777 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

It's understandable how people became so over-cautious, but it's still a bad way to PuG.

[aniviron]

Training Instructor, on 14 October 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

Still running into an enormous number of cowards when I'm lonewolfing in my atlas. Apparently I'm a 100 ton, 58kph scout.

I also like how on almost every map the herd all think they're doing some kind of advanced flanking maneuver by going extreme left or extreme right in their heavies and assaults. Flanking is smart, but seizing the center lets you dictate where the rest of the fight takes place, and generally means you spot it early if the other team is trying to do a caprun.

Clearly you're not doing your job then! Instruct them to the front lines with AC20 shells if you need to!

[Ghogiel]

The most used tactical error is actually "pushing"

a: without number advantage
b: without intel
c: into mechs outfitted to push your **** it.

edit: d: into known kill zones or choke points (how did I forget this lol!)

Edited by Ghogiel, 14 October 2013 - 11:45 PM.

[Void Angel]

Well, intel is hard to get in PuGs (though using words can help.) However, I'd say that the real problem you're looking at with most of your list is, respectively:

A: Hiding teammates.
B: Hiding scouts.
C:Hiding brawlers.

As far as people crossing danger zones, I don't see that too often, playing my Atlas. Instead, I see them scattering out and hiding while I try to rally them when a push is required. Other tactical problems do occur (and always will, even in organized play,) but the biggest critical failure I'm seeing is the failure to come out and fight when the tactical environment demands it.

[Ghogiel]

Void Angel, on 15 October 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

Well, intel is hard to get in PuGs (though using words can help.) However, I'd say that the real problem you're looking at with most of your list is, respectively:

A: Hiding teammates.
B: Hiding scouts.
C:Hiding brawlers.

As far as people crossing danger zones, I don't see that too often, playing my Atlas. Instead, I see them scattering out and hiding while I try to rally them when a push is required. Other tactical problems do occur (and always will, even in organized play,) but the biggest critical failure I'm seeing is the failure to come out and fight when the tactical environment demands it.

I see the opposite. Since the predominate meta in the competitive games heavy drop decks is long range high alpha builds on the HGNs VTRs and 3Ds, and the key to a snipers success is getting off shots while not being exposed to return fire, basically both teams set up shop in cover and it's 5-8mins of lights posturing and poptarting until something happens, usually in the light mech battle. Most of the time any brawlers are hidden, or perhaps the cents, are positioning for a banzai flank attack to cause havoc and zombie in the midst while the rest push.... into a superior sniper position to cut the enemy down.

In my PUGs it's slightly different.

One team will get SJR and old DV8 premades, something like 5 of those 8 are in top tier PUG mechs > HGNs, VTRs, Misery, Jager and 3Ds. Then they tart on the enemy that move into the kill zones or do any 'tardridge hump positioning, they take 2 down, then it's over really.

If we are a little un/luckier, both sides will get equal number of meta builds and players who know to play the current meta, and players who will position themselves poorly and both sides will take losses from the HGN et al. Then it goes a bit more like the 12 mans after that.

a: if I am lucky team mates are being effective at using cover and staying hidden from any scouts and snipers. And when I say number advantage, I mean up on kills, or knowing that it's going to be a 4 on 3 and those aren't 3 brawl atlases. Need to out weigh and out gun, or gain that in the first salvo or it's high risk and not tactically sound.
b: The meta. Scouts have to use stealth to gather intel or make a successful base rush. Scouts should never engage unless they are pretty sure to come out at least 1 on top, if all scouts are down and enemy still has one up, that's really bad news.
c: The meta. Brawlers need to stay hidden or they get sniped out. A brawler is best suited to ambush tactics, which requires being unseen or they get sniped out.

Basically, games are a stalemate, both teams in highly defensible positions, waiting for the other to make the positioning error. You have 4 choices. And the only one that isn't high risk is staying in the defensive position.

Edited by Ghogiel, 17 October 2013 - 06:47 PM.

[Killing Strangers]

I agree 100% , but new players need to be told this in a constructive way , not berated for it ...help them become better , make them want to become better, don't belittle them .....if they leave, who we gonna kill ???

[YueFei]

Ghogiel, on 17 October 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:

Basically, games are a stalemate, both teams in highly defensible positions, waiting for the other to make the positioning error. You have 4 choices. And the only one that isn't high risk is staying in the defensive position.

This problem is exacerbated by most maps being small, and the possible avenues of movement being even more limited now by the terrain movement changes. If maps were larger, a brawler attempting to maneuver closer would have more options, more angles to approach by. As it is, there's just a handful of possible routes, and that makes it easy to cover with snipers.

[Void Angel]

Dekeon, I'm being constructive here, and not belittling anyone - on the other hand, these behaviors aren't good, and lead to frustration and unnecessary losses. New players need to know that.

Ghogiel, I'm extremely reluctant to invoke "The Meta," because much of what we perceive The Meta to be will vary depending on who we're typically matched with, and the time of day we play. However, most people I've talked to, particularly those starting the game, tell me similar things - they experience frustration far more with refusal to take risks, rather than mis-aimed aggression.

Even so, a bad push is very often fed by excessive caution. I have lost count of the number of lights I've seen hide behind the Atlas and refuse to scout; so the Brawlers got tired of being poptarted and went in blind - a bad decision, but not their first choice; they felt driven to it. I've often seen my brawlers push with a numerical advantage only to stall and die because the enemy's fire support moved to help their own brawlers - while my own fire support stayed rooted to their favorite sniper spots on Coward's Ridge. I'm not advocating blind rushes, or idiotic aggression, nor am I railing against reasonable caution - as I said from the very first post, "recklessness is the courage of a fool. But if our reasonable desire to avoid unnecessary damage turns into risk-aversion and leads to bad tactical decisions, we're substituting timidity for tactics.

And that's what this thread is all about.

[Ghogiel]

Void Angel, on 18 October 2013 - 10:35 PM, said:

Even so, a bad push is very often fed by excessive caution. I have lost count of the number of lights I've seen hide behind the Atlas and refuse to scout; so the Brawlers got tired of being poptarted and went in blind - a bad decision, but not their first choice; they felt driven to it.

Read the level of caution on your team. It's part of being situationally aware of the over arching flow of the battle. Any brawler getting popped on and pressured to push like that is badly positioned to begin with and it just means they are being out played and out maneuvered by the enemy at that time. It's a case of the enemy is now capitalizing and controlling the flow. Poptarts forcing enemy pushes out of their desperation is second only to making them back the **** up XD.

[Void Angel]

Of course you evaluate your team - I've pointed that out myself in this thread and others. Nor do I think they made the right decision. The point of that, er, point was that even when the critical failure is an ill-considered push, you still often find that excessive caution is driving the tactical situation.

Edited by Void Angel, 18 October 2013 - 11:40 PM.

[Skygrunt]

void angel this an amazing well written and thought out post it was awesome to read thank you.

[Ghogiel]

Void Angel, on 18 October 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

The point of that, er, point was that even when the critical failure is an ill-considered push, you still often find that excessive caution is driving the tactical situation.

Not really imo. In my experience it is less common that aggressively holding a good defensible position forces you to unfavorably trade armor or take losses unnecessarily. In fact pushing even if you are up 1 or 2 mechs isn't the best thing. At that point waiting out the clock is usually the preferred tactic especially under RHoD rules as it still results in a win.

[Void Angel]

We're not talking about Run Hot or Die, or organized team tactics. This post is solely about PuGs - organized teams use different tactics. With an uncoordinated PuG, it works far differently.

[Ghogiel]

Void Angel, on 19 October 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

We're not talking about Run Hot or Die, or organized team tactics. This post is solely about PuGs - organized teams use different tactics. With an uncoordinated PuG, it works far differently.

FYI waiting out the clock also results in a win if you are up on kills in any MWO match.

Edited by Ghogiel, 19 October 2013 - 05:48 PM.

[Void Angel]

I am well aware of basic game mechanics, yes.

[Damon Howe]

Every now and then you'll have someone in the team chat type "PUSH". Usually, this is not without merit. Usually, it comes from a player or players who either A) know what they're doing or have some knowledge about the overall battle that gives them at least some reasoning to call for a combined forward effort to break the enemy's back. (I say usually, because sometimes its just someone who's trying to be a commander but has no concept of strategy)

Now, when the call goes out, PUGs may push. Some may even push hard. But when they start coming under fire, they suddenly stop whatever they're doing and start looking for cover and backing up. Typically they die about five seconds later, but not before they've held up their own team long enough to get into position to roflstomp whatever 'push' you were hoping to make.

THIS is what really "grinds my gears" when it comes to PUG timidity. The PUSH is supposed to break the back of the enemy force by overwhelming firepower. Naturally, the guys upfront are GOING to take the worst of it. Likely, they will also die first. But any successful pushes will have these results before the enemy gets completely overwhelmed and destroyed. Its the stop, the 'pause' the hesitation that kills not only the push but your entire friendly team. And PUGs LOVE to hesitate. They fear dieing quickly, and thus seal their own death. Same for the pugs who hestiate behind the first wave to die, and then seeing they're down 4 mechs after a minute decide to do their own charge to break the line...but by then its too late and they only offer their juicy mech parts to the mech gods as sacrifice for their efforts.

So please, pugs, no matter how stupid it may seem, when the charge order is given, freakin' CHARGE balls-to-the-wall until you find yourself on the other side or a corpse, but at least you'll be a corpse that made the enemy turn tail and run!

[Ghogiel]

Void Angel, on 19 October 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

I am well aware of basic game mechanics, yes.

Then we agree your concern is invalid.

[Void Angel]

Now you're just embarrassing yourself. Please restrict yourself to constructive posts.

[Ghogiel]

Void Angel, on 19 October 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

Now you're just embarrassing yourself. Please restrict yourself to constructive posts.

Please address the points made thanks.

[Void Angel]

You haven't made any points. You've stated conclusions, based solely on your subjective recollection of your own experience, then resorted to insulting assumptions and outright trolling when I disagreed. I've posted several arguments for why I hold my opinions - and you haven't addressed a single one of them. For the second time, please be constructive in your posting.

Edited by Void Angel, 20 October 2013 - 01:10 AM.