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Pay To Win: Revisited


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#1 80Bit

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 01:40 PM

I recently posted a C-Bill and MC Guide over on the Guides forum. As part of that guide I took a good look at MC and its value.

When the Yen-Lo-Wang was released as the first MC only mech, it fired up the “Pay To Win” debate. Now, three months later, we have five Hero Mechs. I thought now may be a good time to review and ask again, does Mechwarrior Online have “Pay To Win” elements?


1. Definition of Pay To Win.
A major sticking point in the P2W debate is the definition of P2W. Some people consider anything that can be used in gameplay but can’t be earned without spending money, instantly P2W. Others view only items that give a clear gameplay advantage a P2W item. There is the added caveat that some people consider gameplay advantage items OK if they can be also earned with in game money, while others don’t want real work money to let you buy anything but “fluff”, since that is “paying for power”.

While you can feel free to argue for your definition of P2W in this thread, for my analysis I am using my opinion, which is that an item is “Pay 2 Win” if two conditions are met.

First: The item can only be bought with real world money and can’t be reasonably earned for free.

Second: The item can be shown to give a noticeable gameplay advantage over all free alternatives.



Please note the words reasonably, and noticeable. I say reasonably earned for free because some things which can be earned for free can’t be earned in any reasonable amount of time. A good example is the high end modules. And I say noticeable gameplay advantage because a lot of things give tiny advantages that are too small to seriously consider. An example would be the MC only camo patterns.

We should also define the word “win”. For this analysis I am considering “win” only as it applies to winning the current Assault and Conquest matches in the game. If your definition of “win” is something else, like unlocking all the mechs or having a 10/1 KDR, that is outside the scope of this thread.

2. What Can MC Get You?
To see if any MC item meets both those criteria, let’s run down what you can get with MC. The following list is from the C-Bill and MC Guide.

MC is used to buy the following:

Vanity cockpit items.

New Mech bays.

Premium Account Time.

New paint patterns and colors.

Conversion of Mech Specific XP to Generic XP.

New Mechs (Including Hero Mechs).



3. Do MC Items Give You a Gameplay Advantage?

First we can easily mark off a few items on the list. Mech bays, Premium Time, and vanity cockpit items clearly do not help anyone win inside of a match.

Next we look at camo patterns and colors. Some of the camo patterns can confer a gameplay advantage. The Dazzle pattern for example, can make it harder to see and target specific parts of some mechs, or even make it hard to tell which direction they are facing. I personally thing the advantage is so small it does not meet my second criteria for P2W, but others may disagree.

Then we have Mech XP to GXP conversion. This may not look like P2W on the surface, but it has the potential to be. Right now, the available modules are definitely useful, but again, I don’t think they present a noticeable gameplay advantage. If in the future they become more important though, it could turn into P2W because the natural rate of GXP gain for a free player is so low it is not reasonable to include as a “free alternative”, and thus GXP conversion would meet both my requirements. I hope this does not happen.

Finally we have the MC item that sparked off the P2W debate in the first place. Do any of the Hero mechs meet both requirements? Hero mechs do meet the first requirement right now. Some hero mechs can do things no free alternative can, such as the Muromets dual arm gauss, or the Wang’s arm mounted AC/20. But do those unique abilities make the mechs meet the second requirement? Do any Hero mechs give a clear and noticeable gameplay advantage over all free alternatives? I personally do not think so, but I look forward to reading your arguments about it.


4. Conclusion.
In my opinion, Mechwarrior Online does not have Pay To Win right now. But I think that two of the MC only systems, XP to GXP conversion, and Hero Mechs, have the potential to become Pay To Win in the future. So far I think PGI has done a good job of making Hero Mechs unique but not overpowered, and modules useful but not necessary. I hope they continue to walk that fine line, so all players have a level playing field.

Edited by 80Bit, 26 January 2013 - 04:37 PM.


#2 Dirkdaring

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 01:43 PM

Wait til clantech comes in and its only purchasable with mc (my guess)....

Edited by Dirkdaring, 26 January 2013 - 02:12 PM.


#3 Antony Weiner

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 01:45 PM

Good post. ;)

View PostDirkdaring, on 26 January 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

Wait til clantech comes in and its only publishable with mc (my guess)....


That would be a PR suicide that would lose them a significant portion of player-base (like for real, not just whining on the forums).

#4 RiceyFighter

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 01:48 PM

I support Hero mech sales. It a great way to make money, but the mechs are not in any shape over powered. Yes hero mechs are exclusive to paying customers, but the other mechs that are buy able with C-Bills are just as good as hero mechs.

#5 BatWing

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 01:50 PM

Hey, I am sorry. I didn t even read your wall-text post, however i think whatever is your discussion you got a wrong approach.

Why calling it "Pay To Win" ??

In this game actually there is absolutely nothing to Win, why you should even bother paying anything??

I mean, if there was some content, some story going on, some feature, some game mode able to justify all of the time we are spending on that platform.

If there was any motivation to Win anything, i may be reading your post... but man, what the h.ell are you talking about??

If you pay for something at this stage of this game, you have to blame yourself period.

#6 Team Leader

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 01:53 PM

View PostDirkdaring, on 26 January 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

Wait til clantech comes in and its only publishable with mc (my guess)....

If that happened I would actually quit, permanently. That would be horrible!

#7 Mr 144

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 01:58 PM

Strange that you placed GXP conversion in more importance to the decievingly simple mech bay purchase. The four bay limitation, coupled with the need to grind variants for the elite (and to a lesser extent, master) skills is very unreasonable for a pure "free" player. Personally, I'm OK with that, as PGI needs to make money, but given the re-sale value on mechs, it is unreasonable for F2P players to grind multiple chassis's in a reasonable amount of time. Multiple free accounts for each chassis is an option, but then GXP gain for modules is that much further out of reach.

In terms of Hero Mechs...The Ilya Triple UAC is pushing the limit...but I gotta say, I bought one ;)

Mr 144

#8 Elkarlo

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:02 PM

For the Camo:
You have 5 Base colors when you paint a Mech the first two Colors in Blue and the last (Accents ) Green
then you got a Basic Camo too. Cost 625k Cbills so reasonable priced.
When you have the PC-Gamer Colors unlocked you can even make a good Grey, Black Camo on every Mech for Free.


For the Hero Mechs: Since the Fix on the Flame Missle Port only the IM is one of the Best Chassi ( The Phracts are all very close together) every other Hero Mech is slightly worse then the Best Chassi of the Class.

Mechbay:
You can Master 3 Mech Chassis with the 4 Mechbays as long as you have two Mechs from one Class.
And for 7 USD you can have 4-5 Mech to Masterlevel.
( When you buy it on bonus MC 20% trades you can have 5)

Edited by Elkarlo, 26 January 2013 - 02:04 PM.


#9 Antony Weiner

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:03 PM

View PostMr 144, on 26 January 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

Strange that you placed GXP conversion in more importance to the decievingly simple mech bay purchase. The four bay limitation, coupled with the need to grind variants for the elite (and to a lesser extent, master) skills is very unreasonable for a pure "free" player. Personally, I'm OK with that, as PGI needs to make money, but given the re-sale value on mechs, it is unreasonable for F2P players to grind multiple chassis's in a reasonable amount of time. Multiple free accounts for each chassis is an option, but then GXP gain for modules is that much further out of reach.

In terms of Hero Mechs...The Ilya Triple UAC is pushing the limit...but I gotta say, I bought one ;)

Mr 144


Not really. Ilya is a niche mech, really. My Stalkers, Atlases, and even Hunchbaks tear IMs apart just as any other mech. Ilya might seem a bit OP to you, since you are obviously a ballistic driver; however, I would say that Ilya was a masterpiece of making a hero mech interesting but not pay 2 win.

#10 ElmoWithAGun

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:04 PM

Wouldn't calling it "play to win" mean that those that pay would have some benefit over those that don't pay? This would surely kill the game quick as the purpose of the marketing in free-to-play game is to support the developers.

#11 Punkass

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:07 PM

One of the things that I've loved about this game so far is the lack of P2W mechanics in the game. So far, anyways. While MXP to GXP conversion may be the things that stands out the most, I haven't encountered anything in the game that gives a serious advantage over anything that can be obtained for free.

Yes, hero mechs have the potential to become P2W, but as it stands right now, there is no hero mech that I would consider to be overpowered. I've destroyed plenty of Fangs and Flames, Wangs, Ilyas and Death Knells.They still have the same number of hitpoints and are still limited by the same mechanics in mech building that every other mech is limited by. Unique hard point layouts offer the ability of field a unique weapon's build, but the weapons themselves aren't doing more damage or are no more accurate than a mech bought with Cbills.

While premium time allows a player to accumulate Cbills and XP at a faster rate, at the end of the day, they become no more powerful that someone who didn't pay a dime, they just max out faster.

A hypothetical example of something that would be P2W would be MC only weapons that do 20% more damage, generate 20% less heat and weigh half as much. Then you're talking about something that actually gives an advantage in game play over people who didn't buy MC.

#12 HiplyRustic

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:08 PM

View PostBatWing, on 26 January 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Hey, I am sorry. I didn t even read your wall-text post, however i think whatever is your discussion you got a wrong approach.

Why calling it "Pay To Win" ??

In this game actually there is absolutely nothing to Win, why you should even bother paying anything??

I mean, if there was some content, some story going on, some feature, some game mode able to justify all of the time we are spending on that platform.

If there was any motivation to Win anything, i may be reading your post... but man, what the h.ell are you talking about??

If you pay for something at this stage of this game, you have to blame yourself period.



Google translate does not work as well as you may think it does. I only say that because this is the third post I have read from you in the past ten minutes that makes you look like you are just lashing out at people for no good reason at all, and you're not even doing that particularly well. Surely this can't be your intent.

I'f I'm completely off base and English is in fact your first language, stop posting until you sober up.

Edited by HiplyRustic, 26 January 2013 - 02:09 PM.


#13 Adrienne Vorton

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:10 PM

View PostDirkdaring, on 26 January 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

Wait til clantech comes in and its only publishable with mc (my guess)....

PGI themselves stated that this is a no-go and will absolutely NOT happen...

on topic:

nope,i can´t see any p2w features in MWO... pay for time yes, p2w, no... hero mechs are unique, but far away from superior...

IF we were playing stockmechs, and ONLY clanmechs would be sold for MC ONLY... that would be p2w at it´s best ;)

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 26 January 2013 - 02:16 PM.


#14 Ravn

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:11 PM

View PostBatWing, on 26 January 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Hey, I am sorry. I didn t even read your wall-text post, however i think whatever is your discussion you got a wrong approach.

Why calling it "Pay To Win" ??

In this game actually there is absolutely nothing to Win, why you should even bother paying anything??

I mean, if there was some content, some story going on, some feature, some game mode able to justify all of the time we are spending on that platform.

If there was any motivation to Win anything, i may be reading your post... but man, what the h.ell are you talking about??

If you pay for something at this stage of this game, you have to blame yourself period.

Yaaaaa, you should have read the post.

#15 Mr 144

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:11 PM

View PostAntony Weiner, on 26 January 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:


Not really. Ilya is a niche mech, really. My Stalkers, Atlases, and even Hunchbaks tear IMs apart just as any other mech. Ilya might seem a bit OP to you, since you are obviously a ballistic driver; however, I would say that Ilya was a masterpiece of making a hero mech interesting but not pay 2 win.


Obviously a Ballisitc Driver? I pilot everything ;) I wasn't implying the Ilya is over-powered per se, but rather it is arguablly best variant in class, and is the only mech that can sport triple UACs effectively giving it THE best burst DPS in the game....and no, the Jaeger will not be able to surpass it.

Like I said...it toes the line IMO, but again, it got me to drop some coin on it (I like all the phracts), so kudos to them.

Mr 144

#16 Dirkdaring

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:14 PM

View PostAdrienne Vorton, on 26 January 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

PGI themselves stated that this is a no-go and will absolutely NOT happen...


Right. But you have regular run of the mill mechs right now that you can only buy with mc. Any clan mech puts these to shame - I definitely see it happening.

#17 Ravn

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:16 PM

I don't see this happening at all. PGI will not flush everything they have built to completely sell out when clan mechs show up. Maybe they will be part of the achievement program.

#18 Antony Weiner

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:23 PM

View PostMr 144, on 26 January 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:


Obviously a Ballisitc Driver? I pilot everything ;) I wasn't implying the Ilya is over-powered per se, but rather it is arguablly best variant in class, and is the only mech that can sport triple UACs effectively giving it THE best burst DPS in the game....and no, the Jaeger will not be able to surpass it.

Like I said...it toes the line IMO, but again, it got me to drop some coin on it (I like all the phracts), so kudos to them.

Mr 144


Like I said, obviously a ballistic driver. :P 1X is the phract that I am most effective with ("the best"), and 2X is the most versatile, imo. I killed more IMs with my AC20 1X one on one then I ever died to (in fact, I died to an IM only several times), mostly due to constant lucky jams on their uac5s (on-paper values do not translate directly into the game). Would take a 1X over IM any day, since I love that AC20 and do not need 3 giant guns.

This is a very subjective conversation, which only proves that IM is not p2w.

Edited by Antony Weiner, 26 January 2013 - 02:25 PM.


#19 Adrienne Vorton

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:24 PM

View PostDirkdaring, on 26 January 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:


Right. But you have regular run of the mill mechs right now that you can only buy with mc. Any clan mech puts these to shame - I definitely see it happening.

as i stated above.... hero mechs are far away from superior from others... unique yes, and there is nothing bad about it

i don´t earn any heroes, and honestly i don´t even call them different than the other variants...neither do i treat them different... a dragon is a dragon, and a phract a phract, i really don´t care about the variant much...

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 26 January 2013 - 02:28 PM.


#20 Kyryos

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:27 PM

If clan tech is only purchasable with MC ill probably just end my life. lol jk but it better be buyable with cbills





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