for some premium time?

Rejarial Galatan, on 15 March 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

This happens because of my style of play, and how I view my job as an ASSAULT pilot, and the twitch shooters mentality that pervades most fights from the console kids that play, of: run into middle, fight, die. Will I brawl you to death in my Atlas? If I have to, because you are in my way, but, more often than not, if I can take the win by being smarter than a fight, I will not.

It ain't a job, its a computer game. Timidity in today's games is not the answer, intelligent aggression and maneuver warfare is. I've tried both. Your way has NEVER payed off for me, my clan mates or anyone else I've seen.

[1453 R]

Rejjy, stop acting like you know what you're talking about, please. Or like you know what anyone else in this thread is talking about.

Yes, in the extremely specific instance of you being alone against multiple enemy 'Mechs, in a Conquest match, when you're already so ahead on cap the enemy can never catch up...it is possibly a valid tactic to shut down and hide. Come up with another instance - any other instance - in which that sort of keepaway is a valid tactic and I will eat my keyboard. You're using a single, rare and unusual tactical situation to justify an entire playstyle of rank friggin' cowardice. Void may be nice enough not to say it anymore, but that is what it is. A pilot more concerned with saving his own skin than contributing to his team's victory will accomplish neither goal, as the enemy will simply destroy his team while he is too busy Demonstrating His Tactical Brilliance by shutting down in a corner and hiding instead of contributing to his enemy's downfall, then hunt him down and destroy him with overwhelming numbers.

Here's a clue - if your playstyle is sufficiently 'cautious' that your own teammates are calling out your location in general chat to try and get the game done with so they can move on? You're doing it wrong and need to seriously, seriously, SERIOUSLY reconsider your so-called playstyle.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Orionche, on 16 March 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:

What war? Its one battle every 5-8 minutes.

well first off, if they EVER get this game back on track, and I mean REALLY on track, back into the spirit of the Battle Tech Universe, the war I speak of is this: Between IS houses for territory in the Inner Sphere, Between the Clans themselves for honor and territory, between the Clans and IS for, well, EARTH.

Orionche, on 16 March 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:

Good to know you're such a credit to the team on the other side of the map. Since you don't pay repair bills on mechs any more, there's really no reason not to engage in (un)fair fights. If you're worried about ammo costs, give PGI some money for some premium time?

I fight with one simple premise: Repair bills will return. Until Paul or Garth or Bryan state they are gone for good <would be a HUGE bad thing if they never return>, I will fight with the belief that they are intended to return, and will not develop bad habits that will, in the end upon their return end up costing me money.

Orionche, on 16 March 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:

It ain't a job, its a computer game. Timidity in today's games is not the answer, intelligent aggression and maneuver warfare is. I've tried both. Your way has NEVER payed off for me, my clan mates or anyone else I've seen.

You call it timidity--- by the way, why DID they remove Cowardice and replace it with TImidity anyway?--- all you want, I call it smart to know when I cannot possibly win the match, and my above premise refuses me the option to die with a rather pointless death--so--yeah. Actually, my way HAS paid off a time or two. Ever have a battle when, you swear they are all dead, but yet some how the base is lost and you lose? That is my style. If I can take a win w/out a fight, you bet I will. Smarter warfare, not harder warfare. deal with that.
-----

1453 R, on 16 March 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

Rejjy, stop acting like you know what you're talking about, please. Or like you know what anyone else in this thread is talking about.

I do actually know a thing or two about tactics, such as when it is wise to press my foes or when to quit the field for example. I also, play to my mech title: ASSAULT. no where in my title does it say: BRAWLER.

1453 R, on 16 March 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

Yes, in the extremely specific instance of you being alone against multiple enemy 'Mechs, in a Conquest match, when you're already so ahead on cap the enemy can never catch up...it is possibly a valid tactic to shut down and hide. Come up with another instance - any other instance - in which that sort of keepaway is a valid tactic and I will eat my keyboard. You're using a single, rare and unusual tactical situation to justify an entire playstyle of rank friggin' cowardice. Void may be nice enough not to say it anymore, but that is what it is. A pilot more concerned with saving his own skin than contributing to his team's victory will accomplish neither goal, as the enemy will simply destroy his team while he is too busy Demonstrating His Tactical Brilliance by shutting down in a corner and hiding instead of contributing to his enemy's downfall, then hunt him down and destroy him with overwhelming numbers.

Look at it like this: Community warfare is NOW in place, and you have earned the awesome ability to RUN a faction house like say Davion--FOR EXAMPLE that is-- You as the player in charge, get to decide what players in your faction get what funding, would you rather pay a pilot who gets wins at every encounter, but is also burning mechs, ammo, armor and other vital war goods like beer at a ball game OR a pilot who gets wins but, does so with nearly no cost to the House in the above resources? IF it were me, I would fund that 2nd pilot every single time over the other, because I refuse to pay for Pyrrhic victories.

1453 R, on 16 March 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

Here's a clue - if your playstyle is sufficiently 'cautious' that your own teammates are calling out your location in general chat to try and get the game done with so they can move on? You're doing it wrong and need to seriously, seriously, SERIOUSLY reconsider your so-called playstyle.

You play how you want, I will play mine. I am not here to please you, nor you me. Call out my location all you want, but that shows no integrity on your part.

edit: Just a side note 1453: calling out a team mates location is exactly the behavior that one expects from someone who plays the Call of Duty games and think's that how THIS game should be played, when, this game is or rather could be soo much more than that. They are drawing from 3 decades of material, but, are using like 1 page with like 2 paragraphs on it for this game....

Edited by Rejarial Galatan, 16 March 2013 - 08:49 PM.

[Void Angel]

Rejarial Galatan, on 16 March 2013 - 08:46 PM, said:

well first off, if they EVER get this game back on track, and I mean REALLY on track, back into the spirit of the Battle Tech Universe, the war I speak of is this: Between IS houses for territory in the Inner Sphere, Between the Clans themselves for honor and territory, between the Clans and IS for, well, EARTH.

The rulebook waving thread is over here.

Rejarial Galatan, on 16 March 2013 - 08:46 PM, said:

I fight with one simple premise: Repair bills will return. Until Paul or Garth or Bryan state they are gone for good <would be a HUGE bad thing if they never return>, I will fight with the belief that they are intended to return, and will not develop bad habits that will, in the end upon their return end up costing me money.

Heh. Heheh.

Spoiler

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

They're never bringing it back. They said so in a recent dev post. Lemme go find it for you... here you go! You go read that while I pour myself a nice cold glass of your sweet, sweet tears. Hear that? That's the sound of a poorly constructed tactical philosophy collapsing.

Not that it was ever valid. Once you are dropped into a match, you are locked into the tactical environment, so all that stuff about winning without fighting you like to misquote from Sun Tzu is irrelevant - that ship sailed before we got here. Given that we are in a match, it behooves us to win. Standing around dithering because we're all too uncertain to take decisive action is not going to reliably lead to victory, so we need to try something else. If we're going to try something else, WE need to all do the same thing, and do it decisively. If we don't act decisively, we'll lose most matches - and that's a bad thing. It really is that simple.

Spinning fairy tale scenarios about community warfare mechanics that haven't even been announced yet doesn't change that; maundering on about how you're smart to play as though an abandoned mechanic was still in the game doesn't change that. Picking apart imaginary arguments where people say "you have to always brawl," or "everyone has to rush them in a group every time" certainly doesn't change that, and is called lying, as I've pointed out before.

So, to close, you don't know anything about tactics. Take it from an actual professional. You're claiming mechanics that don't exist as justification for abandoning your team because you don't want to get in the "bad habit" of trying to win when it's risky for you. You're just back again, trolling the thread and saying the same crap we've debunked over and over and over.

Edited by Void Angel, 16 March 2013 - 10:59 PM.

[Orionche]

+1 Void Angel

Rejarial Galatan, on 16 March 2013 - 08:46 PM, said:

I fight with one simple premise: Repair bills will return. Until Paul or Garth or Bryan state they are gone for good <would be a HUGE bad thing if they never return>, I will fight with the belief that they are intended to return, and will not develop bad habits that will, in the end upon their return end up costing me money.

If you care about this game at all, if you care about the people who code all day long so you can shoot internet lasers, if you cared about BT, if you were actually GOOD at this game, I assure you you would not spend a single second thinking about making money is this game. If you can't with premium (which I'm assuming you have bought) earn enough to actually make a profit in MWO, you seriously need to reevaluate your play style.

Rejarial Galatan, on 16 March 2013 - 08:46 PM, said:

You call it timidity--- by the way, why DID they remove Cowardice and replace it with TImidity anyway?---

Its called political correctness/being nice because people get ********* when someone calls them out for being a coward in an internet (PvP no less!!!) game where you have absolutely nothing to lose.

Rejarial Galatan, on 16 March 2013 - 08:46 PM, said:

all you want, I call it smart to know when I cannot possibly win the match, and my above premise refuses me the option to die with a rather pointless death--so--yeah.

Its a PvP game. Is your KDR so damn important to you? Seriously? Why are you still playing this game if your only objective is to ruin other people's fun/time with your lack of initiative?

Rejarial Galatan, on 16 March 2013 - 08:46 PM, said:

Actually, my way HAS paid off a time or two.

Awesome statistic. Out of how many matches? Yeah.

[Void Angel]

Actually, as far as the name change, the thread got ninja modded to the "jettisoned communications" folder, even though it was a constructive thread on tactics - I talked with a mod about it, and while they didn't know why the thread was moved, they suggested that I change the terminology so that people wouldn't throw tantrums in the thread without actually reading it - simply because the word "cowardice" was used.

I'd chosen the more evocative term deliberately in order to grab people's attention and get them to read the post. In only two notable cases did it only half work, but the name change seemed worth a try in order to prevent further outbursts - and a small price to pay for getting the thread back where it belonged.

Edited by Void Angel, 17 March 2013 - 11:54 AM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Void: 2 things: 1. In that linked post, I did not see a mention of RR. My tactic still stands, as I play for my enjoymen 2. I understand the name change now, small price indeed, but, it is where it must be.

Orion: to be blunt, my KDR is about as valuable as a spent shell casing. However, a pointless death vs a death that means something to me is more important. No matter what you say or think, I will never die a pointless death, even if the point of my death eludes others, it matters not to me.

[Void Angel]

...

Quote

Repair and Ream:

blinkin - Will repair and rearm ever come back? if not please explain the reasoning behind removing it.
A: No plans to bring back RNR. RNR was removed to create a balanced economy. In the end it created more problems than solved, and was essentially a tax. The system was prone to abuse by farmers and active players. The decision was made to protect the integrity of the game at the cost of removing a feature most people did not use (based on telemetry).

[Void Angel]

Rejarial Galatan, on 17 March 2013 - 07:45 PM, said:

Void: 2 things: 1. In that linked post, I did not see a mention of RR. My tactic still stands, as I play for my enjoymen 2. I understand the name change now, small price indeed, but, it is where it must be.

Orion: to be blunt, my KDR is about as valuable as a spent shell casing. However, a pointless death vs a death that means something to me is more important. No matter what you say or think, I will never die a pointless death, even if the point of my death eludes others, it matters not to me.

So, trying to win doesn't "mean something" to you? Then why play? You can always get that lucky headshot, or pull a win out of the bag; I've killed the last four people on the enemy team by myself, piloting a Hunchback with one Medium Laser and no armor left to speak of. Given that a win is always possible to some extent, and that shutting down in a corner does not benefit you in any way, trying to win is never "pointless." Thus, your entire house of cards comes tumbling down - again.

Your tactics never stood; your justification amounts to "I do what makes me happy, no matter what the team needs," which makes a team game a poor fit for you. Please find another venue to pleasure yourself, and leave the team game to team players.

PS: "Even if the point of my death eludes others, it matters not to me?" Leaving aside the fact that we're talking about your policy of avoiding death when you don't feel like trying any more - you should really work on your prose. You seem to be trying for erudite sophistication, but you're really just coming across as some guy trying to sound smart with flowery phrases. Ignoring the question of whether (or not) you actually are such a person, you probably don't want to give the impression you're giving.

[Asmosis]

i usually use a 30 second rule regardless of mech type. if i can't rejoin the main group within 20-30 seconds, im too far away. That applies to scouting ahead in light/med/heavy mechs and also for hanging back as lrm/sniper.

YES this does apply to your lrm boat sitting near base camp. if your more than 200m behind your team, your not close enough and will get chewed up by scout mechs or splatcats that know how to flank.

timidity is a big problem. the most glaringly obvious one, your team is moving into the firefight location (lets say north west upper river city either from south or east positions) you all move in as a group, you start realising you yourself are getting out-gunned and a quick look at the battlegrid shows 2+ of your team have retreated back towards base asap, 2 more are "waiting for the opportune moment" to strike aka hiding behind nearby buildings and your remaining 2-3 (including you) are getting picked apart by 6-7 mechs who didnt suffer from timidity.

Edited by Asmosis, 17 March 2013 - 11:49 PM.

[Kmieciu]

I give you an example then a "cowardice" is a good tactic. While playing conquest you often have one team dividing to cap the first 2 or 3 bases at the same time, while the other team sticks together. When I see that the whole enemy force is closing in, I retreat to my team. But often some brainless pugger tries to fight alone against 3 or 4 enemy mechs. If our team is on the other side of the map, I won't stay to help him. 2 against 4 is almost a sure defeat. It's better to loose one player, then two.

[Budor]

There are no "taken spots" with the current matchmaker.

[Void Angel]

Kmieciu, on 18 March 2013 - 02:04 AM, said:

I give you an example then a "cowardice" is a good tactic. While playing conquest you often have one team dividing to cap the first 2 or 3 bases at the same time, while the other team sticks together. When I see that the whole enemy force is closing in, I retreat to my team. But often some brainless pugger tries to fight alone against 3 or 4 enemy mechs. If our team is on the other side of the map, I won't stay to help him. 2 against 4 is almost a sure defeat. It's better to loose one player, then two.

And nothing I have ever said in the eleven pages this post has run has ever told you otherwise. On the contrary:

Void Angel, on 18 January 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

At the end of the day, you should be cautious up to a point - recklessness is the courage of a fool, after all ... Don't be stupid, but don't let fear (or tactical tunnel-vision) restrain you from helping the team. As one of the Fracking Atlas pilots, I do not mind dying a horrible death as long as the team backs me up - because teamwork, not fear, is the true key to survival.

I'm not advocating any sort of suicidal stupidity here; rather, being overly cautious and indecisive causes you to act as individuals rather than a team - and that is suicidal.

Budor, on 18 March 2013 - 05:53 AM, said:

There are no "taken spots" with the current matchmaker.

Not quite. While the phase 3 matchmaker does break weight class matching if it needs to, it still tries to match people by weight class, so the point is still valid - and the Atlas Newbie Boat debate only concerns one small example of the point of the thread.

[Rejarial Galatan]

there is another side to this whole argument that is being ignored. What are the reasons to actually engage? XP is too low in all honesty. Even when I had the free time of the premium clock before they added that button for us to engage the clock on our own, I was lucky to see more than a few hundred xp per match. This is even with a founders mech and 3-4 KILLS in a fight, I was lucky to break 200 MXP in a fight like that. Worse yet is that we have 2 XP types. Mech and General. Mech XP is fast to gain if you play enough, but the other, General is slower than continental drift and takes an obscene amount to get anything useful. Sure you can convert MXP to GXP with MC, but, that is a bad model and is made impossible for those who for what ever reason it may be, cannot or will not pay for or use MC. Given that XP costs are shockingly high the reward is too low to do more than take a few pot shots, rinse and repeat and slow grind it out. IF this feels in any way familiar to another game, you may be a veteran of the grand father of all xp grind games Final Fantasy XI.

The long and short of it is this: the reward system is set too low given the prices we must pay for things in terms of XP.

Go ahead, say what ever you want, but this rings true for many people. Even I cannot spend even my FREE MC because something I MUST spend my FREE 20,000MC on is not in game yet, namely Clans.

Edited by Rejarial Galatan, 18 March 2013 - 08:31 AM.

[Cairbre]

Rejarial Galatan, on 18 March 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

there is another side to this whole argument that is being ignored. What are the reasons to actually engage? XP is too low in all honesty. Even when I had the free time of the premium clock before they added that button for us to engage the clock on our own, I was lucky to see more than a few hundred xp per match. This is even with a founders mech and 3-4 KILLS in a fight, I was lucky to break 200 MXP in a fight like that. Worse yet is that we have 2 XP types. Mech and General. Mech XP is fast to gain if you play enough, but the other, General is slower than continental drift and takes an obscene amount to get anything useful. Sure you can convert MXP to GXP with MC, but, that is a bad model and is made impossible for those who for what ever reason it may be, cannot or will not pay for or use MC. Given that XP costs are shockingly high the reward is too low to do more than take a few pot shots, rinse and repeat and slow grind it out. IF this feels in any way familiar to another game, you may be a veteran of the grand father of all xp grind games Final Fantasy XI.

The long and short of it is this: the reward system is set too low given the prices we must pay for things in terms of XP.

Go ahead, say what ever you want, but this rings true for many people. Even I cannot spend even my FREE MC because something I MUST spend my FREE 20,000MC on is not in game yet, namely Clans.

Eh, I'll bite... engaging will always give you more exp than not engaging, unless you can win a match without engaging. There are no rewards for powering down that I'm aware of. On the other hand, if you engage you open up the chance of spotter, tag/narc, component destroyed, dmg done, saviour kills, kills, and a host of other rewards. They may indeed be low... but low is still better than nothing, quineg?

Focused, controlled aggression tends to improve your dogfighting skills too, leading to an intangible reward for fighting well- you learn to fight better. Until the command module is fully operational and a strategic player removed from the action can act as a force multiplier, I honestly don't see the point of avoiding engagement with the enemy. All it would teach you is how to run and hide better, and MWO (despite the Zombies) isn't a survival horror game.