777 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

Communication is what I'm doing now - but communicating in PUG environments is often difficult. Even simple communication can lead to pushback from your fellow players, trolling... I even had some pedant once argue that the term "flank" can only ever be used as a verb - while the fight was going on! However, this thread isn't about PUG communication at all - rather, it's intended to help correct a certain area of bad play in the PUG environment.

Since the advent of the high-alpha sniper meta (which emerged after the original post) this kind of thing has been resurging. Many players will take long-range weapons and assume that camping behind a handy piece of cover is all they need to do. This tends to yield poor results in-game, particularly if they're still sitting behind a major terrain feature while the team is mixing it up in a fight - or staring downrange looking for targets until some brawler walks up and taps them on the shoulder with an AC/20.

In order to be a useful member of your team, you need to be willing to take good risks - and it's hard to learn when to do that by camping behind a skyscraper.

[Khobai]

Quote

This is for all the Atlas missile boats who don't realize that 60LRMS 40LRMS and two medium lasers (not a random example) is not a worthwhile Atlas build.

I disagree. I actually won #1 Assault in the very first tournament using an LRM40 Atlas with an ERPPC and lasers (http://mwomercs.com/...and-statistics/)

The way I see it, players have a right to use whatever weapons they want on their mechs as long as they know how to use them effectively and arnt a burden to their team. Its wrong to tell people that certain builds arnt worthwhile; the reality is, good pilots can make bad mechs good, and bad pilots can make good mechs bad.

And no timidity is not a tactic. Restraint is a tactic. Timidity is continuing to cower behind cover even when a window of opportunity presents itself. Restraint is cowering behind cover until the opportune moment arrives to apply force. Learning restraint is a crucial aspect of gettng better at MWO.

Edited by Khobai, 04 September 2013 - 08:48 AM.

[Void Angel]

Ah, but that's not the build I mentioned. In fact, my favorite D-DC build ever was an ALRM40 build with an ERPPC and large laser (till they kinda killed it with the ECM hardpoint nerf.) However, I cannot agree that there are no bad builds, and that it all comes down to player skill.

Take the example of the LRM40/2Mlaser Atlas. This was the kind of armament you'd see on a Catapult; presumably the tonnage difference was made up by ammo. The problem was that the build didn't have the firepower to be a threat in direct combat - or the mobility to maneuver to avoid enemies targeting it. Anything it did could be done much better by another chassis, such as the Stalker. The build didn't make effective use of the Atlas' strengths, and took up an Assault slot on the team with firepower you'd see on a heavy. That made it a bad build, and the guy's performance showed it.

Now, it's certainly true that sufficient skill can make up for a weak build. If you do well in a match, it doesn't really matter what you brought. But this simply means that you can be forgiven for bringing a bad 'mech as long as you still hold up your end of the team. Builds like the 9 Flamer Hunchback are still bad.

[Alekzander Smirnoff]

Myself and a friend once made pure trolling flamer builds, I was in an aws-9m and him in a 4p. (this was after the changes to how flamers work) I had a LRM 20 in the arm as well... >_>

The two of us did actually manage to kill one guy but I made the assumption it was because he was new and kept alpha striking and eventually burnt out his CT.

Edited by Alekzander Smirnoff, 04 September 2013 - 05:35 PM.

[Void Angel]

Hahah! Probably a good conclusion.

[WVAnonymous]

Alekzander Smirnoff, on 04 September 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

Myself and a friend once made pure trolling flamer builds, I was in an aws-9m and him in a 4p. (this was after the changes to how flamers work) I had a LRM 20 in the arm as well... >_>

The two of us did actually manage to kill one guy but I made the assumption it was because he was new and kept alpha striking and eventually burnt out his CT.

Either I've been getting more competent (since I quit buying new mechs and committed to mastering anything I had three of) or the new player base is plummeting, because the thing I miss the most is catching new players on Tourmaline and dismantling them while they figure out heat management.

On the topic of timidity, now that both LRMs and PPCs are 0 damage inside the effective range, and the SRM are relatively un-nerfed, the face hugging brawler is back again! Until they rebalance everything again...

[Void Angel]

Eh, brawlers never left. We just go frustrated. It was really hard to be a brawler in PPC Alley, but with the last round of rebalancing, I think it'll be ok. PPCs no longer look like an all-range powerhouse, and there might actually be a good reason to use ER Large lasers now. =)

[WildeKarde]

Tactics means you don't have to do the charge over the ridge. Assaults tend to be slow, if they go over and are too far to be effective then they are wasted. They need someone to help plan their advance to come in at the optimal location to attack the enemies.

On the other side lighter mechs can be ready to flank and turn an engagement to your sides advantage, they gain nothing by charging over a ridge into massed enemy fire ... and probably missile barrage as well.

Caution is a good tactic but not when it paralyses you into action.

Plus do you know how long it takes to wax and buff and atlas, you don't want to mess up the shine too early

[Earl White]

Awesome post Void Angel, you make me feel honoured to be a Marik, now I can bask in your glorious tactical wisdom while sipping Mojitos.

[Void Angel]

I'm... actually FedCom. The forum is being random again.

[tib3r]

Void Angel you are 100% right on the money.

In real armed forces, its called being a coward, and that is a punishable offense.

The way I see people playing, unwilling to attack, unwilling to do anything other then sit back and shoot is sickening.
I find the whole LRM boat, assault boating, etc thing to be disgusting.

Tell me I'm wrong, I will watch an atlas every game sit back far from the fight and lob LRMs at the other players. Or a stalker. Or a catapult. They will proudly announce before the match that they are a boat, and I will almost always follow thanks for admitting you have no spine.

I find it funny that before I quit playing my jagers as much I would end the match with 2-4 kills, over 500 damage out of 750 possible in a mech with an XL engine, less then 380 armor, 4 ac5s, no AMS. I, the one that should be sitting in the back playing sniper, was being more aggressive then assault mechs or mechs like quickdraws, orions, victors, dragons who should be fighting in the front line while I hang back 100m or so helping them tear down the foe.

So no, telling me that being timid as a tactic doesn't make you look like a good smart pilot because you survive. It makes you look like a coward and fool to believe that such indecisiveness and cowardice would ever warrant considering yourself a combatant.

[tib3r]

Rejarial Galatan, on 18 March 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

Hey Abivard, check this out:

“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

“Supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.”
―Sun Tzu, The Art of War

“Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory:
1 He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.
2 He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces.
3 He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its ranks.
4 He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.
5 He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

“Ultimate excellence lies not in winning every battle, but in defeating the enemy without ever fighting.”
― Sun Tzu

Do I really need to copy all these into this again? Sun Tzu himself states quite clearly that it is better to win with out ever fighting...


actually void, i see no reason to fire a retort at you, as we see things very very differently. All that matters is this: you play MWO your way, I will my way. IF we are teamed, I will watch your back. You can or do not have to watch mine. THAT is all that matters here.

We are 2 distinctly different people, with 2 distinct back grounds, and takes on what should or should not happen. I am not you, nor you me, but, I suspect you knew that already.

edit: blasted color/copy codes

Your stupidity moves me.
This is referring to resource attrition, strategic movement when we are playing at a tactical level.
Reading anything by Sun Tzu without a good understanding of military science is pointless.

[Void Angel]

Well, there's nothing inherently wrong with an Assault using long-range weapons - unless it's an Atlas. The hardpoints just don't work out well. But a Stalker can make a formidable missile boat and still bring enough medium lasers to give the odd Medium or light 'Mech pause. The difficulty isn't the odd LRM boat, but an overall hesitancy to commit in a PuG.

And to be fair, this is a natural tendency to some degree - especially since 12 mans made their debut. That happened not too long after the ERPPC was nerfed back down into sanity from being an all-range powerhouse. People were starting to play a more balanced game, but suddenly there was 50% more firepower when you walked around the wrong corner and the scouts didn't do their jobs... So people stopped leaving cover, making it hard on the Assaults who would Cowboy/Cowgirl Up and go after people - and the whole thing snowballed. Still, people are generally happier doing something with other people, and if we keep on doing the right thing in PuGs and (this is the hard part for me) not yelling at them when they fail us, we can have enough of an effect on the overall player culture to improve the quality of life in the game.

PS: Augh! Thanks for the support, but please do not poke the troll. It doesn't argue well, and its posts are non-constructive.

[Spawnsalot]

I'm Commander Spawnsalot and this is my favourite thread on the forums.

Great thread Void, just finished all 15 pages - I laughed, I cried died a little inside, I learned.

Before the ECM hard-point patch I too ran an ALRM45 DDC but with an ERPPC and TAG and it was good, Sooooo good. Now I've had to change it into a mid-range bully, still fun though...

So come on everybody! Don't be afraid to get stuck in!

[tib3r]

Screw it, I should just rip the SRMs off my JM6-A and throw on some LRM5s. Four of them.

Since everyone wants to play like a troll and a bullet shy chicken I might as well at least play a troll. A
A really rotten one, with two LBXs to boot.

[Void Angel]

Nah, just position yourself to punish/counter the enemy's rush when it comes, and engage targets intelligently as needed. You just have to be patient, and try to encourage people to do the right thing.

[Dugra Dugrasson]

See, this is why I am concerned for the introduction of Clan 'Mechs. I've got all these guys talkin' 'bout the Dire Wolf like it's some sort of CERPPC/CGauss/CLRM/CERLL boat. The Dire Wolf is meant to be first man in beating someones face in. Clans =/= Playing timid.

I blame poptarts.

Edited by nodebate, 14 October 2013 - 12:51 PM.

[White Bear 84]

Timidity is a tactical error and will likely lose the game. OP in one sentence. x

[Void Angel]

Not a bad summary - but the difference between diplomacy and dogmatism is often explanation.

[Training Instructor]

Still running into an enormous number of cowards when I'm lonewolfing in my atlas. Apparently I'm a 100 ton, 58kph scout.

I also like how on almost every map the herd all think they're doing some kind of advanced flanking maneuver by going extreme left or extreme right in their heavies and assaults. Flanking is smart, but seizing the center lets you dictate where the rest of the fight takes place, and generally means you spot it early if the other team is trying to do a caprun.