299 replies to this topic

[Corvus Antaka]

Vapor Trail, on 29 January 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

And an increase of 50-75m max when looking at a decrease of 600m from a normal range? For two modules with a pricetag in excess eight times at minimum (probably sixteen times, and that's without even looking at the unlock costs) that of ECM *Hilarious laughter*

Good point.

[NocturnalBeast]

Green Mamba, on 29 January 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

Just Remove all of ECM and be done with it., since you don't want to do anything about STREAKS

Why don't we make all mechs the same speed, have the same fire power and heat dissipation. While you are at it, give them all free paint jobs and a 200% xp and cbill bonus. Even better, make it so you can only shoot at an enemy mech when it is shooting at you, so you both take the same damage simultaneously and give a huge end game bonus for every game that ends in a tie. Make sure both teams have juice afterwards and then go out for pizza together.

That should satisfy most of the forum whiners.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Orzorn, on 29 January 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

Garth himself said they thought it was.

As I said before; I don't believe this is the final 'change' to ECM. PPCs were slated to get an EMP effect before Garth ever even made that comment.

Uhm..no, he didn't say it was broken or that PGI thought it was broken, he said he was making the team aware of the suggestions and complaints concerning ECM. Bryan was pretty clear in Ask the Devs 30, ECM is under review and may recieve minor tweaks and additional counters/disruptors. Not a word from anyone with PGI or IGP that implies or agrees that ECM is broken in any way.

That's YOU putting words into the mouths, or hands in this case, of the devs to agree with your argument that ECM is broken, despite the fact that they've not said any such thing. This is why it's always dangerous for a dev to ever make a comment, they get abused and misused and thrown back in their faces when what the reader WANTED to see was never there in the first place. I've experienced this first hand working on mods in the past, posting on the forum that I was thinking about changing the sky from black to blue, only to have people scream and yell at me because the PROMISE I gave them that the sky would be rainbow colored was broken. See, you just did that with what Garth said concerning ECM, exact same thing. And I have no doubt that you will be screaming about the rainbows you aren't going to get later as well.

[Khobai]

Yes im sure firing a difficult-to-aim weapon at an unidentified blue splotch 1000m on the other side of the map is going to be an effective counter to ECM.

[ShadowSpirit]

When did BattleTech become about ECM and not mechs? Why implement all these gadgets for one, arguably, questionable (ECM) implementation?

Make ECM behave like it does in the board game. ECM issue solved.

Make shared radar require a C3 Master & C3 Slave. Mechs without the enhanced equipment do not share targeting data! LRMs constrained! Make up for all the lost tonnage in the DDC!

... not to mention the disparity in resources. The cost of the modules is more than most mechs!

.... tactics and strategy in this game actually went down when ECM was introduced. We used to see base defense, XYZ (landmark) defense. In my experience, there is far less of an effort to organize now with ECM.

Edited by ShadowSpirit, 29 January 2013 - 04:34 PM.

[Garth Erlam]

Whoa whoa, who said we aren't adding rainbows?

[Khobai]

Quote

Whoa whoa, who said we aren't adding rainbows?

PPCs should totally shoot Nyan Cats

[Orzorn]

Kristov Kerensky, on 29 January 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

Uhm..no, he didn't say it was broken or that PGI thought it was broken,

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1750287

Quote

ECM being used on all ECM-able Mechs does show that it is overly powerful. The reason no changes have been made is it takes time to figure out what, exactly, is making that the reason. Is it the lock prevention? The 'cloak'? The range it works at? The weight? Crit space? Variants that use it? That it makes LRMs incapable of lock? SSRMs?

Overly powerful; overpowered, same thing. Too much power. The bottom line is Garth himself said they thought it was too strong, and that they were going to figure out what to change, and that they were going to change it.

Is this the only change? I doubt it. Will they wait and see what this change does and see whether it should be the only change? You bet.

Edited by Orzorn, 29 January 2013 - 04:38 PM.

[Psikez]

Garth Erlam, on 29 January 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

Whoa whoa, who said we aren't adding rainbows?

Oh god please let it be a commander artillery ability

RAINBOW SHELLS INC ON ENEMY AT G6 GET TO COVER

Edited by Psikez, 29 January 2013 - 04:36 PM.

[Tennex]

ProtoformX, on 29 January 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

Not if you can aim. PPC cool down is only 3 seconds, while it's ECM-countering effect lasts for 5 seconds.

wow.. thanks for stealing my sig.

[Kyone Akashi]

ShadowSpirit, on 29 January 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

Make ECM behave like it does in the board game. ECM issue solved.
Make shared radar require a C3 Master & C3 Slave. Mechs without the enhanced equipment do not share targeting data! LRMs constrained! Make up for all the lost tonnage in the DDC!

I do not think that unlinking shared target data is required or even in the game's best interest. Not unless each and every single 'Mech pilot in MWO gets to enjoy the benefits of an integrated VoIP "radio" to at least tell his lancemates what's going on.

However, after careful reading of ECM description in the TT, I agree with you that there are ways to bring MWO's implementation closer to the tabletop whilst simultaneously "fixing" the issues currently posed by the Guardian suite.
If we simply assume that each and every BattleMech in MWO comes with C3 by default, have ECM scramble this data, essentially disabling Identify-Friend-Foe for every enemy in vicinity of the jammer, so that pilots may still lock on to an ECM-equipped 'Mech ... but (1) they cannot spot the source of the signal, (2) any and all position markers are wiped from their mini-map for the duration of the jam and (3) your onboard-computer will be unable to discern enemy from ally, not showing any names and allowing you to target any and all 'Mechs in range - forcing the pilot to rely on visual identification and reflexes/guesswork.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Band-aid fix is band-aid. Should not use other items/make new items to fix overpowered items.

The devs needed to stop this chain of thought. And this goes back further than ECM. You should not fix Streaks and LRM's with ECM, You should fix Streaks and LRM's on their own. Then you should add ECM and it won't require a bunch of added crap to try and fix LRM's and Streaks.

Then you won't need to add EMP to PPC's to try and fix ECM because it's over powered.

This line of "fixing" just leads to problems down the line.

it's frustrating.

[StalaggtIKE]

Kristov Kerensky, on 29 January 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

Yeah..see...your stand is that ECM IS broken and must be rebalanced.
PGI's stand and my own as well, along with many others, is that ECM is not broken and doesn't need to be rebalanced.

Common sense would tell you that they're plenty of people on both sides. I guess that's why ECM questions had the most likes, for 3+ weeks in a row. And yes, Garth concluded that ECM needed to be "fixed."

Quote

We've been told for a while now that PPCs would be getting an EMP effect, it's something that the weapon's supposed to do, part of what makes it so deadly, and we'd figured that it would cause ECM to fail for whowever long the EMO effect lasted. Hey, we were right!

Yes. Why are you stating this? The problem is it appears PPC are going to only affect ECM. This game is focusing too much around ECM. Apparently it is their pièce de résistance. Which is why they are afraid to touch it, but instead keep adding and tweaking things to counter it. They need to first stop, fix ECM and then proceed. Stop adding FoM.

[Gwaihir]

Kiyoshi Mizumura, on 29 January 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

Lieutenant Dixon Maxwell sat disconsolately on the wedge-shaped foot of his Stalker. The huge cigar-shaped `Mech loomed overhead like a heavy metal zeppelin, and Dixon stared up at the underside of its bullet-shaped snout. Metal gleamed in the dim light of the Mechbay, and the scent of sweat and the tangy aroma of `Mech coolant assaulted his nostrils. He tipped his head back, his skull striking the Stalker's lower leg with a muffled clang.

Fat and barrel-chested, Sgt. Geoffrey Barnes settled in beside him. "Somethin' on your mind, Lieutenant?"

Dixon let out a slow sigh. "Yeah, I guess you could say that. Sarge, I know you're not a Mechwarrior, but how do I deal with an ECM-equipped opforce?"

"We fixed that issue your targeting computer was having tracking fast targets. Y'want my expert opinion? Just shoot `em," Barnes replied with a chuckle. He glanced upwards at Maxwell's stalker then did a double-take. The bulk of five LRM-20s turned the `Mech's normally sleek outline into a bulbous caricature. Barnes found his face resting squarely in the palm of his hand before he even realized he'd moved.

"Lieutenant," Barnes asked, "Y'ever considered bringin' a secondary weapon?"

"Yeah," Dixon replied. "But the Streak SRMs weren't working well so I stripped them out."

Barnes shook his head. "Y'tried any normal SRMs? They spread out more but that just means they can hit a light in the legs--and a legged `Mech is a dead `Mech. Heck, even some lasers'll help you do the job. Just lead the target a little and let `em walk right into the beam. I promise your targeting computer's fixed, you won't have the same problem hitting anything even if you can't target it. Heck, I bet we could mount a couple of ER PPCs in the arms if you're really worried. Some charged particles ought to interfere with the ECM somethin' awful."

This didn't get enough love in this most awful of threads.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

If there are no concerns about ECM from PGI why have we had 2-3 patches adding things that are suppose to tone down/counter ECM?

I honestly don't care which side you fall on, on the ECM thing.

But I still think adding ECM as an obvious way to try and balance Streaks/LRM's is a terrible way to balance the game. And they are continuing that style of balancing with each subsequent patch.

It's not good developing.

[Stingz]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 29 January 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

But I still think adding ECM as an obvious way to try and balance Streaks/LRM's is a terrible way to balance the game. And they are continuing that style of balancing with each subsequent patch.

You will be glad to have ECM when the Streak-4/6s and no min-range LRMs come rolling in. Lock-On weapons in general need work though.

[ShadowSpirit]

Kyone Akashi, on 29 January 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

I do not think that unlinking shared target data is required or even in the game's best interest. Not unless each and every single 'Mech pilot in MWO gets to enjoy the benefits of an integrated VoIP "radio" to at least tell his lancemates what's going on.

However, after careful reading of ECM description in the TT, I agree with you that there are ways to bring MWO's implementation closer to the tabletop whilst simultaneously "fixing" the issues currently posed by the Guardian suite.
If we simply assume that each and every BattleMech in MWO comes with C3 by default, have ECM scramble this data, essentially disabling Identify-Friend-Foe for every enemy in vicinity of the jammer, so that pilots may still lock on to an ECM-equipped 'Mech ... but (1) they cannot spot the source of the signal, (2) any and all position markers are wiped from their mini-map for the duration of the jam and (3) your onboard-computer will be unable to discern enemy from ally, not showing any names and allowing you to target any and all 'Mechs in range - forcing the pilot to rely on visual identification and reflexes/guesswork.

Seems more reasonable than what we have now. I can't help but agree this would be better than the current blanket of "invisibility." One author said it best, "My PPC which is hard to aim will briefly counter the EMC of a blue blob 800 meters away." Yes, the landscape of MWO has become a heat vision blue blob .... for what?

Why so much effort for such a seemingly small thing as ECM? Utilizing, countering, and adjust to ECM has become the centerpiece of MWO.... that is a bit of a shame IMO.

This should have been hashed out in closed beta. We dished (and dish) out money for things that are changing ... I guess I was a sucker?

Edited by ShadowSpirit, 29 January 2013 - 05:06 PM.

[Elkfire]

Is elitism a requirement for being a Goon, or just a bonus?

[Kristov Kerensky]

Orzorn, he doesn't say it's broken, he doesn't say it's over powered, he says it's overly powerful, which is not the same thing and you know it. He also says they are looking into why it's being used by every Mech that can use it, what makes it so much a must take item on those 5 particular Mechs, and even lists a number of things that must be looked at in order to try and figure out why this is so. I think it's because people think it's an automagical Win Button item, especially if they've glanced at the forums even once or run into certain forum users who are VERY vocal ingame about how OP ECM is and how it ruins the game, while they run around in Raven 3Ls exploiting known hitbox and netcode issues to make sure everyone knows how OP ECM is. Funny thing..we don't see them in Com 2Ds, Cicada 3Ms, Spider 5Ds or even the Atlas D-DC while they are doing this, it's the Raven 3L.

But hey, it's fine, ECM doesn't bother me, I can hit a 150kph Raven with gauss or ppcs at long range or close up, I have little problem hitting them with direct fire weapons...or with my LRM support builds either, where I've either got TAG myself or my teammates are using it. And soon, I'll be able to put those ERPPCs back on my LRM support builds

But as people have already pointed out, once they make PPCs negate that ECM, we'll see crying about PPCs being OP within a few hours. We should start a pool, place bets on exactly how long AFTER the patch is released with that change before the PPCs are OP posts start. Of course, we'd have to make it clear that the already EXISTING posts about how OP PPCs are due to the incoming change are, because you know they'll be starting up real soon...

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Kristov Kerensky, on 29 January 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

Orzorn, he doesn't say it's broken, he doesn't say it's over powered, he says it's overly powerful, which is not the same thing and you know it. He also says they are looking into why it's being used by every Mech that can use it, what makes it so much a must take item on those 5 particular Mechs, and even lists a number of things that must be looked at in order to try and figure out why this is so. I think it's because people think it's an automagical Win Button item, especially if they've glanced at the forums even once or run into certain forum users who are VERY vocal ingame about how OP ECM is and how it ruins the game, while they run around in Raven 3Ls exploiting known hitbox and netcode issues to make sure everyone knows how OP ECM is. Funny thing..we don't see them in Com 2Ds, Cicada 3Ms, Spider 5Ds or even the Atlas D-DC while they are doing this, it's the Raven 3L.

But hey, it's fine, ECM doesn't bother me, I can hit a 150kph Raven with gauss or ppcs at long range or close up, I have little problem hitting them with direct fire weapons...or with my LRM support builds either, where I've either got TAG myself or my teammates are using it. And soon, I'll be able to put those ERPPCs back on my LRM support builds

But as people have already pointed out, once they make PPCs negate that ECM, we'll see crying about PPCs being OP within a few hours. We should start a pool, place bets on exactly how long AFTER the patch is released with that change before the PPCs are OP posts start. Of course, we'd have to make it clear that the already EXISTING posts about how OP PPCs are due to the incoming change are, because you know they'll be starting up real soon...

Regardless of ECM bothering you, as a well-read person, who seems to understand gaming development, doesn't putting band-**** over broken mechanics instead of fixing the mechanics bother you for the long-term health of the game?