167 replies to this topic

[SlXSlXSlX]

Not much can be done to force us to play that role however. We may, if we are having fun (balance is fun). But if its not fun, hell I might just go bananas on my bossy teammates, then jump to the next match. IF you made the outcome worth something in such a match, small MC kicker for example, I may feel more "motivated".

Not sure how a potential team deathmatch mode amounts to a mode designed for the benefit of the lone wolves...

Anyone that can explain this?

Edited by SlXSlXSlX, 25 January 2013 - 09:45 PM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Then why are you guys playing this? Those of you lone wolves out there who don't want to contribute to the team.

You can still "have fun" and be productive to the game. It's honestly not that hard.

I may be on a team, but I'd say that my play rate is 50 premade/50pug when it comes to how I play, there's TONS of time I just, don't want to play with my team, I just want to get a few matches in and screw around a bit. But there's also a good chunck that I want to play with a group I know I can trust.

That is why I'm on a team, and I find it odd that so many of you throw this false argument out that you "don't have time to be on a team." All I can say is, if that's the case and you've actually looked for a team you've been looking in the wrong places.

The other argument is "I just want to jump on and play" frankly, there's nothing stopping this, being in a team or not.

In the end, the devlopers have flat out told you now what your role, as a PuG player is. that you will pad out existing units that cannot field a full 12 players. The devlopers in no way need to limit how many premades are on a team.

I hate to tell you guys, but the structure for this game, from the begining, has been in favor of teamwork, and orginized teams. And frankly that's how it is for ANY competitive game that supports teams. And even if this game didn't, people would figure out ways to game the system anyway.

So you keep saying "not to tell you that you have a choice." No there's a choice you have to make, You can see the future of this game infront of you and what this game is shaping into, It's something many of us have known for quite some time now, and many people have chosen to ignore. MWO is focused on team based combat and will ALWAYS favor "Premade" teams of players who can communicate. Those of you who argue for ingame VOIP [which sucks bandwith from gameplay and 9 times out of 10 lags to the point that any attempts at communication is folly anyway.] I can't help but laugh at this too, to want the devlopers to put in something that will only be used by a small number of you to begin with. Those of you arguing for it, I bet will stop using it around a month after it's introduction, if not sooner.

So what other excuse are you going to use for not hopping into a team to play the game as intended? Time? Time isn't an issue, you're already playing, you have to take 10 minutes to register with a team at some point, and make 5 here or there to deal with whatever VOIP software is involved [which normally doesn't even take that long]

In my 24 years of gaming, I've witnessed every excuse that can be brought up, and hell I've used some of them myself, but these days, there's literally nothing you can say that can't be disputed. I've been "Group gaming" for a good 10+ years now, and it is not hard nor is it time consuming. Not to mention, just because you join a team, doesn't mean you can't play on your own terms still.

Literally the only excuse you have left, is that you are Antisocial to the point that makes even me, who is a very antisocial person, worried for your well being.

Edited by Jade Kitsune, 25 January 2013 - 10:31 PM.

[Morang]

[Wraith05]

Critical Fumble, on 25 January 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

Probably your least constructive post ever xD. You know what they say about fighting monsters.

For the most part, solo players really could care less about people grouping up to play. We just don't want 12v12 matches with one group of 12 on one side, and a group of 7 with 5 average solo droppers on the other rubber stamped "fair and balanced". I don't think player organizations want that either, seeing as it'd make winning contingent on having 12 people online.

Personally I don't think that letting people dictate the entirety of their forces is a good thing, either, but that's a different discussion entirely.

I would kinda like the 12v12 to work with a "group cap" so one side doesn't have 12 people in a group. Maybe 6 or 8(2 lances) would be the cap a group can have in it/allowed into the game per side and the rest MUST be filled with solo players (to avoid sync drop).

Edited by Wraith05, 25 January 2013 - 10:46 PM.

[SlXSlXSlX]

IF premade teams, as a single unit, did not comprise 50% of a pub team, I would happily support their existance. In WoT what works is 20%. Here it is 50%.

Fix that.

Alot of other things in mwo I can agree with, most in fact.

[Brilig]

Jade Kitsune, on 25 January 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

PUG'S you guys need to understand your role here, your entire purpose in this game, is to pad out existing units, THAT IS YOUR ROLE. So you have a choice, continue to pug, and be a "lone gun" for hire that get's attatched to any unit anywhere at any time you decide to drop. Or you join a group.

Once you join a "House" when CW hits, I guarnetee the way drops are set up are going to be more along the lines of "You're Allied with Steiner as a Lone Wolf, you get dropped into matches to back up the Steiner Lines." So you'll be dropping with "Stiener" alligned units... or if you're house Kurita, you'll be dropping with Kurita alligned Units.

Great post. I think you hit the nail on the head.

[Thirdstar]

Brilig, on 25 January 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

Great post. I think you hit the nail on the head.

Yes there's certainly a nail in the OP's head. I mean what other explanation is there for the actual post?

Edited by Thirdstar, 25 January 2013 - 11:12 PM.

[Utilyan]

I pug, I was going to take advice but........I hate whiners so damn much. Whiners and those follow the crowd weenies who can't think for thier damn self.

F' y'all


All shoot GOLF, all shoot bravo = Pro .........yeah come teach me MF.

[p4r4g0n]

OP, your definition of teamwork and contribution to a larger whole essentially reads as join a clan / corp / faction and get on VOIP and anyone who doesn't do those things basically should just settle for the crumbs so to speak.

Until they roll out CW, I won't say that your presumption is wrong but the essential thing most solo PUGs want when it comes to matches is B A L A N C E. Personally, I don't give a damn whether the rest of the team or the opfor is a premade or not, I just want balanced matches which actually give me an opportunity to be able to have some pleasure in playing.

As far as the metagame is concerned, all I can say is that any game that treats casuals as fodder and disposables is probably going to have a tough time succeeding (edit: especially when the game uses a F2P model). Let's all hope MWO isn't going down that route.

By the way, you shouldn't assume that just because people currently solo PUG and Lone Wolf, that it is their intention to do so forever.

FWLM ftw

Edited by p4r4g0n, 25 January 2013 - 11:34 PM.

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

BlackBeltJones, on 25 January 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Remember how you could chat with the random team members in L4D? Why is that so hard? Wouldn't that mute the entire PUG/Premade debate?

pretty much

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

p4r4g0n, on 25 January 2013 - 11:31 PM, said:

OP, your definition of teamwork and contribution to a larger whole essentially reads as join a clan / corp / faction and get on VOIP and anyone who doesn't do those things basically should just settle for the crumbs so to speak.

Until they roll out CW, I won't say that your presumption is wrong but the essential thing most solo PUGs want when it comes to matches is B A L A N C E. Personally, I don't give a damn whether the rest of the team or the opfor is a premade or not, I just want balanced matches which actually give me an opportunity to be able to have some pleasure in playing.

As far as the metagame is concerned, all I can say is that any game that treats casuals as fodder and disposables is probably going to have a tough time succeeding (edit: especially when the game uses a F2P model). Let's all hope MWO isn't going down that route.

By the way, you shouldn't assume that just because people currently solo PUG and Lone Wolf, that it is their intention to do so forever.

FWLM ftw

I can entirely agree with you here. And maybe most solo Pugger's arn't going to lone wolf it for life. But all these cries for balance... they're not being properly focused.

Everyone is focused on the NOW, on where things are sitting right this moment with the game. And that's great, you guys want change, hell I want change. but your focus is in the wrong timeframe.

We don't need to focus on absolute balance NOW, why? Because the endgame is Community Warfare. And balance needs to be focused towards that endgame, to focus on team balance right now, does not work, because of the nature of CW and what it will bring to the table.

As the game currently sits with the 4man setup. the game is "relatively" balanced. If someone brings a light, a light is what the enemy get's to bring... It's based on what weightclasses are being brought. While not "Perfect" balance, at least it's better than the 8man's "Free for all bring whatever you want, tonnage/battlevalue/weightclass be damned!" matching we currently have over in the 8man side of things.

So as things sit, right now, the "Balance" of the 4mans/pug setup is in an "ok" place.

I honestly hate using the word "Balance" for this kind of discussion because "Balanced" games, are boring. Chess is a balanced game, Checkers is a balanced game, Rock,Paper,Scissors is balanced... There have been no major innovations in these games for over 100+ years. And grand masters at chess focus on opening moves and closing techniques and spend their entire lifetimes studying all these moves that, while solid strategy's... are the same as they have been for the past 100+ years.

I think what you guys really want is a "Fairness" and most of us equate fair to balanced, when that's not really it. But is it fair that if one team get's a spider, another get's a jenner? Is it fair that one team may get a hunchback while another get's a Centurian?

The fairness of MWO as it sits right now is... decent, it's far from perfect, but it's getting there, and ELO matchmaking will help,

Even to take things so far as Tabletop, and Battle Value system there, BV1 put Innersphere players at a disadvantage and players complained, BV2 came out, and clan players are complaining about it.

Nothing's going to be perfect, nothing's going to make everyone happy. So learn to work within the limits of the game guys.

To tie this back to what I was saying earlier in this post. We shouldn't be worrying about the "NOW" when it comes to team structures, we should be projecting what we're seeing now, and how things should be when Community Warfare hits.

[p4r4g0n]

Since there is no fixed timeline for CW (nothing announced so far is firm time-wise as far as I can see), there is definitely a need to adopt some measures to enhance the enjoyment factor of the game as it is NOW.

If even experienced players are getting frustrated by their perceived imbalanced matches and consequently, reducing or stopping play entirely given the status quo, what would you think the average new player goes through? Current game state is doing MWO more harm than good IMO and this should be addressed.

Balance does not have to mean absolute equality on both sides nor should it be in an online game. It is the extreme mismatches that need to be avoided as they provide zero enjoyment. Losing is not an issue if the match is close and enjoyable, losing when you the entire team is dead in 2 mins from start is not (as an example).

My main play time is not NA prime time nor do I play much during weekends usually but I have had the opportunity to play during these times and honestly, there's not much enjoyment to be had.

Looking forward to the EU servers for the (hopefully) lower latencies and more even matches.

Edit: I am looking forward to Phase 3 in the hope that it will help but we will see.

Edited by p4r4g0n, 26 January 2013 - 12:08 AM.

[Bluescuba]

Here is my problem with pugs...

Played a game of conquest on Caustic last night. We started on the factory side, a 4 man partial and 4 pugs. So I give a quick typed order at the start that we take kappa and theta then defend from D6. This is a perfect strategy as from D6 you can overwatch all 3 resourse points, plus if the enemy tries to take or hold theta they have to fight with a heat disadvantage.

So what happens? Well we take kappa, but the enemy rushed theta... which is still no a problem as due to the location we should be able to push them off (which we did). However, they reinforced the push on theta their assaults slowly catching up. At first I couldnt work out why we were not blunting the push, we killed a couple of the enemy but then started losing mechs, I died during our second counter attack on theta. When I died it became apparent why we were losing at theta. Two pugs had totally ignored the plan and had run off to cap epsilon and the enemy base. Giving the enemy a numerical advantage at theta.

In chat I asked what they thought they were doing and why they didnt follow the plan. The answer was a flippant "well I would have if you werent going into the crater". Firstly defending from D6 would have meant that they would have been on the edge of the crater not in it. What made matters worse is that after the rest of the team died leaving it 2 vs 4; what did the two mental giants do? They went to theta to fight 2 vs 4, can you guess what happened, they died miserably each doing barely 50 points of damage.

So rather than fight in accordance with the plan were we would have held 3 points, and had an initial advantage of 6 vs 5 then 8 vs 5 once the mechs capping kappa had returned. It started as 4 vs 5 then 6 v 5 (where some of our mechs already had heavy damage) to 5 vs 8 (having lost a mech with more mechs carrying heavy damage). At this point barring a miracle we had lost, we managed to kill 4 mechs and damage the rest to a reasonable degree.

The reason we lost falls squarely on the shoulders of the puggers. My win loss ration is 1000/450 and more than 50% of those loses are due to puggers running around like headless chickens.

So I am sorry that I have no confidence in having puggers plugging the gaps in my team during community warfare matches. It is just as well my unit can field up to 3 full 12 man teams and therefore when it comes to CW matches we will not have to be subjected to the vagaries pug player skills.

[The Amazing Atomic Spaniel]

Bluescuba, on 26 January 2013 - 01:30 AM, said:

The reason we lost falls squarely on the shoulders of the puggers. My win loss ration is 1000/450 and more than 50% of those loses are due to puggers running around like headless chickens.

The problem here is that you are expecting puggers to take the game as seriously as you do and to play it in the way that you do. But many won't and it's never going to happen that people will feel obliged to play the game the way you want rather than the way they want. If you want teams that will follow orders you should really go and play 8 mans. Open pug matches will never deliver what you are looking for.

[Revorn]

Yeh, we Puggers are bad ppl, we are running in cycles at our Startlocation making a Lasershow into the Backsides of our Teammates and try not to run into any Walls, well at least somtimes.



But i guess, the only reason, why the humble Preamdes are allowed to play with us Godlike-Pugs is, they wouldnt find a Mach in their elitistic 8 vs 8 Thing. And PGI have a hearth for the lonely Premades So please stay polite, while you have the Honor, to be elected to play with us Pugs.

Edited by Revorn, 26 January 2013 - 03:17 AM.

[Vessiel]

i'm in favor to play with premades if they are on both teams, and if they are paying me a % of their income based on my performance, i'm a lonewolf and i want my pay from those who employ me (simil-lore) xD

[z3a1ot]

Be patient, when ingame VOIP comes people will be more organised. As for me i always try to do my best for the team and above all i try to have fun in this game, that is the purpose of playing i think. Wait for the end product and then we will see.

[SmoothCriminal]

surely ELO will help this. Premades will have higher scores and so move up the ranks. PUGs with moderate scores can fill their teams, and thats ok as long as the premade takes the responsibility of letting their lone wolves know the plan.

Lower skilled players will be kept in games with other lower skilled players.

[Critical Fumble]

SmoothCriminal, on 26 January 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

surely ELO will help this. Premades will have higher scores and so move up the ranks. PUGs with moderate scores can fill their teams, and thats ok as long as the premade takes the responsibility of letting their lone wolves know the plan.

Lower skilled players will be kept in games with other lower skilled players.

I thought about that, and, to a large degree I think it'll work that way.

However, I can't help but think that if a top shelf 4-man dropped, and the other side was average players, what would be the easiest way for a mathematical simulation to balance teams? Four solo drop rambos :-3

[SmoothCriminal]

Critical Fumble, on 26 January 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:

I thought about that, and, to a large degree I think it'll work that way.

However, I can't help but think that if a top shelf 4-man dropped, and the other side was average players, what would be the easiest way for a mathematical simulation to balance teams? Four solo drop rambos :-3

haha well that would certainly keep the gameplay interesting. But I consider myself to be a good pugger, and my KDR is only 1.3 odd. Premade peeps will have it waay above that. You'd need some epic rambos to counter it!