949 replies to this topic

[Rejarial Galatan]

Yes, I compared CASE to Coolant. Why? because its designed, like coolant flushes to mitigate the risks of the set up. Heat can just as easily destroy a mech as an ammo detonation can. I am soo sorry Petersen, but, no matter how good anyone thinks they are, they will, eventually wind up in a situation where they can no longer mitigate heat and survive. We all shall 'die' in this game, each and every one of us. We will all find out selves at that moment just before 'death' where we will choose to die with weapons blazing or simply let our mech sputter to stop and be fly swatted. Even you petersen, will know this fate. I like this old adage I once heard: No matter how good you are, someone is exponentially better. I promise you Petersen, there will come that moment when your facing your enemy, your ammo is expended, your mech is damaged so severely its ability to cool is laughable, and in your attempt to stave off death, your heat will rise.

It is in that moment, when death is fixing to take you by the hand on the field and walk you off, when that last alpha strike of what remains of your weapons, means life or death. You can try to deny it all you like. It will happen, to ALL of us, except the developers, they have god powers lol.

[Arikiel]

The Clans.....
Seriously I'm not trolling! I would have been happy with a purely Succession Wars Era game.
Guess we'll have to put up with them pretty soon though. Oh well.

[Karl Streiger]

Let them there Coolant but give us CASE II - but don't do it before 3062

[Rejarial Galatan]

Arikiel, on 29 May 2012 - 10:46 PM, said:

The Clans.....
Seriously I'm not trolling! I would have been happy with a purely Succession Wars Era game.
Guess we'll have to put up with them pretty soon though. Oh well.

there has been too long an absence of the Clans, it is high time they return. I mean c'mon, MW3 IIRC had no clans, nor did MW4, just the technology.

[William Petersen]

Rejarial Galatan, on 29 May 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

Yes, I compared CASE to Coolant. Why? because its designed, like coolant flushes to mitigate the risks of the set up. Heat can just as easily destroy a mech as an ammo detonation can. I am soo sorry Petersen, but, no matter how good anyone thinks they are, they will, eventually wind up in a situation where they can no longer mitigate heat and survive. We all shall 'die' in this game, each and every one of us. We will all find out selves at that moment just before 'death' where we will choose to die with weapons blazing or simply let our mech sputter to stop and be fly swatted. Even you petersen, will know this fate. I like this old adage I once heard: No matter how good you are, someone is exponentially better. I promise you Petersen, there will come that moment when your facing your enemy, your ammo is expended, your mech is damaged so severely its ability to cool is laughable, and in your attempt to stave off death, your heat will rise.

It is in that moment, when death is fixing to take you by the hand on the field and walk you off, when that last alpha strike of what remains of your weapons, means life or death. You can try to deny it all you like. It will happen, to ALL of us, except the developers, they have god powers lol.

No, heat cannot "just as easily destroy a Mech" (unless you're packing ammo, too. =P). That's an out right fabrication. I can manage my heat. I have total control over my heat level form Mech Lab to the pilot's seat. Heat accumulation is a direct result of my actions.

Ammo explosions are, largely, beyond my control. I can be fancy with positioning and favor a wounded side-torso ammo-bin, but eventually, it's going to take hits which may, or may not, cause ammo explosions. That's random. I can't control random.

That "randomness" without CASE equates to total, unavoidable destruction (unless I've spent the vast, vast majority of my ammo and/or am in a very beefy and relatively undamaged Mech). You overheat, you shut down for a few seconds and take a few free shots which may or may not destroy you, depending on how badly damage you already are.

Again, Apples-to-Apples.

Heat analogizes to ammo. They are both required to fire their respective weapons; interestingly, the larger caliber ACs, and larger racks of LRMs have pretty strict heat capacity requirements, too.

Coolant does not analogize to CASE. One excuses bad play, one offers a modicum of control over the randomness of the critical system.

Edited by William Petersen, 29 May 2012 - 10:53 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

You can not, 100% of the time control 100% of your heat. It simply cannot be done. Saying you can, like you are implying, is fantasy! You refuse to acknowledge that, there will come a time, when you have taken so much damage to critical components such as heat sinks that mitigating heat is simply no longer an option. And yes, heat can just as easily destroy a mech. We are talking a nuclear reaction strapped under your seat or just behind your back depending on the mech, if the reactor gets too hot thanks to a lack of heat mitigation from internal reactor coolant <which we all assume is there to keep the fuel source for this very reaction stable and cool> being boiled off thanks to a lack of heat sink mitigation, that reactor is going to pull a Chernobyl on you faster than you can flip the switch to get out of the machine.
Fact is, stack on that reactor to your energy weapons plus heat sink damage plus hitting the shut down over ride because you would prefer to go down swinging in the end, will, with out a coolant flush across what remains of the heat sinks, will force the reactor to supernova on you.
And, face it, coolant flushing in what ever form is to heat mitigation what case is to ammo explosions. It is a way to avoid having your weapons cook your mech in one way or the other. On a fun note here Petersen, if you think I am joking about the heat thing, consider this, it takes heating an atomic nuclei to a mind blowing 50 MILLION degrees. just so you cant say i am making this up: http://other.nrl.nav...eactiontemp.htm
Stack that colossal temperature inside the reactor core of your mech, to a failing heat sink system PLUS ambient temperature outside the battle mech to heat generated by chemical propulsion in missiles <if you still have em left at this point> to energy weapon discharges, your mech will superheat rather quickly. Dumping a few gallons of coolant across heatsinks at a critical moment between life and death of a mech can save your life. deny it all you like again, we all, even those who would disagree, will see that moment, where a coolant flush of some sort could have saved you a defeat and garnered a victory.

[JP Josh]

XavierX, on 26 May 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

This. Any variation of Pay-2-Win ammo, modules, mechs or weapons will sour the community and ultimately ruin the potential of the game to reach a wider audience. I can't stand WoT. It puts me, as a tier 4 medium, in a game against tier 7 and 8 behemoths that you can't even penetrate unless you buy the gold ammo. Ridiculous.

i see your frusteration but i found a way around that your suppose to have all your arty players cover you when one of the guys come around the corner and looks at you.

that and the fact that you are able to travel 60 kph and they only travel 30 tops but stilll some maps your fubared no matter what.

MWO sovled this by giving us light players jump jets and all weapons types do same damadge ex mad laazers on atlas does some damadge as a med lazer on a jehny plus both players have to keep the beam on the spot they want to damadge because lazers now deal damadge over time its not instant any more. yes instant to hit but its got to heat up and melt the armer off.

[Rejarial Galatan]

wait till the assault mechs with Jump Jets standard start hitting the field of battle. oh the carnage! oh the joy!

[JP Josh]

what i really hate will not be in the game itle be left out because of legal reasons

like the mech from the vid :C

**** YOU COPYRITE LAWS YOUR LIFE EXPECTANCY IS ONLY SUPPOSE TO LAST TEN YEARS FOR A REASON ADAPT OR DIE

[Rejarial Galatan]

some folks keep re-upping the copy right as it comes due.

[Evinthal]

Rejarial Galatan, on 29 May 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

You can not, 100% of the time control 100% of your heat. It simply cannot be done. Saying you can, like you are implying, is fantasy!

Wrong. 99.9999999999% of the time you CAN manage your heat. Going to over heat? SKIP FIRING A WEAPON. The ONLY time you cannot be accountable for over-heating is when some jack-*** with a flamer boat comes up and makes a Quiznos sub sandwich of you.

That is it.

[JP Josh]

Evinthal, on 29 May 2012 - 11:24 PM, said:

Wrong. 99.9999999999% of the time you CAN manage your heat. Going to over heat? SKIP FIRING A WEAPON. The ONLY time you cannot be accountable for over-heating is when some jack-*** with a flamer boat comes up and makes a Quiznos sub sandwich of you.

That is it.

and the flamer dude just needs to be taped just a tinyest bit and he goes combloie

[Belisarius1]

William Petersen, on 29 May 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

Coolant does not analogize to CASE. One excuses bad play, one offers a modicum of control over the randomness of the critical system.

But coolant doesn’t excuse bad play, provided the heat scale is designed with coolant in mind.

The reasoning is so simple that it’s even visible if you apply it to TT turns. Let’s say we have a ‘mech with a 30 point alpha that dissipates 20 per turn. Let’s say the shutdown threshold is 10. That ‘mech then has to be very careful firing its full alpha, because it will be sitting at 10 points afterwards.

Now, if you take the above heat scale and add coolant to the value of 5 points per flush, suddenly that ‘mech looks a lot more comfortable because it can flush itself down to a safe 5 points of heat each time it fires. Here, you’re justified in calling coolant an easy button.

Except…. that’s a stupid way to do coolant. If you include a 5-point coolant flush, but also reduce the shutdown threshold from 10 to 5, the ‘mech has to flush every single time it alphas to not blow the threshold completely. Now, with coolant, the ‘mech is actually worse off than when it started.

The problem is that in MW4, they both added a 10 point coolant flush and increased the shutdown threshold to 30. Of course energy weapons are going to be strong in that environment. Just because they implemented it badly doesn’t mean the mechanic is broken.

Edited by Belisarius1, 29 May 2012 - 11:31 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Evinthal, on 29 May 2012 - 11:24 PM, said:

Wrong. 99.9999999999% of the time you CAN manage your heat. Going to over heat? SKIP FIRING A WEAPON. The ONLY time you cannot be accountable for over-heating is when some jack-*** with a flamer boat comes up and makes a Quiznos sub sandwich of you.

That is it.

while your theory is good on paper, in practice, it falls apart. Here is how: Your mech is critically damaged, as is your opponent. Either of you with the next alpha can kill the other. Are you going to tell me, your going to be tentative with your weapons in a critical moment just to avoid a heat shut down? The thing is, if that next alpha will kill you, and save my hide, you bet I will alpha, no questions, no regrets. What you ignored is when the flush is its most vital, and cherry picked out the bit you wanted and decided to run off with it. My point will always be, no matter who ignores it is, there is that moment in your fight, when you know, the one thing that could save you, can just as easily kill you. Hold back if you want in that moment, but, know this, its not gonna save you if you wait for heat to fall to a 'safe' level, because, most of us will go: if its him or me, my enemy dies, even if it costs me my own life to make this shot.

Like it or not, if it is done right, and I mean RIGHT, as Belisarius has pointed out in post number 416, it is a very viable option. You can say manage your heat all you want, but, in the end, there will always be that point when you are near death, your mech is soo battered from the fight, it cannot mitigate heat, but you need to keep firing those lasers, because you have no ammo left and its a true kill or be killed moment.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Coolant Pod, a technology in the prototype/production stage in 3049 by the Federated Suns (via NAIS)

Quote

Description
Virtually a self-contained emergency Coolant Truck, the Coolant Pod contain a reserve of compressed freon which can be flushed directly into the attached 'Mechs coolant system, boosting the effectiveness of each Single heat sinks by 200% and each Double Heat Sinks by 150% for 10 seconds.
The experimental coolant pods are under development among all the Inner Sphere and Clans factions, examples produced by the NAIS "Project Power Flush" are functionally identical to prototypes developed by the Scientist Castes on the Clan Homeworlds, but all have been so far unable to overcome the disadvantages of what makes them work so well and so fast: pressurized coolant.
Coolant pods are highly susceptible to weapon fire, a fully pressurized pod will rupture and cause internal damage in the same manner of an ammunition explosion if struck. To avoid over-pressurizing and damaging the coolant systems of the equipped 'Mech, for safety reasons only one pod can be engaged at a time, though multiple pods can be carried. The violent release of coolant is damaging enough to the strained cooling systems of BattleMechs, the fragile modular coolant systems aboard OmniMechs consistently fail under the strain despite years of research by the Clans.


...

Each coolant pod weighs one ton and takes up one critical spot. For each turn a coolant pod is active, each heat sink (no matter if single or double) dissipates 1 extra heat point. Only one pod may be used per turn. If a full/unusued pod is struck, the pod causes internal damage (Unbound/Tactical Handbook = 20 point, Maximum Tech/Tactical Operations = 10 points) just like an ammunition explosion.

-Sarna.net

IF YA WANT A COOLANT FLUSH THINGIE, THEN HERE YA GO! Ask the Devs for it.

If ya don't want it, then post here about it, but let's all play nic*smacked in the back of the head* HEY!

Edited by Prosperity Park, 29 May 2012 - 11:45 PM.

[Ian]

Quote

why should ammo boaters have a system to lessen the risk of ammo detonations? If I cannot have the emergency button to dump just enough heat to make a hail mary shot to try to save my life, why should ammo boaters have a system that will be in the game? I never once have said that the coolant flush should be used flippantly as a way to get out of over heating. But, I ask you to think about this for a moment Petersen, and yea, I clicked the "view anyway' button. But, I digress, I ask you ponder this a moment. You have, lets say the Awesome, and I am in the same mech. We share the primary configuration, just for arguments sake alright? Let us also say our mechs have identical damage. We are at 10% remaining condition, and the next alpha strike will breach the center torso and core either of us. Let us also say for argument sake, our heat sinks are at, 10% efficiency from massive damage, again, for arguments sake. Now, here is the scenario:

We see each other across the field of strife. Our targeting computer's are messed up badly. We begin firing at each other trying to hit each other. Because you want to kill me, just because of what ever reason <being civil here> you fire and fire and fire, while for some reason, I stop firing and just close in on dead reckoning. Your heat is now reaching critical while mine has gone down to a safer level. Your mech is screaming in that oh so lovely voice we know and love from the games past, that auto shutdown is starting. You know that if you can get that alpha strike off you can core me. But, your mech suddenly shuts down because the server burped and missed your shut down over ride command. I fire my alpha and your mech goes down.
Now, lets rewrite that ending a little. Coolant Flushing in some form is in the game. Pick what ever form suits you for your imagination. The mech begins to complain about auto shutdown nearing. You hit the over ride, then open the coolant dump valve, and cool your mech just enough to belt out the alpha strike. Because you cooled and are half a second faster, you belt out said alpha strike and core me, followed by your mech suddenly shutting down because you decided to revel in my 'death' and your mech over heated. You sit there laughing at me because I died, and you didnt. You get that laugh thanks to coolant flushing in some form. I hope this helps you see my side of this. Where it should be a last ditch thing to kill before being killed.

But you do have an emergency button to let you make that one last hail-Mary shot to save your life. The override button.

The heat scale has always been 30.

[Rejarial Galatan]

ok, gonna ask it Prosperity, this mean you are with us on coolant flushing in some form being in game or against the idea totally?

Ian, on 29 May 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

But you do have an emergency button to let you make that one last hail-Mary shot to save your life. The override button.

The heat scale has always been 30.

Sure you can override the shut down, but, the heat that is warranting it is STILL there, the whole idea of using the coolant as a last ditch hail-mary idea, is to remove enough heat to 1. avoid the shut down at first, 2. not make that reactor which is at the least 50 Million degrees at its core not pull a supernova on you. 3. if you blow up because you over rode that shut down, made the alpha any way, in theory you both get the kill, and i am not one for handing over kills to you, just to kill you. that is the idea of the coolant flush, to avoid going boom yourself when you make your hail-mary shot.

[Cruxshadow]

Arikiel, on 29 May 2012 - 10:46 PM, said:

The Clans.....
Seriously I'm not trolling! I would have been happy with a purely Succession Wars Era game.
Guess we'll have to put up with them pretty soon though. Oh well.

Well the Dev team could have set it 50 years earlier, but that would have cut out alot of mechs.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Cruxshadow, on 29 May 2012 - 11:45 PM, said:

Well the Dev team could have set it 50 years earlier, but that would have cut out alot of mechs.

and players.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Coolant Pods and CASE both have a purpose in the game: they both are meant to mitigate the deleterioius features of their associated weapons platforms; they both take up space, weight, and stuff...; and they're both canon to the time when this game will be launched.

There is a significant difference in the amount of tactical advantages and risks they afford you, though: CASE is not really bad for you in any way, and it kind of helps to keep your Mech intact... but it won't keep you in the fight because you'll still lose all the affected weapons and bodyparts. CASE lets you limp home instead of die on the spot; Coolant Pods are volatile and can explode like ammo, but the gains they offer can keep your lasers blazing for that extra 10-seconds you might need to keep yourself alive and see the fight through.

There is also a major difference of "Prototype vs Common Equipment." Cooland Pods would be pretty hard to come-by... but I'm not against their inclusion in the game as long as they obey the rules.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 29 May 2012 - 11:57 PM.